Status of "Constitutional Carry" in TN.

[Capbyrd]

11 hours ago, Handsome Rob said:

Ok, so...ummmm dumbass question here: I've been kinda on and off following this, not expecting it to pass. 

Does the passing of this bill mean that everyone who can legally own firearms carry, or only those who can legally hold a carry permit, carry? 

I ask, because as a non immigrant alien (i'm sorry if y'all are all sick of this by now) I cannot get a carry permit, but I  CAN legally purchase & own firearms (NFA excluded) 

I want, rather, need to know if this bill means I can legally carry, or if i'm still prohibited. 

 

9 hours ago, Erik88 said:

@Handsome Rob I really hope you're allowed but I'm not sure. #1 below concerns me. 

"Under present law, it is an offense for a person who carries, with the intent to go armed, a firearm or a club. This bill adds an exception to the application of this offense that a person is carrying, whether openly or concealed, a handgun and:

(1) The person meets the qualifications for the issuance of an enhanced handgun carry permit"

Later on it says the bill was amended 

"ON MARCH 18, 2021, THE SENATE ADOPTED AMENDMENT #1, AND PASSED SENATE BILL 765, AS AMENDED.

AMENDMENT #1 revises this bill's exception to the offense of carrying, with the intent to go armed, a firearm or a club. Under this bill, it will be an exception to such offense that a person is carrying, whether openly or concealed, a handgun ,and:

(1) The person is at least 21 years of age, or is at least 18 years of age and has been honorably discharged from military service or is on active duty and has completed basic training"

So it almost seems like they ditched the requirement that someone has to qualify for the enhanced permit. Hopefully someone else will chime in and clear things up.

 

https://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=HB0786&GA=112

 

 

 

Rob, with the language that passed, you will be able to carry as long as you lawfully possess the handgun and and are in a place that you are "lawfully present."   There are exclusions as to where you can carry without having a permit.   My suggestion is give this a few months and handgunlaw.us should have a pretty good outline of what you can do.  

 

[Capbyrd]

14 hours ago, JayC said:

What is it exactly you're trying to accomplish?  The population at large is pretty safe with firearms with no mandated training.  Citizens at large are 5.5 times LESS likely to kill an innocent person in a justified shooting as a police officer.  People with and without training can and do safely use firearms for self defense everyday in this country, so what problem are you wanting to spend our hard earned tax dollars for exactly?

Accidental gun deaths in this country are very low, somewhere around 430 a year for the entire country.  Most of those deaths are males, ~25% of those deaths are males 20-29 that consumed alcohol, ~47% for that age bracket.  

So we're going to create a course to teach people gun safety, once we account for stupid people who are handling firearms while drunk - I doubt there is much we can do for them - we're trying to start up a training program on the tax payers dime to stop an issue that has less than a 1 in a million chance of happening in a give year.

Eddie the Eagle for schools make sense, lots of kids may find themselves around a gun someday, I'm all for spending tax payer money on something like that.  But, some form on mandated training for adults?  No, that is a complete waste of time and tax money.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly encourage range time and lots of training, but you just can't force somebody to go and do it, and nothing in the statistics provides a compelling reason to try.

First off, NO ONE ever said that this should be mandatory.   Additionally, if you read my posts on this subject, I've specifically mentioned funding this OUTSIDE of tax revenue.   I, personally, am against adding any type of firearms curriculum to public school.   First, thats just tax payer funded.   Secondly, our public schools are full up with pretty liberal types.  Are they the ones that you want teaching kids about firearms?  

You also seem to be focused on safety.   But a program like this could have additional benefits.  A lot of people never have an opportunity to be around guns in a safe environment.   Free training courses that can remove some stigma surrounding guns and ease some concerns could be a major boon for our pro second amendment fights in the future.  If people who are on the fence or completely ignorant get a little taste, even if they don't want to pursue it further, they could end up bending to our side and becoming allies.   A program like this could have far reaching effects and strengthen our stance for decades to come.  



Now having said all of that, you seem incredibly upset over something that is, at this point, fictional. 

[300winmag]

Mandatory gun classes in K-12 schools are not necessary.  If kids are interested in shooting, many schools and churches offer hunter's education.  A lot of schools have trap shooting teams.  Some kids just may not be interested in guns or the parents may not want the kids to learn.

Better to spend time and effort removing handgun carry permit restrictions for adults who choose to carry than force kids to take gun classes at school.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by 300winmag

[Handsome Rob]

2 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Rob, with the language that passed, you will be able to carry as long as you lawfully possess the handgun and and are in a place that you are "lawfully present."   There are exclusions as to where you can carry without having a permit.   My suggestion is give this a few months and handgunlaw.us should have a pretty good outline of what you can do.  

 

Thanks for that clarification. Legalese is far from being my first language! 

[300winmag]

I am surprised the gun organizations thought it was more beneficial to pass a law with heavily restricted permitless carry (looks like you cannot even carry in a park legally) instead of fixing the problems with the present enhanced permit such as:

A parent cannot legally carry when visiting his kid at college.

A person cannot legally carry at night visiting a sick family member in the hospital due to no gun signs.

An working adult cannot carry at the local community college when taking night classes.

Some state office buildings legally ban carry due to the no gun signs.

[Grayfox54]

Ok, forgive me, but as a long time permit holder I haven't really been following the details of all this. Exactly how does this bill differ from true Constitutional Carry and what are these restrictions I keep hearing about?  

[turd]

As a proponent of personal privacy I am in support of this legislation. I can purchase a handgun from another law abiding citizen and legally carry with out have to surrender a mountain of personal information to the state. This also saves money from having to pay for the class and the permit. 

[Capbyrd]

5 minutes ago, turd said:

As a proponent of personal privacy I am in support of this legislation. I can purchase a handgun from another law abiding citizen and legally carry with out have to surrender a mountain of personal information to the state. This also saves money from having to pay for the class and the permit. 

hmm.   Im curious what mountain of personal information you think they don't ALREADY have! 

[papa61]

2 hours ago, 300winmag said:

Mandatory gun classes in K-12 schools are not necessary.  If kids are interested in shooting, many schools and churches offer hunter's education.  A lot of schools have trap shooting teams.  Some kids just may not be interested in guns or the parents may not want the kids to learn.

Better to spend time and effort removing handgun carry permit restrictions for adults who choose to carry than force kids to take gun classes at school.  

@Worriedman opened this thread to concentrate on the current bill in the governor's hand so the other discussions would not muddy the water. so this will be my last post not directly related to that.

ALL children need gun safety/safe handling education. They will at some point most like[y find themselves in the presence of firearms and whether they cared or were interested before that point they NEED the knowledge to prevent accidental shootings. We cannot force parents but it does need to happen somewhere. It should be taught at home as soon as the child can understand but most often is not.

[Lumber_Jack]

2 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

hmm.   Im curious what mountain of personal information you think they don't ALREADY have! 

Valid point.  Gov Lee used cell phone data to justify to COVID-19 lockdown saying Tennesseans weren't staying home voluntarily.  If that doesn't scare the #### out of you, nothing will.  People scared of a vaccine implant and then carry a personal government intrusion device voluntarily everywhere we go.  

[turd]

6 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

hmm.   Im curious what mountain of personal information you think they don't ALREADY have! 

First thing that comes to mind is finger prints. 

[Alleycat72]

20 minutes ago, turd said:

First thing that comes to mind is finger prints. 

For me, I have a hard time thinking of a government agency that doesn't have my fingerprints. My Wife is in the same boat unfortunately. 

[Grayfox54]

The government has had a ton of info on me ever since I was 18 and joined the Army. Birthday, blood type, SSN, and who knows what they got when checking for my security clearances. I have a voter registration card, a carry permit and an IP address. Over the years the file just keeps growing. Personal privacy has been a myth since at least the 1960s. 

Now as Papa pointed out, can we please get back to the subject at hand?  I'd like to get my question answered. 

[Capbyrd]

19 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

The government has had a ton of info on me ever since I was 18 and joined the Army. Birthday, blood type, SSN, and who knows what they got when checking for my security clearances. I have a voter registration card, a carry permit and an IP address. Over the years the file just keeps growing. Personal privacy has been a myth since at least the 1960s. 

Now as Papa pointed out, can we please get back to the subject at hand?  I'd like to get my question answered. 

True constitutional carry would be anyone can carry any gun anywhere.   

This bill allows people over 21 to carry a handgun in some places.  

[Grayfox54]

That's part of my question. Where can an enhanced permit holder carry that this law doesn't allow non-permitted citizens to go armed? 

[chances R]

11 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

That's part of my question. Where can an enhanced permit holder carry that this law doesn't allow non-permitted citizens to go armed? 

Off the top of my head, No Reciprocity with other states.  If an employee of a state public university, have to have the ECP.  Would expect private schools to continue to require ECP policies.  There may be some issue with 'guns in trunk' law, will have to see how that shakes out.  I have heard that Const. Carry may not be allowed in National Parks.  Lot to learn and differentiate by July 1.

[Capbyrd]

LAWS! 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Capbyrd

[Defender]

22 hours ago, Worriedman said:

I find this interesting, pasted on a Legislators FB page.

I would interested in were he got the date mentioned for Tennessee, and the long guns, I think not. Constitution of the Union was ratified in 1788, and TN became a State in 1796?  Bill of rights was ratified by Virginia on that date but what does it have to do with a non-existent State?

Probably referring to this:  The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right to keep and bear arms. It was ratified on December 15, 1791, along with nine other articles of the Bill of Rights.

[Worriedman]

8 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Rob, with the language that passed, you will be able to carry as long as you lawfully possess the handgun and and are in a place that you are "lawfully present."   There are exclusions as to where you can carry without having a permit.   My suggestion is give this a few months and handgunlaw.us should have a pretty good outline of what you can do.  

 

The actual language passed was the Senate version (not arguing, just stating the facts) and it reverts to the older language "Where you have a Right to be"  Leader Lamberth tried to insert the "Legally present" in the House version but the Senate would not accept it so he moved the Senate version of the bill.  There are in fact federal laws which allow those who were precluded from possession due to mental issues who could, if those matters are medically corrected and that is expunged from their records federally who can not regain their Rights under this provision.  That will most likely be addressed nest year if someone challenges it.

[Grayfox54]

Ok, I got an e-mail from TFA today about this new law and it pointed out a couple of restrictions, but not all. Under the new law a citizen can not carry in a park or greenway. Also, certain  misdemeanors prohibit you from carry including stalking or DUI. Apparently there are more restrictions, that are not mentioned in the article. So does anybody have or can they work up a list of ALL the restrictions on permitless carry? I'm really curious about all this because I know several non-permited folks who want to carry, but lack info. 

Another question: There was a vague mention of carrying in schools. Can an enhanced permit holder carry in schools? I thought that was always prohibited? 

[Worriedman]

3 hours ago, Defender said:

Probably referring to this:  The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right to keep and bear arms. It was ratified on December 15, 1791, along with nine other articles of the Bill of Rights.

I know you are correct and  stated so in my post, but would reiterate, what does that have to do with Tennessee. That is the Tri Star on his graphic, which was not a State at that point, he is insinuating it is a Tennessee date, but that is nitpicking I guess, the long guns are the kicker...maybe a brace of pistols would have better represented the facts.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Worriedman

[Worriedman]

3 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Another question: There was a vague mention of carrying in schools. Can an enhanced permit holder carry in schools? I thought that was always prohibited? 

If there is a plan by the district, they must still have and Enhanced permit to do so:
 

§ 49-6-815. Possession of firearms on school grounds; persons allowed; notice

(a) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1309 or any other provision of title 39, chapter 17, part 13 to the contrary, the following people are permitted to possess and carry a firearm on the grounds of the school at which they are assigned:

(1) A person employed by an LEA as a faculty or staff member at a school within the LEA; or

(2) A person assigned to a school in accordance with a memorandum of understanding between the chief of the appropriate law enforcement agency and the LEA.

(b) In order to possess and carry a firearm on the grounds of the school pursuant to subsection (a), the person must:

(1) Be authorized to possess and carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1351;
 

§ 49-6-816. Possession of firearms on school grounds in distressed rural counties; persons authorized; notice

(a) As used in this section:

(1) “Distressed rural county” means any county that qualifies as an “eligible county” under § 67-6-104, for the apportionment of sales and use tax revenue for commercial development districts, and has a population of not less than seventeen thousand (17,000) nor more than seventeen thousand one hundred (17,100), or a population of not less than five thousand (5,000) nor more than five thousand one hundred (5,100), according to the 2010 federal census or any subsequent federal census; and

(2) “Employee” means a person employed full time to work in a public kindergarten through grade 12 (K-12) school, including as a teacher, principal, vice principal, or other staff member.

(b)          (1) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1309 or any other provision of title 39, chapter 17, part 13, to the contrary, in addition to persons who are authorized to possess a firearm on school property under any other law, the local board of education in a distressed rural county may adopt a policy allowing the director of schools, in consultation with the principal of each school, to authorize and select employees who may carry a concealed handgun within and on the grounds of the school to which the person is assigned.

(2) If the director of schools authorizes one (1) or more employees to carry a concealed handgun as provided in subdivision (b)(1), the maximum number of employees that may be authorized is one (1) employee for each one hundred (100) students enrolled in the school.

(c) No employee shall be disciplined or otherwise suffer adverse employment consequences if the employee does not volunteer to be trained to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this section.

(d)          (1) The director of schools shall not select an employee to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this section unless the employee:

(A) Possesses and maintains a valid handgun carry permit issued by this state pursuant to § 39-17-1351;
 

§ 49-50-803. Handgun carry policy   (Private schools)

(a)(1) The board or governing entity of each private K-12 school, or the chief administrative officer if the school does not have a board or governing entity, may establish a handgun carry policy for any property on which the school is located that is owned or operated by the school and for any building or structure located on the school property.

(2) Any handgun carry policy adopted by the board or governing entity, or the chief administrative officer when appropriate, may:

(A) Prohibit the carrying or possession of a handgun on the property of, or in a building located at, the private school;

(B) Permit the carrying of handguns by persons qualified under subsection (b) on all property constituting the campus of the school and in all buildings owned or operated by the school; or

(C) Permit the carrying of handguns by persons qualified under subsection (b) in certain areas on the property of the school or in certain buildings, but prohibit the carrying in other areas or buildings.

(b) If the board or governing entity, or the chief administrative officer when appropriate, permits the possession of handguns in accordance with this section at the private school, the following rules and limitations shall apply:

(1) No person who is otherwise prohibited from possessing a handgun is permitted to carry a handgun on private school property; 

(2) The person must have a valid Tennessee handgun carry permit, pursuant to § 39-17-1351; and

(3) No private institution that permits the possession of handguns on the property owned or operated by the institution pursuant to this section shall be required to post signs as required by § 39-17-1309(d).

A couple of other issues, bow hunting or being on Wildlife Refuges:
 

§ 70-4-123. Bow and arrow hunting; possession of firearm; crimes and offenses

(a) It is unlawful for any person hunting big game with a bow and arrow to be in possession of any firearms or be accompanied in hunting by any person possessing firearms during the archery-only deer season; provided, that persons authorized to carry a handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351 may carry a handgun as defined in § 39-11-106(a) while hunting big game with a bow and arrow during the archery-only deer season.

(b) A person who violates this section commits a Class C misdemeanor.

 

§ 70-4-117. Weapons; big game habitat; crimes and offenses; handgun carry permit

(a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections (b) and (c).

(b)

(1) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor.

(2) It is mandatory upon the court to impose the prison sentence, upon conviction for a second or subsequent offense, and the prison sentence is not subject to suspension.

(c) In the prosecution of a second or subsequent offense, the indictment or presentment must allege the prior conviction for violating any of the provisions of this section, setting forth the time and place of each such prior conviction. The court shall prohibit such convicted person, either a first or subsequent offender, from hunting, fishing or trapping in this state for a period of one (1) year.

                (d) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a person with a handgun carry permit pursuant to § 39-17-1351 may possess a handgun the entire year while on the premises of any refuge, public hunting area, wildlife management area or, to the extent permitted by federal law, national forest land maintained by the state. Nothing in this subsection (d) shall authorize a person to use any handgun to hunt unless the person is in full compliance with all wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

(e) Nothing in this section shall authorize a person with a hand gun carry permit to possess such weapon in the portion of any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area that is within the boundaries of a state park or state natural area unless otherwise authorized in accordance with state law.

(f) Nothing in this section shall authorize a person to access any area unless the person is in full compliance with all current wildlife laws, rules, proclamations and regulations.

These are small pockets of problems out of the myriad of codes but it might get handled by an AG's opinion to just clear it up.

Overall the permitless carry is a good thing and just needs tidying up.

[Worriedman]

Of note, still in Tennessee: 

Carrying any sort of weapon for offense or defense in public, (Going armed), is a crime.  As good as the recently passed Permitless Carry Bill is in Tennessee, that Code Section has not been touched, and remains a blot on the soul of Tennessee with respect to the original intent of our Founding.  You now have exceptions, exemptions or defenses if you meet certain criteria tied to the permit system, but the criminal aspect of one’s leaving their personal property with a loaded firearm still exist. 

In 44 states, openly carrying a long gun is legal. Of these states, Iowa, Tennessee, and Utah require that the long gun is unloaded. Virginia and Pennsylvania limit openly carrying long guns in certain cities.

These States (or wanabe States) pretty much prohibit openly carry of long guns: California, District of Columbia, Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, Minnesota and New Jersey.

Tennessee’s prescription against the carry of a loaded long gun is listed in TCA 39-17-1307 (17) which states:  “Unloaded means the rifle, shotgun or handgun does not have ammunition in the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine, and no clip or magazine is in the immediate vicinity of the weapon".  Need to get that if you have NO ammo but do have a stripper clip, clip or magazine you are guilty of carrying a loaded firearm.  Andy Griffith at least allowed Barney one bullet…(yes, I know it was for a handgun)
 

[Capbyrd]

14 hours ago, Worriedman said:

The actual language passed was the Senate version (not arguing, just stating the facts) and it reverts to the older language "Where you have a Right to be"  Leader Lamberth tried to insert the "Legally present" in the House version but the Senate would not accept it so he moved the Senate version of the bill.  There are in fact federal laws which allow those who were precluded from possession due to mental issues who could, if those matters are medically corrected and that is expunged from their records federally who can not regain their Rights under this provision.  That will most likely be addressed nest year if someone challenges it.

I'm well aware of what passed.   And it wasn't just the Senate version but the Senate version AS AMENDED.  And the Senate version as amended contained the language "lawfully present."  


 

Quote

(g) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person is carrying,

whether openly or concealed, a handgun and: (1)

(A) The person is at least twenty-one (21) years of age; or (B) The person is at least eighteen (18) years of age and:

(i) Is an honorably discharged or retired veteran of the United States armed forces;

(ii) Is an honorably discharged member of the army national guard, the army reserve, the navy reserve, the marine corps reserve, the air national guard, the air force reserve, or the coast guard reserve, who has successfully completed a basic training program; or

(iii) Is a member of the United States armed forces on active duty status or is a current member of the army national guard, the army reserve, the navy reserve, the marine corps reserve, the air national guard, the air force reserve, or the coast guard reserve, who has successfully completed a basic training program;

(2) The person lawfully possesses the handgun; and

(3) The person is in a place where the person is lawfully present.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Capbyrd

[Defender]

Our gun laws here in Tennessee are starting to remind me of the obfuscation the ATF uses.  How in the world can anyone expect the average NON HCP citizen to understand what and where they can legally carry?  The state has committed a disservice to Tennesseans by calling this 'Constitutional Carry'.  As a 'gun guy', many of friends expect me to be able to give good advice on this crap, and lord its hard to keep up, lol.  If anyone has the time and knowledge, it would be useful to create a downloadable chart that depicts in easy to read columns, the places and what one can carry with one column being HCP holders and the other being the co-called Constitutional Carry persons.  I don't understand it enough to do that.