TFA analysis of permitless carry

[Erik88]

3 hours ago, billyblazes said:

Signs barring guns have the force of law and apply to both open and concealed carry. 

Yes but the sign has to meet specific criteria. I'd guess that of all the places I see attempting to ban guns only about half get it right. 

[OLDNEWBIE]

So, If you permitless carry now and end up being caught by law enforcement in a park or prohibited space, maybe after having to use the weapon justifiably ......

Is it a fine and a slap on the wrist?, or something more severe endangering ability to carry legally in the future?

No one seems to know for sure but I know many who heard about the permitless carry and intend to do it but don't know all the asinine caveats! 

[FUJIMO]

33 minutes ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

So, If you permitless carry now and end up being caught by law enforcement in a park or prohibited space, maybe after having to use the weapon justifiably ......

Is it a fine and a slap on the wrist?, or something more severe endangering ability to carry legally in the future?

No one seems to know for sure but I know many who heard about the permitless carry and intend to do it but don't know all the asinine caveats! 

You can bet if you don't get the full penalty of the law right then they will at least make sure it stays on your record for any kind of red flag - domestic terrorist issue that could pop up later.

[billyblazes]

On a related note about keeping records to later use against transgressors, down in Florida those who have been identified as being at the capital on January 6, 2021 have had their concealed carry licenses suspended.  Mind you, this doesn’t necessarily mean the people having their license suspended broke any laws or were inside restricted space in the capital. It only reflects that they were in the vicinity at the time. 

“Nikki Fried Suspends 22 Concealed Carry Permits For Floridians Involved In Capitol Breach”

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/07/27/nikki-fried-concealed-carry-permits-capitol-breach/?fbclid=IwAR0bGA4EEyS1UWaNY0045QC6jYxQSTotCGNQ7QiL1JpAR-IZLQeGu1rInO0

[Defender]

8 minutes ago, billyblazes said:

On a related note about keeping records to later use against transgressors, down in Florida those who have been identified as being at the capital on January 6, 2021 have had their concealed carry licenses suspended.  Mind you, this doesn’t necessarily mean the people having their license suspended broke any laws or were inside restricted space in the capital. It only reflects that they were in the vicinity at the time. 

“Nikki Fried Suspends 22 Concealed Carry Permits For Floridians Involved In Capitol Breach”

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/07/27/nikki-fried-concealed-carry-permits-capitol-breach/?fbclid=IwAR0bGA4EEyS1UWaNY0045QC6jYxQSTotCGNQ7QiL1JpAR-IZLQeGu1rInO0

That is reprehensible! Insurrection, my a@@.

[chances R]

BillyB, if you are now a TN resident, you have 6 mos to get a TN permit.  Your FL permit won’t be valid, at least that is my understanding. Otherwise all other points seem correct.  Permit has no bearing on long guns.

[papa61]

On 7/13/2021 at 7:36 AM, Randall53 said:

There are many people in this country that carry guns anywhere they want everyday and are not restricted at all by what the gun laws are. They probably number in the millions. They also commit armed robbery, murder, rape, sell drugs, rob banks, burglarize homes, jack cars and trucks, commit home invasions and such like. They will continue to carry guns anywhere they want everyday and will not be restricted  at all by what the gun laws are. They probably number in the millions. 

I have myself for many years. I am not a criminal, not in the least. Not to throw shade on anyone who has a permit, I believe having one MYSELF would make me complicit, I don't wish to project this on anyone as it is my PERSONAL protest and I understand others who do have permits. My sister has her CCW and I am proud of her for taking that step. Below are why I do not have a CCW and I hope we get back to true constitutional carry soon,

 #1. Federal courts have ruled that you cannot attach a test or fee to any constitutionally guaranteed right. the current and all prior versions on CCW permits have done both,

#2. Free men are not bound by unjust laws. the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed is perfectly clear.

It is very true as we know that criminals by definition do not obey the law. Why should we be hamstrung in our effort to protect ourselves? The clown in chief says we need tanks and F16s to fight our own government if it comes to that. I say well,,,shall not be infringed and he don't know me vewy well do he?

Edited July 27, 2021 by papa61

[chances R]

So papa you are certainly privileged to your stance.  The problem is, if caught with a handgun in a non-permissive spot, it may financially ruin you to prove your point, if not jail time and loss of gun rights.  Simply being in a school zone, even in TN is a federal offense without a permit.  

[chances R]

John Harris was on 98.7 News Talk with Bob Yarbrough discussing the Permitless Carry law and the legal traps and confusion it has caused for LEO as well as civilians.  Good informative show for an hour.

[gregintenn]

On 7/15/2021 at 7:56 AM, Erik88 said:

Am I the only one that feels like some are making the permitless carry law out to be worse than it is? I know it's not perfect but it still seems like a huge step in the right direction.  I am hopeful they clean it up in the future. 

You are not the only one. It would appear there are two of us. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. I expect TFA sees this as a good way to raise funds as much as anything. I am, however, pleased with the TFA for getting this done. I would encourage any Tennessee gun enthusiast who isn’t a member to join.

[OLDNEWBIE]

7 hours ago, chances R said:

John Harris was on 98.7 News Talk with Bob Yarbrough discussing the Permitless Carry law and the legal traps and confusion it has caused for LEO as well as civilians.  Good informative show for an hour.

Sorry to have missed that.

[papa61]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:58 PM, chances R said:

So papa you are certainly privileged to your stance.  The problem is, if caught with a handgun in a non-permissive spot, it may financially ruin you to prove your point, if not jail time and loss of gun rights.  Simply being in a school zone, even in TN is a federal offense without a permit.  

You are quite correct in your assessment. However, I keep myself abreast of where I cannot carry and I don't put myself in position of being searched legally. I have been carrying without a permit for over 30 years so that should tell you something. Years back, everyone in the Sherriff's office and half of the city police force knew I was armed. I've only been challenged twice, once and undercover "bump frisked" me in Kroger at 6:00 AM and the judge in my divorce/child support case told me I had to sell my firearms. The undercover just wanted to make sure I wasn't shoplifting I'm sure as he kept walking and never said a word. I called the judge's bluff and told her she didn't have that authority in open court. She didn't like it but she knew I was correct.

If you mind your manners and know your rights you won't have a problem.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Not getting into the good or bad of this as flawed as it is but...

Wish there was a simple chart or something that would give more people the confidence to carry without fear of being arrested. 

We can assume:

City, State, Fed Govt. Property you get max. punishment if caught.

But.

Private businesses with no guns signs posted = ?? What punishments expected.

City limits, sidewalks, streets, public transport???

It's just too chancy for law abiding with assets to lose if busted.

It's even wrong to lock weapon in your auto while in a State park or School zone it seems. The law makes for more awkward sightings and reports of exposed guns from people seeing carriers trying to obey the asinine law. Unholstering and securing in weird locations.

Yes it's a huge step in the right direction but it needs fixing. 

First fix in my opinion.

At a minimum personal cars should always be permitted anywhere, to make it easy to park in a prohibited place and secure the gun before entering.

 

[bersaguy]

Maybe at some point our Governor will come to his senses and rewrite this law to include the correct Constitutional Carry law and make it much easier for people to understand. Until then all I can say is good luck if you carry and don't have an HCP....JMHO 

[papa61]

On 7/29/2021 at 12:32 PM, gregintenn said:

You are not the only one. It would appear there are two of us. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. I expect TFA sees this as a good way to raise funds as much as anything. I am, however, pleased with the TFA for getting this done. I would encourage any Tennessee gun enthusiast who isn’t a member to join.

make it three. 

and I have to renew my TGO membership!

[papa61]

2 hours ago, bersaguy said:

Maybe at some point our Governor will come to his senses and rewrite this law to include the correct Constitutional Carry law and make it much easier for people to understand. Until then all I can say is good luck if you carry and don't have an HCP....JMHO 

At this point it will come down to the local DA. 20 some odd years ago the local news did a report on concealed carry. this was before we had shall issue laws. the DAs of middle TN all said they would not prosecute someone for unlawful carry if they had been involved in a justifiable self defense shooting. my how times change.

[chances R]

17 hours ago, papa61 said:

At this point it will come down to the local DA. 20 some odd years ago the local news did a report on concealed carry. this was before we had shall issue laws. the DAs of middle TN all said they would not prosecute someone for unlawful carry if they had been involved in a justifiable self defense shooting. my how times change.

There actually is a state law that voids other violations in the case of justifiable self defense use of a firearm.  Several years ago in Knoxville, a convicted felon shot a convenience store robber and could not be prosecuted for possession of a weapon.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

8 hours ago, chances R said:

There actually is a state law that voids other violations in the case of justifiable self defense use of a firearm.  Several years ago in Knoxville, a convicted felon shot a convenience store robber and could not be prosecuted for possession of a weapon.

But the way the case law seems to have played out is that you may have to actually SHOOT someone for that to apply. There was the guy that was threatened at a high school baseball game by a guy with a bat.  So he got into his car and pulled a pistol to warn off the bat wielder but still got arrested and convicted for the gun possession (because it occurred at a school function) essentially because he didn't shoot. The judge said something to the effect that since you didn't actually shoot you weren't really using it to defend yourself..... Hopefully someone here remembers this case. I think it was in Clarksville maybe? (Or Crossville...or Cross Plains..or ????) We talked about it here after it happened but I cannot remember where it was or what the defendant's name was. 

[user1776]

Wow, that judge sounds like a real clown. Deterrence is no longer self-defense... countries must just own nuclear weapons for fun right?

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

But the way the case law seems to have played out is that you may have to actually SHOOT someone for that to apply. There was the guy that was threatened at a high school baseball game by a guy with a bat.  So he got into his car and pulled a pistol to warn off the bat wielder but still got arrested and convicted for the gun possession (because it occurred at a school function) essentially because he didn't shoot. The judge said something to the effect that since you didn't actually shoot you weren't really using it to defend yourself..... Hopefully someone here remembers this case. I think it was in Clarksville maybe? (Or Crossville...or Cross Plains..or ????) We talked about it here after it happened but I cannot remember where it was or what the defendant's name was. 

IIRC the incident took place in Bartlett at a city park and the gentleman in question never actually presented the weapon. He only warned the dude with the bat and had his hand on it, but never raised it. That’s the line the judge called out. If he had raised it and bat dude had reconsidered negating the need to fire, he would have been ok. 
 

Which to me reemphasizes the point that a firearm isn’t an item to use to verbally threaten or intimidate. It’s not a part of the equation until it must be part of the equation. 
 

I’m still trying to find either the thread or news article about it. 

[Randall53]

On 6/23/2021 at 5:20 PM, Chucktshoes said:

The sooner you stop believing that Republicans care about your natural rights, including the right to self-defense, the sooner you’ll stop being shocked when they don’t act in your benefit.

The GOP may not be perfect, and honestly a few members act like covert Democrat party members, but don’t kid yourself. Your party has been clear about all guns. If they could completely disarm us all, they would.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Randall53

[Chucktshoes]

2 hours ago, Randall53 said:

The GOP may not be perfect, and honestly a few members act like covert Democrat party members, but don’t kid yourself. Your party has been clear about all guns. If they could completely disarm us all, they would.

 

 

My party? 

 

Not to get deep into the verboten political weeds here, but to be clear, it’s possible to dislike more than one thing at a time. When it comes to the lizard people in Washington, I hate both of the most common varieties. 
 

The point of that post you quoted wasn’t to say R bad, D good. It was that you can’t trust someone just because they have a R next to their name. Their purpose is to do what they think is best for themselves and their pockets. You have to hold their feet to the fire so that they understand what means doing right by you because if you don’t, they won’t. 

[Erik88]

 

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

My party? 

I caught this too and was waiting for your response. I know you secretly love Pelosi though. 

 

 

 

 

[FUJIMO]

26 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

 

I caught this too and was waiting for your response. I know you secretly love Pelosi though. 

 

 

 

 

 

[mikegideon]

6 hours ago, Randall53 said:

The GOP may not be perfect, and honestly a few members act like covert Democrat party members, but don’t kid yourself. Your party has been clear about all guns. If they could completely disarm us all, they would.

 

Chuck is no Democrat. He just helps them win elections.  We have been arguing about it for nearly a decade. His heart is in the right place.