CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY

[Omega]

3 minutes ago, chances R said:

IMO the die for my country argument doesn’t hold water.  Those enlisted are under constant supervision.  Not so in civilian life.

Yea, I am sure no 18  yo soldiers will die due to supervision, smfh.  

https://spacecoastdaily.com/2018/05/vietnam-veterans-memorial-totals-58267-names-including-33103-18-years-old/

Quote

Vietnam Veterans Memorial Totals 58,267 Names, Including 33,103 18-Year Olds

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cnsnews-database-104-women-33-18-year-olds-among-iraq-wars-casualties

Quote

CNSNews Database: 104 Women, 33 18-Year-Olds Among Iraq War's Casualties

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

So is there truth to the rumor that it will eliminate "gun free zones" ? 

[Erik88]

29 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

So is there truth to the rumor that it will eliminate "gun free zones" ? 

I haven't seen that mentioned yet. 

It honestly seems like a decent bill to me but the TFA is not happy with it. 

[E4 No More]

11 hours ago, chances R said:

IMO the die for my country argument doesn’t hold water.  Those enlisted are under constant supervision.  Not so in civilian life.

Um, no they aren't. Most of my time while in the Marine Corps I had no "superior" anywhere around me.

[Capbyrd]

30 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I haven't seen that mentioned yet. 

It honestly seems like a decent bill to me but the TFA is not happy with it. 

 

It's a good start.   But the TFA will never be happy with a bill.   If they pass it, there won't be any reason for them to exist and they won't be  able to fear monger to make you give them money anymore.   

[Erik88]

19 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

 

It's a good start.   But the TFA will never be happy with a bill.   If they pass it, there won't be any reason for them to exist and they won't be  able to fear monger to make you give them money anymore.   

That's essentially every 2A lobbing group I belong to. I get daily emails from the FPC about how the gun apocalypse is coming. They won't admit it, but for fundraising purposes they love having the Democrats in control. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

55 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I haven't seen that mentioned yet. 

 

I haven't seen it either but I heard that on the radio and was curious as to whether anyone else knew anything about that.

 

[chances R]

54 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Um, no they aren't. Most of my time while in the Marine Corps I had no "superior" anywhere around me.

so you answered to no one?  Took no orders for the day?  I've had 16 yrs of service, maybe on some independent duty, but always had to report to someone.

[E4 No More]

12 minutes ago, chances R said:

so you answered to no one?  Took no orders for the day?  I've had 16 yrs of service, maybe on some independent duty, but always had to report to someone.

You said constantly supervised. That means a so-called "superior" watching over me 24x7x365. That didn't happen.

[papa61]

12 hours ago, chances R said:

IMO the die for my country argument doesn’t hold water.  Those enlisted are under constant supervision.  Not so in civilian life.

Service and training have a great effect on responsibility, which is key in my opinion. Mayne not maturity so much but being responsible and having military small arms training is I assure you, enough. the need to know the law on rules of engagement will be instilled in basic training.

[papa61]

by the way, I can't speak for other branches of service. BUT in the Army we were taught to asses, think, and adapt. in other words, reason it out.

[E4 No More]

2 hours ago, papa61 said:

Service and training have a great effect on responsibility, which is key in my opinion. Mayne not maturity so much but being responsible and having military small arms training is I assure you, enough. the need to know the law on rules of engagement will be instilled in basic training.

I dunno. We had Marines putting live rounds in M-16's that had the BFA attached. In my battalion we had a Marine with a M-16 loaded with live rounds shoot a Korean woman while he was riding by in a truck on maneuvers. It's the old saying, "You can't fix stupid."

Edited March 23, 2021 by E4 No More

[papa61]

1 minute ago, E4 No More said:

I dunno. We had Marines putting live rounds in M-16's that had the BFA attached. In my battalion we had a Marine with a M-16 loaded with life rounds shoot a Korean woman while he was riding by in a truck on maneuvers. It's the old saying, "You can't fix stupid."

I know, we lost a guy for pointing loaded M16 in wrong direction on the range. You can fix stupid, but it's gonna hurt. And carry permit classes won't weed the stupid out either.

[chances R]

And you all know that many positions in all branches rarely have anything but minimal live fire training.  World of difference in military objectives and rules of engagement vs. civilian rules.  Apples and oranges.

[chances R]

Additionally, I never ever said the permit courses adequately train individuals but it is a start....and unfortunately a start and a finish combined for way too many.

[Omega]

54 minutes ago, chances R said:

And you all know that many positions in all branches rarely have anything but minimal live fire training.  World of difference in military objectives and rules of engagement vs. civilian rules.  Apples and oranges.

In Special Ops we had a bunch of live fire, heck in our assessment course we fired hundreds of rounds a day.  We are the "Tip of the Spear" and still have stupid incidents, so training doesn't prevent stupidity.

But we are not talking about folks that will carry a gun for a living here, we are talking allowing people to exercise their rights to self defense.  Nobody has to ask permission to post stupid things on the internet, even though many will see legal and life altering consequences due to it, including those under 18.  If we were discussing having a licence to post on a forum or other social media many would, rightly, be up in arms about it.

 

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

And you all know that many positions in all branches rarely have anything but minimal live fire training.  World of difference in military objectives and rules of engagement vs. civilian rules.  Apples and oranges.

I can't speak for the other services, but in the Marine Corps boot camp EVERY recruit spent two weeks on the rifle range where the first week was safety, marksmanship, and dry-firing exercises, and the second week was live fire with the last day as qualifications. We were also familiarized with, and fired, the .45 pistol. Every year after boot camp, EVERY Marine had to spend a week going through it all again, and when you made NCO you had to qualify with the pistol too. The only time that you got to stop that process was when you got out of the Marine Corps or you qualified Expert 6 years in a row. Then there was safety training around machine guns, hand grenades, rocket launchers, artillery, etc. Hell, I got more safety and weapons training in the Marines than I did as 6.5 years as a LEO!

With all that safety training, weapons training, and live fire some Marines still did stupid that got them or others hurt or killed. We've even seen certified firearms instructors have NDs including shooting their selves in front of their classes.

[Chucktshoes]

41 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

I can't speak for the other services, but in the Marine Corps boot camp EVERY recruit spent two weeks on the rifle range where the first week was safety, marksmanship, and dry-firing exercises, and the second week was live fire with the last day as qualifications. We were also familiarized with, and fired, the .45 pistol. Every year after boot camp, EVERY Marine had to spend a week going through it all again, and when you made NCO you had to qualify with the pistol too. The only time that you got to stop that process was when you got out of the Marine Corps or you qualified Expert 6 years in a row. Then there was safety training around machine guns, hand grenades, rocket launchers, artillery, etc. Hell, I got more safety and weapons training in the Marines than I did as 6.5 years as a LEO!

With all that safety training, weapons training, and live fire some Marines still did stupid that got them or others hurt or killed. We've even seen certified firearms instructors have NDs including shooting their selves in front of their classes.

I was in a non-combat role in the AF. Two days in BMT on the rifle range, and that was it. Didn’t touch a gun again while I was in. 

[Capbyrd]

So about the bill...

It passed out of the House Finance Ways and Means committee after basically zero conversation about the financial impact of the bill. 

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

I was in a non-combat role in the AF. Two days in BMT on the rifle range, and that was it. Didn’t touch a gun again while I was in. 

You also used .22 LR too, right?

[JayC]

On 3/22/2021 at 11:02 AM, Capbyrd said:

 

In my experience its closer to around 97% and it is definitely not welfare for me.  And seeing as how my school regularly has students in the class that do not NEED to take the class, it shows me that there is some tangible benefit to someone.   If I had my way, the class would require much more than the current requirement.   But the state sets the curriculum.   We are not allowed to change even a slide or a word on the test.   They set the shooting standard.   We spend as much time on the range doing dry work as we do live fire because we deal with so many students that have never touched a gun before.   


I am an instructor in ECP classes and I support constitutional carry.  I recommend to folks that they get training.  But I'm not their daddy.  I ain't making anyone do anything!  

I'm not suggesting that people don't need training, only that requiring training before being 'allowed' to carry a firearm is wrong and provides very little benefit that couldn't be reduced to a youtube video.

[Defender]

19 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I was in a non-combat role in the AF. Two days in BMT on the rifle range, and that was it. Didn’t touch a gun again while I was in. 

I remember while overseas (Europe) we had to fire quarterly on both the M-16 and the 9mm, with both a combat course of fire and also a police course of fire.  Also the M-60, M-203 and the Mk 19 40mm Grenade launcher, but not that often.  Between all that, seems like we were at the range a LOT. That came with LOTS of emphasis on safety, yet we still managed to have NDs.

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, Defender said:

I remember while overseas (Europe) we had to fire quarterly on both the M-16 and the 9mm, with both a combat course of fire and also a police course of fire.  Also the M-60, M-203 and the Mk 19 40mm Grenade launcher, but not that often.  Between all that, seems like we were at the range a LOT. That came with LOTS of emphasis on safety, yet we still managed to have NDs.

Well, I feel like there’s a joke about minimum acceptable ASVAB scores or the different branches just sitting around here somewhere.

[E4 No More]

5 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Well, I feel like there’s a joke about minimum acceptable ASVAB scores or the different branches just sitting around here somewhere.

I've seen absolute dolts in all of the services. In my platoon in boot camp, we had a guy named Stuart who was the dumbest human being I've ever encountered. Example: You couldn't simply tell him to swab the deck; you had to show him...repeatedly. Clearly, he had a ringer sit in for him for the ASVAB test.

[Defender]

41 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Well, I feel like there’s a joke about minimum acceptable ASVAB scores or the different branches just sitting around here somewhere.

You know, I've tried very hard to refrain form that, lol.  I saw some crazy stupid airmen in the USAF, but my last tour in Germany working very closely on special missions with the Army....