Permitless carry will affect those with a permit....

[chances R]

Just as the age requirements for 18 -20 yo knocked Minnesota from the states that recognize TN permits, locally the permitless carry will do the same with some businesses.  Where I work, it will now be posted NO WEAPONS ALLOWED.  I expect this from other businesses as those that start carrying openly to flaunt their 'freedom'.  Administrators, owners, etc. will start receiving complaints and will bend to the pressures, understandably.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by chances R
Mistake on my part pointed out by Chucktshoes

[Chucktshoes]

12 minutes ago, chances R said:

Just as the CCP knocked Minnesota from the states that recognize TN permits, locally the permitless carry will do the same with some businesses.  Where I work, it will now be posted NO WEAPONS ALLOWED.  I expect this from other businesses as those that start carrying openly to flaunt their 'freedom'.  Administrators, owners, etc. will start receiving complaints and will bend to the pressures, understandably.

 

While you’re busy making points on why the citizenry should be asking for permission slips from the government, you should at least get your facts correct. It wasn’t the CC Permit that caused Minnesota to drop recognition of the TN HCP. It was extending it to 18-20 year olds with a service connection. 

[joe4vol]

4 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

While you’re busy making points on why the citizenry should be asking for permission slips from the government, you should at least get your facts correct. It wasn’t the CC Permit that caused Minnesota to drop recognition of the TN HCP. It was extending it to 18-20 year olds with a service connection. 

I think that Washington dropped us at the same time 

[chances R]

9 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

While you’re busy making points on why the citizenry should be asking for permission slips from the government, you should at least get your facts correct. It wasn’t the CC Permit that caused Minnesota to drop recognition of the TN HCP. It was extending it to 18-20 year olds with a service connection. 

I did not make a point about 'permission slips"... that is a another topic.  I simply made the point that the expansion of permitless carry will have some negative side effects affecting the previous responsible individuals that sought out training.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

It is not a perfect world. People don't all respect other people, or their rights . Some people commit crime. Some people don't like guns. Some people don't like people carrying guns. Some people don't like being around people carrying guns - even if they are uniformed police. Some people don't like it that some people choose to not helpless and some people (and businesses) are more worried about perceived liability and the bottom line than anything else. And while we should all be able to do pretty much whatever we want as long as it does not harm others we all know that that is just not reality. 

So having said all of that , Since apparently the legislature is not going to implement "Constitutional Carry" by simply removing from TCA 39-17-1307  "A person commits an offense who carries, with the intent to go armed, a firearm or a club."  then we are operating under the hodgepodge of rules as currently written. And until they decide what exactly they are trying to accomplish with making it kind a sorta legal to carry without a permit in some places but not others then what I'd like to see is the signage have no power of law. They can ask you to leave at which point if you refuse you can be arrested for trespassing but the carrying past the sign would have no legal consequences. In fact I think a good way to get that ball rolling is to eliminate the restrictions on where you can carry if you have an "enhanced permit" or whatever they are calling the "standard" permit now. 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke

[hipower]

Can you 'splain enhanced vs standard in small words for me?

Really. I'd like a good interpretation of it.

[chances R]

The original (standard) permit which started in 96, is now referred to as the Enhanced Carry Permit - - - - simply a name change once the Concealed Carry Permit started in Jan 2020.  Different certification processes.  A few restrictions, the biggest being a CCP must be carried concealed only.  Bottom line, anyone that had an HCP before Jan 2020 now has an ECP.  The ECP is still available to anyone that wants to take the 8 hour class.

[hipower]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

The original (standard) permit which started in 96, is now referred to as the Enhanced Carry Permit - - - - simply a name change once the Concealed Carry Permit started in Jan 2020.  Different certification processes.  A few restrictions, the biggest being a CCP must be carried concealed only.  Bottom line, anyone that had an HCP before Jan 2020 now has an ECP.  The ECP is still available to anyone that wants to take the 8 hour class.

Good clear and concise. I like it.

So my 2 day, supposedly 16 hour class with the late, great, Buford Tune got me what is now an Enhanced Carry Permit? Name on the card might change when my renewal comes up in 2025?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

From 1996 until 2018(?) if you wanted to legally carry a pistol on your person either concealed or openly out in public you got a HCP (Handgun Carry Permit). Then they created a CCP (Concealed Carry Permit) that requires concealed carry and has further restrictions than the standard HCP had and no reciprocity with other states. 

So the governor and legislature allegedly want to pass "Constitutional Carry" so instead of eliminating the one sentence in TCA that would make it possible  they end up creating a new permit with less benefits and an ambiguous and confusing change to the law that now allows people over 21 who can legally own a pistol to carry them (most places but not public parks or greenways) but with further restrictions and it is all just a mess.  

 

Here's an idea that would not take a lot of legal or political gymnastics to accomplish. Make the ECP a TRUE "enhanced" permit. If you choose to take the class you can carry ANYWHERE not forbidden by Federal Law. ANYWHERE . Signs have no force of law anymore. You have reciprocity with other states. (I'd also suggest changing the "no alcohol" to simply "as long as you are under the legal limit to drive" like Pennsylvania and several other states but I also know that is very unlikely to happen) 

If you cannot afford the +/- $70 for the class plus the $100 for the Enhanced Permit or you just don't want to fool with getting it and you are a resident of TN (and you can legally own a pistol) then you would have the right to carry inside the borders of TN but with no reciprocity (not because I believe you shouldn't but because we cannot force other states to allow people from our state with no permit to carry there) but all other features and restrictions would be same as the current HCP is now. 

Pretty simple. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke

[chances R]

At this time, the CCP has the same reciprocity as the ECP except for North Dakota.  Hipower, correct.  You now have an ECP and name will be changed at your renewal or you could request a duplicate now - I think- and it would be changed.

[nod]

4 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

It is not a perfect world. People don't all respect other people, or their rights . Some people commit crime. Some people don't like guns. Some people don't like people carrying guns. Some people don't like being around people carrying guns - even if they are uniformed police. Some people don't like it that some people choose to not helpless and some people (and businesses) are more worried about perceived liability and the bottom line than anything else. And while we should all be able to do pretty much whatever we want as long as it does not harm others we all know that that is just not reality. 

So having said all of that , Since apparently the legislature is not going to implement "Constitutional Carry" by simply removing from TCA 39-17-1307  "A person commits an offense who carries, with the intent to go armed, a firearm or a club."  then we are operating under the hodgepodge of rules as currently written. And until they decide what exactly they are trying to accomplish with making it kind a sorta legal to carry without a permit in some places but not others then what I'd like to see is the signage have no power of law. They can ask you to leave at which point if you refuse you can be arrested for trespassing but the carrying past the sign would have no legal consequences. In fact I think a good way to get that ball rolling is to eliminate the restrictions on where you can carry if you have an "enhanced permit" or whatever they are calling the "standard" permit now. 

 

I guess I am just slow but what is the definition of "intent to go armed"? I can't wrap my head around that. If I holster my pistol I intending on leaving the house armed. 

I do have an Enhanced Carry Permit and I do carry but in my opinion TN has some really confusing laws.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

34 minutes ago, nod said:

 

I do have an Enhanced Carry Permit and I do carry but in my opinion TN has some really confusing laws.

And THAT is part of the problem, the fact that there is a lot of confusing stuff and that essentially everything in TN is illegal , there are just "exceptions" to the law . These laws were largely written to allow for discretion in certain circumstances and not in others but that is a discussion for another time and place. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke

[nod]

Thanks for replying. I moved here from Florida and their carry laws are much easier to understand.

[RED333]

7 hours ago, chances R said:

NO WEAPONS ALLOWED

Many years ago working at schools as an outside contractor, I asked a Police officer what was the difference between the knife I carried and the knife a student carried. The answer I was given was this, "mine is a tool, the student's is a weapon". The officer I asked also said at any time I could be charged with a weapons charge if needed.

I carry tools every day, I get on the tarmac at the airport and schools grounds with a van full of tools, all can be used as weapons, some as WMDs.

I for one am damn tired of worrying about what law I may or may not be breaking!!!

 

[deerslayer]

I was afraid more gun buster signs would pop up and, sure enough, I am seeing more of them.  This poorly written law is borderline idiotic, but the responses to it are even worse.  A left-leaning acquaintance and his buddy know I am a shooter and asked what I thought of the law.  They were horrified when I said I thought it was basically irrelevant.  "But criminals will be carrying guns" they both replied.  When I pointed out that Memphis had 330+ murders last year (most involving guns) and is on track to surpass that number this year and asked if criminals are not already carrying guns, they just sighed and shook their heads.  Whoever can't legally carry a gun now still won't be able to under the new law.  One acted like this was some sort of revelation.  I added that most of the new crime that will result from the new law will be from non-permit holders' confusion about it.  

Below is an example of the misunderstanding and outright misinformation about the law.  A church is beefing up security to get ready for the apparent armed invasion they will face when the law begins:

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/local-pastor-encourages-other-churches-add-security-before-permitless-carry-bill-goes-into-effect/BQZGDKPT6FHBJFNIE5TX2KKOD4/

And an erroneous assumption that people who have carry permits are all trained on how to use a gun:

https://www.wreg.com/news/gun-violence-surge-possible-with-new-permitless-carry-law-launch-warns-democratic-lawmaker/

Edited June 30, 2021 by deerslayer

[Grayfox54]

Well if more "No Guns" signs do go up, I don't want to business there anyway. 

[Erik88]

Don't the signs still have to meet specific criteria in order to be enforced? I didn't think "no guns allowed" was enough. 

This reminds me of 09 when the guns-in-bars laws passed. Give it some time and all the fear and confusion will pass. 

[deerslayer]

12 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Well if more "No Guns" signs do go up, I don't want to business there anyway. 

Agreed, but at this rate, we won’t be able to do business with any local banks by the end of the year.  

[chances R]

4 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Don't the signs still have to meet specific criteria in order to be enforced? I didn't think "no guns allowed" was enough. 

Yes, size requirement, gun buster logo, specific wording, statute notation 

[Chucktshoes]

I’m not encouraging anyone to violate any laws or the the wishes of any private entity, but concealed means concealed y’all. 

[nod]

3 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I’m not encouraging anyone to violate any laws or the the wishes of any private entity, but concealed means concealed y’all. 

Yep, in Florida all carry is concealed carry and I found myself in a couple of places where weapons were not allowed. I had something else on my mind and just walked right in. When I finally realized I was carrying I just stayed in line. As noted above, concealed means concealed.

[monkeylizard]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:40 PM, nod said:

I guess I am just slow but what is the definition of "intent to go armed"? I can't wrap my head around that. If I holster my pistol I intending on leaving the house armed. 

I do have an Enhanced Carry Permit and I do carry but in my opinion TN has some really confusing laws.

Cruel Hand Luke hit the right spot on this: The permit serves as a defense to the law, but carrying is still violating the law. I'm not fully up to speed on the permitless-carry (I have ECP, so don't really care enough to read the details yet) but I suspect it's similarly phrased to "provide a defense" rather than removing the violation in the first place.

In theory, a police officer can arrest you, a DA can charge you, and a judge will look at both of them like they're idiots and dismiss the case as the permit provides a valid defense. AFAIK, this has never happened.

In the real-world, it's a moot point because no DA in their right mind would EVER charge someone because they know they'll get ripped up one side and down the other by the judge, and no officer would ever arrest for it because they know no DA will ever prosecute it and they'll get ripped up one side and down the other by the DA or their command. But from a legal theory perspective, it's important to understand that the state of TN does NOT recognize carrying in public as a right

[Quavodus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't this go into effect Tomorrow?  

[Chucktshoes]

Yup 

[Garufa]

1 hour ago, Quavodus said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't this go into effect Tomorrow?  

It does.  I imagine by the end of the day there will be no one left alive in the State of Tennessee. Gonna be the Wild West don’t ya know.  The “news” and hand-wringers said so.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Garufa