Optics ready pistolas... Somethin to play with or the " Real Deal "..?

[leroy]

Been re reading the posts here... David revealed an important gem here:

"... A dot shooter {should focus )  Their eyes crisply on the target and the dot simply appears on the target as they bring the gun to bear, using proprioception to get it there.  It's the exact same aiming technique that we humans have been using since we picked up a sharp stick [spear] and threw it at another human or an animal.  Spears don't come with iron sights.  We look at the target, not at the spear, and we lob that sucker with accuracy.  ..."

Ive found this to be true shootin the old iron pistolas n shotguns.  If ya shoot with both eyes open, looking at the target, simply bring the pistola to the target, and the sights appear.  This, indeed, may be the key to the red dot shooting technique... period...

This works with all firearms aimed at eye level.  The red dot has its clear advantage here, as it projects onto the target.. Im likin this red dot thing more n more...

Thanks for all the insight... Please keep talkin...

learnin leroy, the red dot toddler...

 

[Erik88]

10 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

Also, don’t buy Swampfox optics. Just have the slide’s recoil lugs milled to accept a trijicon or a Holosun. 

You're saying I would have to have the slide modified on a brand new gun just so it would work with decent red dots? Why would they design it that way? How much did would the slide work cost? 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Erik88

[TNMTBik3r]

24 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

You're saying I would have to have the slide modified on a brand new gun just so it would work with decent red dots? Why would they design it that way? How much did would the slide work cost? 

Springfield isn't the issue here, it is Holosun. The Hellcat uses the standard JP Enterprise / Shield RMSc footprint. The Holosun 407/507K uses a modified version of this footprint, and is not drilled for the two rear lugs.

The slide modification is to completely remove the two rear lugs and slightly file down the front two.

 

Quoted from another site:
"Because these are smaller than 407C, 507C, and 508T, Holosun had to use a different footprint. The sights mentioned use a Trijicon RMR platform whereas the new ‘K’ models have a modification of the Shield footprint instead. The two holes in the back are missing on the 407/507K footprint, and the recesses in the front are shallower than on Shield RMS and SMS sights. For this reason, some pistols, such as Hellcat and Walther PPS, will need to be modified for these two red dot sights to fit. Namely, the rear indexing lugs have to be removed and the front indexing lugs have to be shortened in length. Once the pistols are modified, you can still mount any of the red dot sights that have a Shield footprint."

[Chucktshoes]

@Erik88what he said. ^

[Erik88]

3 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

@Erik88what he said. ^

Seems like an unfortunate design. 

I went and fondled some handguns today that were red dot ready. I was excited about the FN 509 until I dry fired it. The trigger had to be one of the worst I've ever felt.

They didn't have a Hellcat in stock.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Erik88

[Grayfox54]

I've stayed out of this because I'm pretty much a non-tactical kinda guy. I can defend myself if need be, but I'm just not into all the bells and whistles.

I like optics on handguns for target shooting. I have both scopes and red dots on several handguns. For slow, precise fire, I love 'em. Now I do have a slightly older Burris RSR type sight  on the Browning Buckmark that hosts my suppressor. Hey. its great for accuracy WHEN I can find the dot.   Honestly, that's the whole problem with this set up. Trying to find that damned dot.  

Yeah, I know practice, practice, practice. But ya know what? Not all of us are super operators willing to spend hours and hours running drills for what "might" happen.  I got other things in my life to do. 

Where these sights truly shine is at longer distances. But let's be real. Odds are that if you ever are involved in a self defense shooting its most likely to happen at point shooting ranges where sights will be unimportant. And then, whatever happened to the wisdom that if the BG is that far away, your best course is to break contact and haul ass? 

Also bear in mind that we live in a world where people cut the spur off of a hammer or get melt down jobs in order to streamline their EDC and prevent the possibility of snagging.  And yet you want to stick a big old block on top of your gun? Really? 

JMHO: these sights are just the latest, hottest, high tech toy. Everybody wants to be the cool kid with all the bling. 

Edit to add:

An old saying that I truly believe in: Never trust your life to anything that requires a battery. 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Grayfox54

[robin48]

As soon as I get a big layaway paid off I'm going to get a Vortex Venom installed on my Masada. I decided on the Vortex for couple of reasons. One I like Vortex and two it's not as expensive as some others, that way if I dont care for ir I'm only out a couple hundred bucks.

[leroy]

Robin....

Im thinkin about a Masada and a Holosun myself...

RE... What grayfox said... At the end of the day, i view these gizmos as a range toy myself...

leroy....

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by leroy

[tmauto769]

16 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Seems like an unfortunate design. 

I went and fondled some handguns today that were red dot ready. I was excited about the FN 509 until I dry fired it. The trigger had to be one of the worst I've ever felt.

They didn't have a Hellcat in stock.

go to buds and fondle a shadow systems MR920 it has IMO the best optics mounting system there is and it is an excellent shooting gun. It is similarly priced to the FN509

[TGO David]

On 3/2/2021 at 2:15 PM, Grayfox54 said:

Also bear in mind that we live in a world where people cut the spur off of a hammer or get melt down jobs in order to streamline their EDC and prevent the possibility of snagging.  And yet you want to stick a big old block on top of your gun? Really? 

I am going to try to be polite but sooner or later it becomes important to speak truth and crush falsehoods, so if I start teetering there you're just going to have to forgive me or accept that my intentions are pure.

That said, this screams "I have never really tried to carry a gun with an optic IWB or AIWB in a quality holster and supported by a quality gun belt, so I am going to make an assumption and pass it off as an anecdotal bit of wisdom."

You're wrong.  Sorry.  Just wrong.  Unless you somehow manage to carry your handgun horizontally in your belt with the slide parallel to the ground, there is no way that a modern dot optic, mounted to the slide and not stacked on a dovetail mount or some other oddball fixture, riding along the same plane as the slide is going to cause you discomfort.  I almost doubt you'll even feel it.  I sure don't and I am not some Greek Adonis with washboard abs and 0% body fat either.  I like tacos.  Parts of me push AGAINST a holster and gun.  I never, ever feel the optic and it's never, ever snagged on anything during a draw.

 

On 3/2/2021 at 2:15 PM, Grayfox54 said:

JMHO: these sights are just the latest, hottest, high tech toy. Everybody wants to be the cool kid with all the bling. 

People also said that about the Model-T.

 

 

On 3/2/2021 at 2:15 PM, Grayfox54 said:

Edit to add:

An old saying that I truly believe in: Never trust your life to anything that requires a battery. 

People with pacemakers are truly #### out of luck then. 

 

[Smith]

I understand the idea of optics being hard to carry. I felt the same way when they first came out and to be fair, the first mounts and red dots did have some odd edges.Especially since a lot of them were dovetail/rear sight channel mounts. Once that was figured out and figured out quickly it's not a problem. It seems a bit counterintuitive, until you carry a modern pistol with an optic. It truly carriers no different than any other handgun I've ever carried and has never snagged on anything.

I do have "truck" guns and stash guns that do not have optics. That is purely for simplicity and the fact I don't get to check and change batteries regularly. However, on a carry gun it does not make sense to not have an optic. Especially in low light and adverse conditions. 

[Grayfox54]

Geez Dave, did I push a button there ? You seem upset.  

However, I'm not going to argue with you. I readily admit you know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do. I bow to your superior knowledge.  

I was merely offering the opinion of a very un-tacticool  old man. But I do stand by it. 

[Snaveba]

I have Shield SMSc and Holosun 507K sights and like them both. Both fit well on the P365XL and in a TC Apex Elite AIWB holster, I don’t feel a difference with the sight.  I also like tacos. I think my slight muffin top helps prevent imprinting.

To change the subject, has anyone tried a red (or green) dot sight by ADE? They are really inexpensive. Some times that means they are a good deal, sometimes that means they are cheap. 

I ask as am looking for an inexpensive red dot or low power illuminated reticle scope for an AR platform. 

[Chucktshoes]

Gotta say that I 100% agree with @TGO Davidhere. I EDC a Shadow Systems War Poet (G19 analogue) with a Holosun 507C on it in a T1C AIWB holster. The comfort and draw is no different than my M&P without an optic in the exact same holster. 
 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Chucktshoes

[leroy]

Brothers n Sisters...

If this stuff didnt work, we would certainly know about it.  It simply does work... That said, we all have preferences... The RMRs are tiny n weigh almost nothin.   These things are movin very quickly from the relm of the " Play Shooters " and tinkerers to the real world. 

The problem i wuz havin, wuz exactly how ya use em.  Im thinkin ive got that worked out now... Its the " look at the target n let the dot appear " method.  Im thinkin more n more that its a real good solution... All that from an Elmer Keith n single action devotee.  These guys are, indeed, small enough to carry.

leroy...

[TGO David]

35 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Geez Dave, did I push a button there ? You seem upset.  

However, I'm not going to argue with you. I readily admit you know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do. I bow to your superior knowledge.  

I was merely offering the opinion of a very un-tacticool  old man. But I do stand by it. 

Not upset in the least.

Here's the problem:  Your post got two "likes" from people who felt like the opinion you posted was factual and/or resonated with them.  We have no idea how many people read it and didn't respond or post a reaction, and we have no idea how many more would silently read it and be influenced by it over the course of time.

Most people will just accept it for what it was, an opinion, and move forward and accumulate other enough opinions and facts to form a decision of their own.  But some people will read it, take it as  The Truth, stop and go no further.

We have to be careful to sort opinion from fact, or at least be willing to qualify our opinions with firsthand experience so that they are approaching something factual.  People read what we write here.  If they didn't, what's the point of us writing it?

 

So let's back up and take another pass at this using the very last statement in the reply I quoted above.  You offered your opinion and you stand by it.  What experience have you had with carrying an optic-equipped handgun, concealed, that validates your opinion that it's less comfortable and more likely to snag on things when you draw it?

You've thrown those statements out there, so it's your responsibility to feed and care for them.

 

[tmauto769]

Also I would like to respond to this comment "An old saying that I truly believe in: Never trust your life to anything that requires a battery. "

There are people in far nastier places than most of us will ever be in trusting lots of things requiring batteries. Also I can still see my sights through the RMR so I don't get it? Am I missing something?

[deerslayer]

4 hours ago, Smith said:

However, on a carry gun it does not make sense to not have an optic. 

I disagree and I have quite a bit of trigger time with a dot gun.  Outside of maybe trying to quickly ice an active shooter at 50 yards with a headshot, I can’t think of a self-defense scenario I am likely to encounter where I can do something with a dot that I can’t do with a good set of irons. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by deerslayer

[Smith]

12 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I disagree and I have quite a bit of trigger time with a dot gun.  Outside of maybe trying to tag an active shooter at 50 yards with a headshot, I can’t think of a self-defense scenario I am likely to encounter where I can do something with a dot that I can’t do with a good set of irons. 

That's kinda of the point. Everything you can do with iron sights, you can do with an optic... plus more.  If irons and optics are at least even for most scenarios and the optic gives you those scenarios plus more scenario possibilities where the irons are limited... It doesn't make good sense not to have an optic.

[Grayfox54]

Good grief, I never meant to make a fuss. 

As for the battery comment, everything I have with any kind of battery powered optic is set up so it can be quickly and easily removed. It also has iron sights. Just in case. 

I still stand by my post. So let's just agree to disagree and move on. Shall we? 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Grayfox54

[deerslayer]

14 minutes ago, Smith said:

That's kinda of the point. Everything you can do with iron sights, you can do with an optic... plus more.  If irons and optics are at least even for most scenarios and the optic gives you those scenarios plus more scenario possibilities where the irons are limited... It doesn't make good sense not to have an optic.

...until the optic fails.  

[Smith]

4 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

...until the optic fails.  

Then you use the co-witness iron sights.  

[Grayfox54]

1 hour ago, Smith said:

Then you use the co-witness iron sights.  

That's my point. You're prepared for when the battery powered optic fails. 

[Erik88]

9 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Good grief, I never meant to make a fuss.

Yeah I'm not sure what they issue is. Your first post had valid reasons why you don't want a red dot. 

I think they are neat and will probably buy one eventually but I seriously doubt it's a "need" and really more of a "want". 

Some people feel the need to have every latest tacti-cool item on the market and then have to justify said expense. 

I wonder if Jack Wilson was running a red dot.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Erik88

[deerslayer]

8 hours ago, Smith said:

Then you use the co-witness iron sights.  

One of the times a dot failed on me was when I stepped out of an air conditioned vehicle into a muggy about-to-rain morning and the glass fogged up for a couple minutes.  Co-witnessed irons would have been useless.  If one managed to crack the glass, back up irons would still be useless.