Optics ready pistolas... Somethin to play with or the " Real Deal "..?

[DJTC45]

7 hours ago, TGO David said:

I've written about red dot optics on handguns many, many times here on TGO.  They are the way forward.  Period.  I probably have more money invested in dot optics and having slides milled for them than most folks have in handguns.   I own more than a few and I have spent countless hours getting pretty good with them and good at teaching people to use them effectively. 

They aren't a fad and they aren't a niche anymore.  They've become mainstream because they work and they are a vast improvement over iron sights.  And as long as you stay with proven brands like Trijicon and Holosun, they are reliable even for duty use.

 

Seeing that Staccato P with that crazy dovetail mounting plate just hurts my soul.  Those mounting plates will get a dot on your gun for cheap but they are like buying a sex doll and thinking it's anything like the real deal.  It's just not.  The height over bore is wonky and it will feel alien and unnatural holding the gun lower than you normally would just to get a decent alignment with the optic and your eye.

I also dislike most of the OEM mounting systems that use plates to affix various red dots to the top of the slide for some of the same reasons.   The Glock MOS and M&P CORE systems both put the optic higher than they could be if the slide was just machined for for the specific optic.  The MOS and CORE plates also don't provide much material for the optic's screws to go into.  This leads to failures and people assuming that red dot optics on handguns is a bad idea.

C&H Precision Weapons (CHPWS) makes improved plates for the Glock and M&P that makes it a little better.

 

FN USA has a better plate design for the 509 MRD.  CZ USA has a pretty good plate setup for the P10C OR.  Shadow Systems has the best design, period, for using a variety of optics in the MR918, MR920 and DR920 lines.  The optic sits nice and low in the slide and is held down by the longest screws I've seen yet.

I've got a few Staccatos now.  The 2019 and 2020 DUO models were pretty good but Dawson Precision makes the plates for them and believes in THICK material.  The 2020 and 2021 DPO models are better and Dawson's plates for them seem to be thinner and more in line with what CHPWS makes.   My 2021 C2 DPO with a Holosun 507K is damn near perfection.

I am anxious to get my hands on the new Walther PDP.  They seem to have really designed that gun around the CHPWS mounting plate system and set them pretty low into the slide with good mounting hardware.  I think it'll be the gun to beat if you're lookin for a sub $1000 gun with optic this year.

 

Like I said, I know the mount I chose was not the IDEAL MOUNT, I didn't want to spend $600 to get my Staccato P 4.14's slide milled and refinished. If I didn't like it I would have a hard time reselling something that had been modified that others might not care for, as far as the sex doll comments, I've got nothing to say about that, if you don't like it that's your opinion(and we all know the saying about opinions). I'm going to try it out and then if I like it I'll have the slide milled, if not I'll sell the HOLOSUN.

[leroy]

9 hours ago, Snaveba said:

 
 

a down side of the red dot, at least with the smaller ones is in the dark. The window is small and it is not as easy to get on target. As such l, my home pistol is my M&P 2.0 with night sights. Much easier to see those sights in the dark. 

Ya hit the nail in the head for me too Brother...  This is big concern i aint quite worked thru myself...

Thanks a bunch...

leroy

[MacGyver]

Young eyes or old eyes, it takes a lot of dry fire practice to reliably get that red dot in your field of view on presentation.

And, you've got to get that squared away before you consider moving to trusting it for EDC.

But, what it actually highlights for most people is the training scars that they've acquired through years of maybe less than ideal practice. So, going through the dry fire process a lot will actually be working to correct some of those old scars with new, better ones.

They're worth putting the time into.  Watching your hits go reliably out from where you were comfortable before is pretty cool.

[deerslayer]

I shot a dot-equipped Glock and a Walther extensively in USPSA for a year or so and found irons to be quicker inside 10 yards.  Dots are the ticket for aging eyes, though.  

[billmeek]

For me, the trick to get the dot to present reliably is to squeeze with the pinky a small amount.  This forces the middle and ring finger to tighten up the grip a bit and point correctly.  If I'm going to be off, it's invariably the barrel is high.  So the pinky trick pulls the barrel downward.

At short ranges, I don't even look for the dot and just point shoot instead.  Middle ranges I use the 32 MOA circle on the Holosun and save the 2 MOA dot for long range/precision shots.

[Snaveba]

3 hours ago, leroy said:

Ya hit the nail in the head for me too Brother...  This is big concern i aint quite worked thru myself...

Thanks a bunch...

leroy

I think if I still had rear night sights on my P365XL it might make acquiring the dot in the small window in the dark easier. I can see the front sight in the dark, but with nothing to line it up with, and with no visual of the window, it is tricky. A lot of dry fire practice would probably help with the muscle memory. 

[TGO David]

21 hours ago, Snaveba said:

a down side of the red dot, at least with the smaller ones is in the dark. The window is small and it is not as easy to get on target. As such l, my home pistol is my M&P 2.0 with night sights. Much easier to see those sights in the dark. 

I haven't found that to be the case but I've done literally thousands and thousands of draw and presentations with the dot on the various platforms that I own.  Proprioception plays a huge role in being a fast and accurate shooter with any gun, but especially a handgun and double especially (is that a thing?) a handgun with a dot optic.

Here's the thing about iron sights that people often fail to recognize when they make statements about them being faster to acquire than a red dot:

Iron sights mask problems with presentation.

 

Most people use them to "steer" the gun on target.  Period.  End of story.  Watch other people shoot at the range.  Video yourself or at least be very observant, honest and "in the moment".  Do it from a draw or at least a low ready.  I bet you'll notice that your eyes flick from the target to the front sight and then to the back sight as you rock the gun into a position level with the target.  Your eyes may flick back and forth quickly between target, front sight and rear sight several times through the course of presenting it, lining it up, and pulling the trigger.

It happens very fast and typically subconsciously, and it eats up "clock cycles" (milliseconds or maybe even a full second or two).  A person who has honed their proprioception -- their ability to innately know where the ends of their extremities are during the full range of their motion -- with a gun in hand to be able to efficiently and accurately match hand motion to eye location can typically outrun a person who's brain is occupied with the task of steering the gun on target and then fine-tuning their alignment.

 

Iron sights have three planes of focus:  Target, Front Sight, Rear Sight.

Dot optics have one plane of focus:  Target

 

People who are fast with irons in close distances are generally using a target-focused (single plane) approach because required accuracy at that distance is relevant to the task.  They shift back to three planes of focus for better accuracy, especially at further distances.

A dot shooter shouldn't do that and a good dot shooter won't.  Their eyes should be focused crisply on the target and the dot simply appears on the target as they bring the gun to bear, using proprioception to get it there.  It's the exact same aiming technique that we humans have been using since we picked up a sharp stick [spear] and threw it at another human or an animal.  Spears don't come with iron sights.  We look at the target, not at the spear, and we lob that sucker with accuracy.

Sharp Stick, meet Red Dot.

 

Anyway, about the whole red dot optic at night thing... it's literally a GLOWING illuminated projection inside of a small box.  I see that a hell of a lot faster in the dark than I do a small Tritium lamp or three. 

 

[Snaveba]

7 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I haven't found that to be the case but I've done literally thousands and thousands of draw and presentation with the dot the various platforms that I own.  Proprioception plays a huge role in being a fast and accurate shooter with any gun, but especially a handgun and double especially (is that a thing?) a handgun with a dot optic.

Here's the thing about iron sights that people often fail to recognize when they make statements about them being faster to acquire than a red dot:

Iron sights mask problems with presentation.

 

Most people use them to "steer" the gun on target.  Period.  End of story.  Watch other people shoot at the range.  Video yourself or at least be very observant, honest and "in the moment".  Do it from a draw or at least a low ready.  I bet you'll notice that your eyes flick from the target to the front sight and then to the back sight as you rock the gun into a position level with the target.  Your eyes may flick back and forth quickly between target, front sight and rear sight several times through the course of presenting it, lining it up, and pulling the trigger.

It happens very fast and typically subconsciously, and it eats up "clock cycles" (milliseconds or maybe even a full second or two).  A person who has honed their proprioception -- their ability to innately know where the ends of their extremities are during the full range of their motion -- with a gun in hand to be able to efficiently and accurately match hand motion to eye location can typically outrun a person who's brain is occupied with the task of steering the gun on target and then fine-tuning their alignment.

 

Iron sights have three planes of focus:  Target, Front Sight, Rear Sight.

Dot optics have one plane of focus:  Target

 

People who are fast with irons in close distances are generally using a target-focused (single plane) approach because required accuracy at that distance is relevant to the task.  They shift back to three planes of focus for better accuracy, especially at further distances.

A dot shooter shouldn't do that and a good dot shooter won't.  Their eyes should be focused crisply on the target and the dot simply appears on the target as they bring the gun to bear, using proprioception to get it there.  It's the exact same aiming technique that we humans have been using since we picked up a sharp stick [spear] and threw it at another human or an animal.  Spears don't come with iron sights.  We look at the target, not at the spear, and we lob that sucker with accuracy.

Sharp Stick, meet Red Dot.

 

Anyway, about the whole red dot optic at night thing... it's literally a GLOWING illuminated projection inside of a small box.  I see that a hell of a lot faster in the dark than I do a small Tritium lamp or three. 

 

I totally understand. I don’t have thousands of draws with my pistol. I recognize that practice makes perfect and the more I practice bringing the red dot up to target, the easier it will be in the dark.
I do wonder with the larger window on a red dot sight for a full sized pistol, it would be easier to locate the reticle in the dark. 

[A.J. Holst]

I have an RMR type 2 on the way for a Beretta APX RDO.

Will report back.

As far as use, I like the concept of where the dot is, the bullet goes.

It should decrease the amount of time I need to make accurate shots at 15 yards + and more speed at closer ranges.

[A.J. Holst]

2 minutes ago, Snaveba said:

do wonder with the larger window on a red dot sight for a full sized pistol, it would be easier to locate the reticle in the dark.

The window isn't that much bigger, I suspect you would still be hunting the dot.

@TGO David shared:  with thousands of presentations, he knows when the pistol is coming into his eye line and exactly where the dot will be every time.

I am going to learn quickly if my draw is the same each time and what I will need to work on.

[deerslayer]

51 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I haven't found that to be the case but I've done literally thousands and thousands of draw and presentations with the dot on the various platforms that I own.  Proprioception plays a huge role in being a fast and accurate shooter with any gun, but especially a handgun and double especially (is that a thing?) a handgun with a dot optic.

Here's the thing about iron sights that people often fail to recognize when they make statements about them being faster to acquire than a red dot:

Iron sights mask problems with presentation.

 

Most people use them to "steer" the gun on target.  Period.  End of story.  Watch other people shoot at the range.  Video yourself or at least be very observant, honest and "in the moment".  Do it from a draw or at least a low ready.  I bet you'll notice that your eyes flick from the target to the front sight and then to the back sight as you rock the gun into a position level with the target.  Your eyes may flick back and forth quickly between target, front sight and rear sight several times through the course of presenting it, lining it up, and pulling the trigger.

It happens very fast and typically subconsciously, and it eats up "clock cycles" (milliseconds or maybe even a full second or two).  A person who has honed their proprioception -- their ability to innately know where the ends of their extremities are during the full range of their motion -- with a gun in hand to be able to efficiently and accurately match hand motion to eye location can typically outrun a person who's brain is occupied with the task of steering the gun on target and then fine-tuning their alignment.

 

Iron sights have three planes of focus:  Target, Front Sight, Rear Sight.

Dot optics have one plane of focus:  Target

 

People who are fast with irons in close distances are generally using a target-focused (single plane) approach because required accuracy at that distance is relevant to the task.  They shift back to three planes of focus for better accuracy, especially at further distances.

A dot shooter shouldn't do that and a good dot shooter won't.  Their eyes should be focused crisply on the target and the dot simply appears on the target as they bring the gun to bear, using proprioception to get it there.  It's the exact same aiming technique that we humans have been using since we picked up a sharp stick [spear] and threw it at another human or an animal.  Spears don't come with iron sights.  We look at the target, not at the spear, and we lob that sucker with accuracy.

Sharp Stick, meet Red Dot.

 

Anyway, about the whole red dot optic at night thing... it's literally a GLOWING illuminated projection inside of a small box.  I see that a hell of a lot faster in the dark than I do a small Tritium lamp or three. 

 

 

Proprioception honing can benefit an irons shooter as well.  Building a natural "index" through extensive dry practice will help a dot or irons shooter.  Some of the better USPSA/IDPA shooters target focus with irons at most distances.  This probably sounds sacrilegious to some and Col. Cooper might roll over in his grave, but they do and they win doing it.  I am not talking about Bullseye shooting, but some upper crust action pistol-type iron sight shooters who need QUICK good-enough accuracy (two A-zone hits) can target focus and hold their own against dot shooters.  

[TGO David]

40 minutes ago, A.J. Holst said:

The window isn't that much bigger, I suspect you would still be hunting the dot.

@TGO David shared:  with thousands of presentations, he knows when the pistol is coming into his eye line and exactly where the dot will be every time.

I am going to learn quickly if my draw is the same each time and what I will need to work on.

 

[TGO David]

Just now, deerslayer said:

 

Proprioception honing can benefit an irons shooter as well.  Building a natural "index" through extensive dry practice will help a dot or irons shooter.  Some of the better USPSA/IDPA shooters target focus with irons at most distances.  This probably sounds sacrilegious to some and Col. Cooper might roll over in his grave, but they do and they win doing it.  I am not talking about Bullseye shooting, but some upper crust action pistol-type iron sight shooters who need QUICK good-enough accuracy (two A-zone hits) can target focus and hold their own against dot shooters.  

YEP!!!  The big league competitive shooters definitely do it.

Shooting with a dot for a while makes you a better and iron sight shooter, especially in "social distances".  I am pretty sure that greats like Brian Enos and Rob Leatham figured it out a long time ago before dot optics were much of a thing.  They'd focus on the sights when they had to, but when they really needed to push the gas pedal down they were more than capable of making A-zone hits without them in order to go faster.

It really wasn't until I started shooting with a red dot and learning to trust my motor skills to swing the gun to wherever my eyes were already looking that I truly understood what it meant to be able to "call your shots".  If I am shooting multi-target drills, by the time the sear breaks and my finger is coming forward off of the trigger, my eyes have already moved to my point of aim on the next target and I'm pivoting toward it.  I know before I even look at the last target whether I hit where I wanted to or not because I'm aware of where the dot was when I pulled the trigger and whether it stayed there all the way through the break.

I love the fact that guys like Enos and Leatham were doing that with iron sights and running circles around their competitors until the competition caught on and started doing it too.

[TGO David]

13 hours ago, Snaveba said:

I do wonder with the larger window on a red dot sight for a full sized pistol, it would be easier to locate the reticle in the dark. 

I wanted to come back to this comment albeit not entirely from the perspective of finding the dot reticle in the dark but just in general regarding the size of the window glass.

In terms of days/months/years, I have spent a longer period of time behind a Trijicon RMR RM07 Type 2.  This is the one with the 6.5MOA dot.  I really do like that larger dot for handguns.

That said, I have also had a gen-1 Holosun HE508T for about two years now and recently added both the new gen-2 Holosun HE508T-X2 and a 507K-X2 to my pile of optics.  The 507K is their new smaller optic.  It's smaller than the 507C and 508T and presumably meant for subcompact guns.  I run mine on a Staccato C2 DPO with the "Carry" height (low profile) iron sights because I wanted to try something different and wanted to see if an optic that was little shorter, height-wise, made any perceptible difference in comfort or performance for concealed carry.  So far the answers to those to questions are: Maybe and No.

The larger glass on the 508T (and the 507C and 509T) is very nice and helps you frame more of the surrounding scene in the glass and will serve you well if you are comfortable carrying the slightly larger optic.  Again, the size of them hasn't really impacted me for comfort in carrying either way.

The other nice thing about these is that all of the models I have mentioned have the configurable reticle that allows you a 2MOA dot only, a 32MOA ring only, or the 2MOA dot inside of the 32MOA ring.  I kind of like that last configuration most just because I tend to favor a larger dot but the large outer ring seems to augment the dot.  The 2MOA dot by itself is really nice for precision shooting, but that's not where my interests particularly lie for a handgun.

Viva, options!

 

[Snaveba]

The Holosun 507K is what I run on my EDC. I do like the option of different reticle size and brightness. I can see the possible benefit is seeing more of the surrounding scene in the window.
 

To me the smaller one is just a way to project the dot in my field of vision, but I don’t really try to “see” the target through the window. 

[Chucktshoes]

I do have to admit that I’ve developed a real fondness for the Eotech style donut of death dot/circle reticle. It’s fast when I want it to be and precise when I need it to be. 

[DJTC45]

TGO David, you'll be happy to hear that I removed the Dovetail Mount that made you wince in pain and put the rear sight back on. I just ordered a Staccato P DPO and should be here in about two weeks then I will mount my HOLOSUN 507c x2 on it. Can't wait to get it and try it out.

[leroy]

David.  

RE. This:  "...   I kind of like that last configuration (..dot donut...)  most just because I tend to favor a larger dot but the large outer ring seems to augment the dot.  ..."

I'm liking this idea alot.  This could probably solve my consternation a bit.  

Thanks.  

leroy. 

[Grunt67]

On 2/24/2021 at 8:57 PM, TGO David said:

 

 

 

 

 

I am anxious to get my hands on the new Walther PDP.  They seem to have really designed that gun around the CHPWS mounting plate system and set them pretty low into the slide with good mounting hardware.  I think it'll be the gun to beat if you're lookin for a sub $1000 gun with optic this year.

 I read the article in American Rifleman on the PDP.  Already had a heads up from Walther, but this was a good thorough article on it. I have a PPS w/RSMC factory mount. I like this PDP better in some ways.  Not enough at this time to trade, but would be on it if not for that.

Walther really has done their  homework on this.

 And as you said, the red dot system isn't  a toy any longer. It's here to stay for good reason.

On 2/24/2021 at 8:57 PM, TGO David said:

 

 

[TGO David]

On 2/26/2021 at 4:19 PM, DJTC45 said:

TGO David, you'll be happy to hear that I removed the Dovetail Mount that made you wince in pain and put the rear sight back on. I just ordered a Staccato P DPO and should be here in about two weeks then I will mount my HOLOSUN 507c x2 on it. Can't wait to get it and try it out.

I wish I'd known that you wanted a Staccato P.  I am teetering on the edge of selling mine and just focusing on the C2 that I have.

You're going to love the way the dot rides on the slide, though! 

 

[DJTC45]

15 hours ago, TGO David said:

I wish I'd known that you wanted a Staccato P.  I am teetering on the edge of selling mine and just focusing on the C2 that I have.

You're going to love the way the dot rides on the slide, though! 

 

I apologize if I came off like I was mad, I understand that it is better to have the Red Dot mounted on the Slide. I just traded for one of the new Staccato P DPO, do you know anything about those. I know they use a Plate from Dawson Precision, do you think that was a good choice, if I can sell my Detonics Combat Master I listed here I might be interested in your Staccato if you want to sell, just let me know sometime. I'll post some pics when I get the DPO in.

[TGO David]

17 hours ago, DJTC45 said:

I apologize if I came off like I was mad, I understand that it is better to have the Red Dot mounted on the Slide. I just traded for one of the new Staccato P DPO, do you know anything about those. I know they use a Plate from Dawson Precision, do you think that was a good choice, if I can sell my Detonics Combat Master I listed here I might be interested in your Staccato if you want to sell, just let me know sometime. I'll post some pics when I get the DPO in.

The DPO is the 2021 series of the Staccato optics-ready line.  They cut the price by $200 on them but they don't include the optics mounting plate and they no longer nitride the barrel.  Both are available as options.  You can buy the optics plate from Staccato or you can do like I do and go straight to Dawson Precision for it.  It's the same price and Dawson tends to have them in stock since they manufacture them for Staccato.

 

[Erik88]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:46 PM, Chucktshoes said:

My Springfield Hellcat OSP

Have you given a review of this gun? Currently watching Hickok's video but I'm curious to get your thoughts. Apparently there is some drama with Springfield I missed.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Erik88

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

Have you given a review of this gun? Currently watching Hickok's video but I'm curious to get your thoughts. Apparently there is some drama with Springfield I missed.

I haven’t. I’m really terrible about giving reviews of stuff. The quick and dirty is that I like it. I really like the sights on it. Very quick and intuitive. It’s a little snappier than the Sig P365, but honestly, I like the grip texture a bit better. The dual layer sound gimmicky, and maybe it is, but I find it grippy in the hand without being abrasive in the holster. I’ve put around 500ish rds through it with zero issues. 
 

 

Also, don’t buy Swampfox optics. Just have the slide’s recoil lugs milled to accept a trijicon or a Holosun. 

[TNMTBik3r]

9 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

Also, don’t buy Swampfox optics. Just have the slide’s recoil lugs milled to accept a trijicon or a Holosun. 

Or look at the new Hex Wasp that Springfield announced recently. I'm waiting on some reviews to drop before I make a decision on finally adding an optic to my Hellcat. https://www.hexoptics.com/wasp-micro-red-dot-sight/

If you don't want to mess with modifying the Hellcat slide for a Holosun, there is an adapter plate available. https://chpws.com/product/springfield-hellcat-to-holosun-407k-507k-adapter-plate

 

 

I just picked up a G45 MOS I have been waiting on, and trying to find an optic for it now. I have the Vortex Venom on my G34 and it has been great, but going with a different offering this time. It looks like the Holosun 507C will be the winner.