Slushee question for July: Shotguns: Pump or Auto?

[dcloudy777]

Okay fellow TGOers... I lied, I didn't want to wait for August, so I'm posting a Slushee Question for July.

The shotgun is widely used for defense, and deeply rooted in American tradition. It's practically standard equipment in police cruisers nationwide, and I sell a boatload of them to folks for household defense. The majority of the shotguns are either pump-action or autoloading (semiauto). Which is the better choice for defensive use and why? The trombone gun or the self-shucker.... you make the call...

DanO

Who, for the record, is a Remington 1100 guy...

[Guest c.a.s.]

For specifically home defense; It's gotta be the pump gun. A lot of intruders run off at the very audible and well-known sound of that action. Hell, it's probably the second most feared sound of hime invaders, aside from the "bang" afterwards.

[towerclimber37]

For specifically home defense; It's gotta be the pump gun. A lot of intruders run off at the very audible and well-known sound of that action.

see...therein lies the problem. I don't WANT them to run, a running target is harder to hit.

I want the last thing they ever hear to be the first half of a very loud noise...then, the only advice I can give them is "keep moving towards the light".

I'll take the automatic shotgun for the win Alex.

[wrenchhead97]

I have to agree with c.a.s. I am a pump man myself. The "rackarack" of a pump on a pump gun is universally recognized as an OSS (OH ***** SITUATION") and many times will even cut thru the crack induced haze of a junkie. I do not wanna have to shoot someone, I would rather they know I mean business when I say hit the ground, and not have to fill out a bunch of paperwork along with getting my house professionally "decrackheadblooderized" and having to buy a new sofa to boot.

[towerclimber37]

I have to agree with c.a.s. I am a pump man myself. The "rackarack" of a pump on a pump gun is universally recognized as an OSS (OH ***** SITUATION") and many times will even cut thru the crack induced haze of a junkie. I do not wanna have to shoot someone, I would rather they know I mean business when I say hit the ground, and not have to fill out a bunch of paperwork along with getting my house professionally "decrackheadblooderized" and having to buy a new sofa to boot.

Paperwork I don't mind:D, I DO mind said crackhead knowing that I have a firearm at home and waiting till I'm not around...though that may be worse for them, as my wife is a better shot with a pistol and will not hesitate to cleave their brisket...and she's a lover of the .45 with the 10 round magazine.

as for the stains? ahhh I needed a new couch anyhow..the cats are using this one for a scratching post dang it!

[dcloudy777]

From my experience, the last thing you want out of a badguy, particulary an armed one, is an alarm response. Scared people are the most dangerous people in the world, just like any other animal. Trust we when I tell you its very possible to wet oneself with terror, while simultaneously returning fire. When dealing with firearms in a lethal encounter, hits win fights, not noises. The sound of a pumpgun racking might very well scare off someone not intending to do you harm anyway, but then again, a firm voice command from an armed responder would very likely do the same thing.

Besides, autos make a very similar noise when chambering a round, should you choose to not keep the ready gun with a round chambered.

DanO

...who loves the discussion, this is how doctrine evolves without blood loss, or at least dry cleaning involved.

[Guest Len]

If we take away the "benefit" (or not) of the racking sound a pump provides, I think I'd still lean toward recommending a pump vs. a semiauto for pure HD work. Why? Several reasons that may or may not apply to you:

1) Personal preference/experience. I'm more experience with & comfortable with a pump shotty. I have a Benelli Nova pump Tactical under the bed loaded with Hornady TAP for home defense. I love my Nova, it works well for me.

2) Simplicty. Pumps are simple, easier (for me) to use under stress. A basic pump shotgun may not be the "sexiest" gun out there, but they rarely break and are uber-reliable.

3) Economy. Pumps cost less. I rarely use my HD shotty for anything other than HD -which means I don't use it much. I'll pay what I must to be safe, but why spend mega-bucks on a gun that you will hopefully never use except in practice? (Unless you are collector or just plain dig guns, then go for it!)

4) Versatility. Get a Mossberg 500 with interchangeable barrels and your HD gun becomes your sporting gun with the twist of a lug. This obviously helps with economy as well.

That being said, someone who chooses semi-auto and makes it work for him/her, great. Whatever works for you and you train with and are comfortable with. Pump for me, but there are many reasonable choices out there.

[The Rabbi]

I've never done a survey but my basic impression is that people who actually do this kind of stuff for a living prefer pump guns. That, the reliability of the pump, and the neat-o sound all suggest to me a pump.

As for comments about wanting to shoot and kill the bad guys, I find them deeply disturbing.

[fury2neon]

For specifically home defense; It's gotta be the pump gun. A lot of intruders run off at the very audible and well-known sound of that action. Hell, it's probably the second most feared sound of hime invaders, aside from the "bang" afterwards.

I agree, that racking sound is a major plus for the pump shotty.

[Guest EasilyObsessed]

Pump for me.

It is what I am familiar with, and if I wake up at 4am in the morning because someone is breaking into my house, I would have no trouble operating it under stress.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

I love the benelli nova. It is probably negligible in a point blank HD scenario, but with the pump, the perp gets the full force of the blast as where some of the energy is used to cycle the auto.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I'll have to go with the pump gun, specifically the Remington 870. Why? Because I've spent enough time and money familiarizing myself with it that it's like an extension of my arm.

[Guest dotsun]

As for comments about wanting to shoot and kill the bad guys, I find them deeply disturbing.

I'm siding with Tower on this one, making a loud racking noise in an otherwise quiet dark house is a huge tactical mistake. I'd prefer the first indication of my location in my domicilation to the perp to be a bright flash followed by the perp being DRT.

And yes, I want him dead. He broke into my house, with the presumably full knowledge that it is occupied. He's not here for tea and crumpets.

[The Rabbi]

I'm siding with Tower on this one, making a loud racking noise in an otherwise quiet dark house is a huge tactical mistake. I'd prefer the first indication of my location in my domicilation to the perp to be a bright flash followed by the perp being DRT.

And yes, I want him dead. He broke into my house, with the presumably full knowledge that it is occupied. He's not here for tea and crumpets.

Hope the grand jury never gets a hold of those comments....

[Guest dotsun]

Thanks to castle doctrine there will be no grand jury.

[The Rabbi]

Thanks to castle doctrine there will be no grand jury.

I'd strongly suggest consulting a lawyer first.

[Guest sermon8r]

+10 on the .45

[Schadenfreude]

I have to go with the pump. I have been in several shotgun self-defense training classes & every auto that I have seen in these classes always had problems these were 2 & 3 day classes so it might have been that they were just dirty but they did have problems I never saw a pump have an issue in any of these classes & in one of them it rained half the time & I did not clean or lube my 870 for the duration, I must admit that I do have to train myself to run the action after each shot so that I am not standing there with an un-chambered weapon but that is a matter of conditioning & training. As for the racking noise in the middle of the night, that would be a choice of whether or not one chooses to keep the chamber empty or not, both actions will make a healthy metal clank in the middle of the night. I would also highly recommend mounting a good flashlight to the weapon no matter which one you chose.

I have seen one 870 that had to be dis-assembled to get the action unfrozen it belonged to labrat & was “dryer than a popcorn fart†after adding some lube it was good as new.

[dcloudy777]

Great post Schaden. I feel the same way about the auto for the same reason. I've gone through some shotgun classes, and shot quite a few three-gun matches. Competition is stress-inducing, and brings out more mental mistakes than anything save actual mortal danger, so, IMHO, its a wonderful crucible to test doctrine and equipment. That being said, in the "heat of the moment", I've seen more pumps get short-stroked (or non-stroked) than autos choke, even among seasoned competitors and armed professional. I made the switch several years ago when, after a few gazillion rounds I found that, in MY hands anyway, the auto was more reliable.

I also like the fact that the autoloading shotgun works the same way as all my other autoloading firearms. We genreally don't use pump action rifles or pistols for defense (unless you live in Kalifornia ), so why would I want to use a completely different system for the shotgun? Commonality of training is a big part of my belief system.

DanO

...who is sad and lonely... where are all the auto guys?

[The Rabbi]

I am failing to see the advantages offered by the auto. As for manual of arms, a semi auto shotgun does not really operate the same way as an AR rifle.

Your point about competition being a good crucible is valid, and I have often tested things using that.

As for more people short-stroking, that is a concern. But how many people short stroked vs how many total pump guns there were and how many semi's were brought out?

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with a semi auto shotgun for HD. Of course I dont feel comfortable with a semi-auto pistol either...

[Donnie]

I like a semi-auto shotgun over a pump. The simpler the mechanics of firing, the better. The racking of the pump might scare off most people, but to the ones hell bent on doing you in, it's just letting them know where you are. You can fire a auto in positions where it would be dificult to fire a pump, like prone or real confined spaces. Another thing to think about is that you can fire an auto if your weak hand or arm is injured, where as this would be dificult with a pump. I favor the gas varieties over the inertia driven driven shotguns though.

[towerclimber37]

well, thats 4 for autos so far..and only 2 for pumps, since Rabbi didn't say unequivocally that he would use a pump shotgun.

[The Rabbi]

well, thats 4 for autos so far..and only 2 for pumps, since Rabbi didn't say unequivocally that he would use a pump shotgun.

Actually the only shotgun I own is a Remington 870 Marine Magnum.

[dcloudy777]

Rabbi is still in the prototype stage with his revolving shotgun... until them he's soldiering on with this...

[The Rabbi]

Hey, don't knock proven technology. When the world runs out of primers and brass I'll still be scattering lead.