Optics ready pistolas... Somethin to play with or the " Real Deal "..?

[Smith]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

One of the times a dot failed on me was when I stepped out of an air conditioned vehicle into a muggy about-to-rain morning and the glass fogged up for a couple minutes.  Co-witnessed irons would have been useless.  If one managed to crack the glass, back up irons would still be useless.  

You could also possibly knock the iron sighs out of alignment, not have night sights for a low light shoot, tritium expire, tritium fall out, FO tube break, sight break.  There are lots of hypotheticals and nothing is perfect, except using a point shooting base. For years the military and police taught point shooting, mainly ignoring irons, shooting from the waist. Revolvers barely had sights, as well as 1911's. Think Fairbairn/Sykes.  Then they taught sight shooting with one eye, highly reliant on tactical/precision irons. Now we are back to sight shooting with an optic. I believe that is what Dave was pointing to with Leatham and Enos. Point shooting is always the best technique for speed, accuracy (both eyes), awareness, next target acquisition, multiple target awareness, etc. Optics are used an as aid for the effective shooter, not as a necessity. Over reliance on any sight is a crutch.  

Irons alone > Optics alone

Optics with irons > Irons alone

Point Shooting > All sight/optic 

[leroy]

4 minutes ago, Smith said:

.... Point shooting is always the best technique for speed, accuracy (both eyes), awareness, next target acquisition, multiple target awareness, etc. Optics are used an as aid for the effective shooter, not as a necessity....

DING... DING... DING... We have a winner... Mr Smith is dead right... All defensive shooting boils down to this...

Many thanks...

leroy...

 

[deerslayer]

53 minutes ago, Smith said:

You could also possibly knock the iron sighs out of alignment, not have night sights for a low light shoot, tritium expire, tritium fall out, FO tube break, sight break.  There are lots of hypotheticals and nothing is perfect, except using a point shooting base. For years the military and police taught point shooting, mainly ignoring irons, shooting from the waist. Revolvers barely had sights, as well as 1911's. Think Fairbairn/Sykes.  Then they taught sight shooting with one eye, highly reliant on tactical/precision irons. Now we are back to sight shooting with an optic. I believe that is what Dave was pointing to with Leatham and Enos. Point shooting is always the best technique for speed, accuracy (both eyes), awareness, next target acquisition, multiple target awareness, etc. Optics are used an as aid for the effective shooter, not as a necessity. Over reliance on any sight is a crutch.  

Irons alone > Optics alone

Optics with irons > Irons alone

Point Shooting > All sight/optic 

Irons won’t fog up or not work due to a dead battery.  The other hypotheticals about irons failing are remotely possible, but unlikely.  
 

Enos and Leatham don’t “point shoot” unless a target is really close.  They use the sights more for some shots than they do others.  Enos talks about “seeing what you need to see” when describing an adequate sight picture.  Jeff Cooper mentioned a “flash sight picture.”  Sure, hard focus on the front sight when trying to hit a golf ball at 25 yards.  For many other less difficult shots, using the front sight to varying degrees or at least being aware of the front sight vs. focusing on it will suffice if speed is required.  Some have mastered target focusing with iron sights at farther than you would think distances, but that is different from point shooting.  
 

I agree that a well-honed index is important, but to disregard the sights or dot at more than conversation distances when in a hurry is a miss for many shooters. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by deerslayer

[leroy]

9 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 

I agree that a well-honed index is important, but to disregard the sights or dot at more than conversation distances when in a hurry is a miss for many shooters. 

I dont think this is what is being said.  My take is " keep both eyes open, raise the pistola, and let the sights appear, shoot, look for the next target"...

Cooper n all the old time gunfighters used this technique  I'm thinkin.

It is " guided point shooting " as opposed to " point shooting from the hip "

leroy.

[deerslayer]

11 minutes ago, leroy said:

I dont think this is what is being said.  My take is " keep both eyes open, raise the pistola, and let the sights appear, shoot, look for the next target"...

Cooper n all the old time gunfighters used this technique  I'm thinkin.

It is " guided point shooting " as opposed to " point shooting from the hip "

leroy.

Well, he said point shooting > sight/optic, so does point shooting involve the sights or not?  What is often described as “point shooting” does not.  Some on here have opined that sights are a waste because a shooter will ignore them in a stressful event, etc.  I’ve never accepted this.  On the other hand, if “point shooting” does make different use of the sights depending on the difficulty of the shot, we may all be describing the same thing.  I don’t think that’s the case, though.  

[Smith]

Just now, deerslayer said:

Well, he said point shooting > sight/optic, so does point shooting involve the sights or not?  What is often described as “point shooting” does not.  Some on here have opined that sights are a waste because a shooter will ignore them in a stressful event, etc.  I’ve never accepted this.  On the other hand, if “point shooting” does make different use of the sights depending on the difficulty of the shot, we may all be describing the same thing.  I don’t think that’s the case, though.  

Yeah, I do believe that is the case.

[deerslayer]

6 minutes ago, Smith said:

Yeah, I do believe that is the case.

[Grayfox54]

Gun guru Jim Cirillo had a system he called  silhouette point shooting. Here the gun was raised to eye level, pointed at the target. But you didn't use sights. Instead you focused on looking squarely at the back of the gun. The sides, bottom or top should not be visible. What this does is make sure that you are square with the target and the gun was square with you. Or simply put, the gun was pointed where you were looking.  

The man survived over a dozen gun fights. I tend to listen to his advice. 

[A.J. Holst]

My RMR Type 2 arrived yesterday, looking forward to testing as soon as I can remove the rear sight.

My experience is when I reach about 15+ yards, my sights are so large, the POI is covered, so precision is a greater challenge.

Will the glass fog, break and batteries die at the worst possible moment, of course.

I haven't read a volume of reports of failed dots in gun fights, but hey, I carry a second pistol, so I can overcome mechanical dot or firearm failure.

[leroy]

AJ..,.

Which mount are ya gonna use..? 

leroy...

[A.J. Holst]

9 hours ago, leroy said:

AJ..,.

Which mount are ya gonna use..? 

leroy...

Beretta supplies 4 plates (Trijicon, Leupold, Burris, and C-More) with the RDO model.

I was going to remount my Burris FF3 until Best Gun Buddy gifted me the RMR.

While not a big deal right now in the journey, Beretta does not make suppressor height sights, assuming because the APX didn't catch on.

[DJTC45]

Picked up my new Staccato P DPO from my FFL. Going to do a few mods. on it, either install the old style Grip Module from my Staccato P 4.14 or I might order another EXTREME SHOOTERS Grip Module w/ Grip Reduction like I put on my 4.14 model, and an aluminium Flat Trigger from EVERGLADES and install my HOLOSUN Red Dot this weekend. Here's the pics. of the DPO

 

 

[TGO David]

19 minutes ago, DJTC45 said:

Picked up my new Staccato P DPO from my FFL. Going to do a few mods. on it, either install the old style Grip Module from my Staccato P 4.14 or I might order another EXTREME SHOOTERS Grip Module w/ Grip Reduction like I put on my 4.14 model, and an aluminium Flat Trigger from EVERGLADES and install my HOLOSUN Red Dot this weekend.

Nice! 

You ought to just send that Gen 2 grip module off to Dark Side Precision and let him work it over for you or buy one from him when he has them in stock.  I have a spare that I am probably going to send to him sooner or later.

 

 

 

[DJTC45]

That looks great, but I really prefer the Extreme Grip Module Dragon Scale Texture, I might install the tree bark one I have. 

[DJTC45]

Here's some pics of it with the HOLOSUN 507C X2 that I just got done mounting.

[TGO David]

2 hours ago, DJTC45 said:

Here's some pics of it with the HOLOSUN 507C X2 that I just got done mounting.

There ya go!  That's the business right there.

I am running the same optic on my C2 DPO and it's the way to go for low profile and an optic that doesn't hang over the sides too badly with the slim profile of the 1911/2011 slide.

 

[DJTC45]

38 minutes ago, TGO David said:

There ya go!  That's the business right there.

I am running the same optic on my C2 DPO and it's the way to go for low profile and an optic that doesn't hang over the sides too badly with the slim profile of the 1911/2011 slide.

 

Thanks, I like this a lot better, going to try to run some rnds down it next week at one of the indoor ranges when I have time. How accurate are the HOLOSUN out of the box, just seeing how much adjustment I might expect to make. 

[TGO David]

4 minutes ago, DJTC45 said:

Thanks, I like this a lot better, going to try to run some rnds down it next week at one of the indoor ranges when I have time. How accurate are the HOLOSUN out of the box, just seeing how much adjustment I might expect to make. 

I always start at home by zeroing the dot to the front sight with the irons aligned properly.   That will almost always get me on paper at say 7-10 yards.  After that it is just a few minor adjustments for whatever distance you prefer.

I tend to zero handgun dots at around 15 yards and then see what my holds are for 25 and 5.

[DJTC45]

Thanks for the information, I'll try that and see what I can do. I'll post back sometime next week when I get to the range.

[mamcdonald]

A couple of months ago I sent my G48 slide off to be milled for a Holosun 507k and once I got it zeroed my groups were much better than with open sights.  I was amazed at how much easier and faster it was for me to be able to get good hits with the dot. It's my EDC, although after about a day and a half of appendix carry I swapped the extended barrel out for the factory one

 

[TGO David]

17 minutes ago, mamcdonald said:

A couple of months ago I sent my G48 slide off to be milled for a Holosun 507k and once I got it zeroed my groups were much better than with open sights.  I was amazed at how much easier and faster it was for me to be able to get good hits with the dot. It's my EDC, although after about a day and a half of appendix carry I swapped the extended barrel out for the factory one

 

The Dot Life is the Best Life. 

 

[Defender]

1 hour ago, TGO David said:

The Dot Life is the Best Life. 

 

Man, you guys are killing me! My EDC is a Sig P-365XL, right now with a P-365 SAS  ported barrel and slide on it.  I keep deciding that a re dot optic isn't for me as any shooting I do will be up close and personal.  But the more I read the more i want one.  I can out one on either my original slide or the smaller SAS one Im currently using.  The SAS slide requires an aftermarket adapter plate but the XL is ready to install.  What optic do 365 owners recommend?

Edited March 13, 2021 by Defender

[Chucktshoes]

8 minutes ago, Defender said:

Man, you guys are killing me! My EDC is a Sig P-365XL, right now with a P-368 ported barrel and slide on it.  I keep deciding that a re dot optic isn't for me as any shooting I do will be up close and personal.  But the more I read the more i want one.  I can out one on either my original slide or the smaller SAS one Im currently using.  The SAS slide requires an aftermarket adapter plate but the XL is ready to install.  What optic do 365 owners recommend?

I don’t have a P365XL, but I’m going to make a recommendation anyway because it’s the same recommendation pretty much regardless of pistol. For that size gun, get either a RMRcc, or a Holosun 507k (my choice). Nothing else is durable enough or of sufficient quality to be an EDC optic.

[mamcdonald]

28 minutes ago, Defender said:

Man, you guys are killing me! My EDC is a Sig P-365XL, right now with a P-368 ported barrel and slide on it.  I keep deciding that a re dot optic isn't for me as any shooting I do will be up close and personal.  But the more I read the more i want one.  I can out one on either my original slide or the smaller SAS one Im currently using.  The SAS slide requires an aftermarket adapter plate but the XL is ready to install.  What optic do 365 owners recommend?

I looked at a 365xl recently, I think the XL slide will only accept the Sig romeoZero and Shield RMS-c directly. Having only read reviews and seen videos I'd go with the Shield dot, it's made of metal and seems more robust than the Sig.  However it's also something like twice as expensive if that's a factor. If you go the adapter plate route I'm quite happy with my Holosun 507k.

Edited March 13, 2021 by mamcdonald

[Chucktshoes]

4 minutes ago, mamcdonald said:

I looked at a 365xl recently, I think the XL slide will only accept the Sig romeoZero and Shield RMS-c directly. Having only read reviews and seen videos I'd go with the Shield dot, it's made of metal and seems more robust than the Sig.  However it's also something like twice as expensive if that's a factor. If you go the adapter plate route I'm quite happy with my Holosun 507k.

No adapters needed. 507k is a direct fit according to the cats on the sig forum.