Opinions/experience wanted

[Marswolf]

I don't understand why there is such a difference in the shooting qualification part from different instructors. I would think the state would mandate exactly what is required and how it is scored.

Anyone have a web page that outlines exactly what the firing qualification requirements are for the carry permit? I couldn't find one. http://www.tennessee.gov/sos/rules/1340/1340-02/1340-02-03.pdf says that "All firing shall be done on standard silhouette type targets or others approved by the Program Director." and that a minimum score of 70% is required, but doesn't specify distances and how the targets are scored.

[Guest BigBoostDSM]

That was something that I was looking for as well, but in all of my searching I just couldn't come up with anything. I'm surprised that they don't have at least some more detailed basic guidelines set out.

[dkd83]

BigBoost,

The DMV at the Strawplains exit (exit 398 on I40) is super nice. I filled out/submitted my HCP application there on a Friday and the total time in and out was around 30 minutes. I got there around 3pm.

[molonlabetn]

The scoring is indeed subjective... The class I took only required 70% of the shots to be in the black. The class my wife took (Thanks Len!), had points-based scoring, and anything outside of the 7-ring was a miss.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to allow instructors flexibility to score the shooting test as they see fit. I don't think it's acceptable that some only challenge their students with the bare minimum requirement (as I was).

But, all in all... no single 8-12hr class could fully prepare a person to defend themselves with a firearm. It takes the proper mentality, and familiarity with one's firearm. The more, the better.

[Guest BigBoostDSM]

BigBoost,

The DMV at the Strawplains exit (exit 398 on I40) is super nice. I filled out/submitted my HCP application there on a Friday and the total time in and out was around 30 minutes. I got there around 3pm.

I need to get my drivers license transferred from Illinois to Tennessee, is that a full service station? Also, I was told to do the HCP app at the center park location because they can take the digital fingerprints which allows for a much shorter turnaround.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

From what I understand the lack of a mandated # of shots at mandated distances is due to the different facilities between schools. Where I teach we shoot out to 17 yards because that is as far as our indoor range goes. So if it were MANDATED 25 yards then we couldn't be a certified school.

Also it is frankly going to be rather difficult for the average Joe to articulate why he was shooting at someone that far away.

[dkd83]

Bigboost,

It is full service but I had to get the fingerprinting done at another location. If you can get the prints done at Center Park, that will save you a trip elsewhere and should shave a few days off the process.

[Guest Len]

As y'all might imagine, I agree with Molonlabetn on this. When I took my carry permit class, anything inside the black outline was a hit. I got a 100% and thought I was hot s#%@. Only later did I learn I couldn't shoot worth a d@#$. Obviously, as an instructor, I like the flexibility to score as you please, but on the other hand, it seems some schools pass you if you merely point the gun in the general direction of the target and hope for the best. I would think some minimum requirements regarding the scoring system would not hurt.

And, of course, that first class should be just that, the FIRST step in a process of education. There is no substitute for good, thoughtful, practice and some good training, except real-world experience, and not all of us have that.

The scoring is indeed subjective... The class I took only required 70% of the shots to be in the black. The class my wife took (Thanks Len!), had points-based scoring, and anything outside of the 7-ring was a miss.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to allow instructors flexibility to score the shooting test as they see fit. I don't think it's acceptable that some only challenge their students with the bare minimum requirement (as I was).

But, all in all... no single 8-12hr class could fully prepare a person to defend themselves with a firearm. It takes the proper mentality, and familiarity with one's firearm. The more, the better.

[Guest BigBoostDSM]

Bigboost,

It is full service but I had to get the fingerprinting done at another location. If you can get the prints done at Center Park, that will save you a trip elsewhere and should shave a few days off the process.

In that case I'll probably just stick to the one on Center park since it's closer to me anyways.

[Marswolf]

In my class, anything in the black silhouette was considered a hit. 70% is always passing according to the DOS, but the question is what constitutes a hit. I have to vehemently disagree with letting the instructor set that definition. I wouldn't mind setting the standards as more strict than just hitting the silhouette, but I want the standards to be the same at each school in order to be fair to the participants.

I'm also pretty sure we shot at 3, 7, and 15 yards. I think that should be standardized too. Everyone should get the same test.

In my case I did 100% on both the shooting qualification and the written test. But that was expected.

I agree with Cruel Hand Luke though that if someone is 25 yards away, you will have a hard time justifying the use of the handgun for self defense. Probably hard to justify it at any more than 15 feet unless you are under fire. Frankly, I don't see a reason to qualify beyond 10 yards for a carry permit.

And I agree with Len that talking this one class should just be part of your education in shooting guns. It needn't necessarily be a formal course in my opinion, but that will work if you don't have someone who knows what they are doing and that can tell you what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.

So, can one of you instructors provide the official language for setting up the shooting qualification and scoring? I'd appreciate it.

[Branket]

I went to the DOS on center park and I had to get my prints taken elsewhere, maybe they have gotten the equipment in the last couple of months though.

[Guest Len]

As you can see here, the course of fire is NOT specified in the law, but the law allows the DOS to create the CoF. I don't have the DOS rules with me now, but there is an approved CoF that requires x # of shots at x yards, etc. Min of 48 rounds. Anyone have a copy of the DOS rules handy? I forget the exact CoF.

In my class, anything in the black silhouette was considered a hit. 70% is always passing according to the DOS, but the question is what constitutes a hit. I have to vehemently disagree with letting the instructor set that definition. I wouldn't mind setting the standards as more strict than just hitting the silhouette, but I want the standards to be the same at each school in order to be fair to the participants.

I'm also pretty sure we shot at 3, 7, and 15 yards. I think that should be standardized too. Everyone should get the same test.

In my case I did 100% on both the shooting qualification and the written test. But that was expected.

I agree with Cruel Hand Luke though that if someone is 25 yards away, you will have a hard time justifying the use of the handgun for self defense. Probably hard to justify it at any more than 15 feet unless you are under fire. Frankly, I don't see a reason to qualify beyond 10 yards for a carry permit.

And I agree with Len that talking this one class should just be part of your education in shooting guns. It needn't necessarily be a formal course in my opinion, but that will work if you don't have someone who knows what they are doing and that can tell you what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.

So, can one of you instructors provide the official language for setting up the shooting qualification and scoring? I'd appreciate it.

[Marswolf]

As you can see here, the course of fire is NOT specified in the law, but the law allows the DOS to create the CoF.

That's my point Len. But there does have to be some document setting limits on what is required in the qualification. I'd like to see what the rules actually are. It just seems to me that the standards should be uniform.

[Mike.357]

I filled out the required paperwork on Strawberry Plains. Went the Tuesday after Memorial Day around 2:00 pm. Was in and out in 20 minutes at the most. I was electronically fingerprinted at the UPS Store in Halls, that took all of five minutes. And BTW the fee you pay at the DOS covers the fingerprinting, there is no extra charge from UPS.

My class shot 48 rounds from 3 yards to 15 yards. All hits on the silhouette counted. I think the distances were 12 shots each at 3 yards, 7 yards, 10 yards and 15 yards. I took the class from the Knox Country Regional Sherrifs Training Center on Maloneyville Rd. It cost $85 and took all day, about 9 hours on a Saturday. The indoor range there was awesome, never seen anything like it. If I was a cop I would be shooting there all the time.

Time from date of class to receiving permit was like 32 or 33 days.

[Guest Boomhower]

Well, I am going to be very discreet about the location from which I took my HCP class. I took the class a several months back, but class started at 8am. There were 30 some odd ppl present. Instructor gave a small speech, we watched the mandatory video, and took the test. If I remember correctly, it was about 10 multiple choice questions on the front and 10 true or false questions on the back. However, the questions from the front and back were the same, just asked in a different manner, but you still came up with the same answer. Then off to the range close to a state park. We shot 50 rds. 3 yrds out, 5 shots right hand only. 3 yrds out, 5 shots left hand only. 7 yrds out, 20 shots both hands. 15 yrds out, 20 shots both hands. I have no idea how I was scored, but I was told “good jobâ€. Got my certificate and was back at home between 12pm and 1pm. This included roughly 45 min. of driving time (total) from the testing location to the range and from the range to my house.

Now everyone can close their jaw:eek:……This is the reason that I wished I had of found Phantom6 before hand. I have talked with him personally many times about his classes, and have heard from others as well. I am currently trying to talk my wife into getting her HCP, and If I can, she and I both will be going thru Mike’s Basic pistol class to get a start on some real training. Only I already have my HCP.

Also Bigboost, just to give you another option, I went to the Maryville DMV and got my HCP done, but I work in Alcoa. I got there at 8 when they opened and was back to work by 9. You just need to know the right times to go, and most will tell you if you call and ask the best time to come. But if you go that early, don’t pay them with 2 $100 dollar bills. You will get about $60 back in $1 dollar bills:D. They only have minimal cash that early in the morning. As mentioned above, what you pay the DMV also covers the finger printing, so don’t pay anyone before hand to do the finger printing. They will give you a number to call when you leave. You call the number and they will tell you the nearest place to you to get finger printed, but you will have to wait 24 hrs in order for them to put you into their system. I also went to the UPS store in halls and was in and out in a flash.

[Guest Phantom6]

That's my point Len. But there does have to be some document setting limits on what is required in the qualification. I'd like to see what the rules actually are. It just seems to me that the standards should be uniform.

There is such a document. It is the DOS HCP Lesson Plan.

1. 12 rnds at 3 yds.
   
2. 12 rds at 7 yds.
   
3. 12 rds at 15 yds
   
4. 12 rds at any distance from 2-25 yds.(Instructor's choice here)

48 rds. total with the best possible score on a standard B-27 target being 480 (X-ring is counted as 10 along with the 10 ring.

The state essentially requires that you put 48 holes in the paper 70% within the scoring rings) in order to pass. That would be a score of about 235. I've never had anyone score that low. Sorry folks, head shots don't count.

We do not shoot at anything over 15 yds because in doing so in a real life situation you are more likely to find yourself in a near legally indefensible situation.

Our students tend to turn in better shooting scores just as Branket did because in the classes that we teach we spend a lot of time (about 2 hours) on shooting fundimentals which the state does not require.

As several have mentioned, if you think that a day of instruction will prepare you for a gunfight you are sadly mistaken. That takes training and continual practice- at least if you want to win that confrontation. The latest FBI crime statistics say that the BG's are training with their weapons. and spend more time at the range than the avg. police officer does. We submit that permit holders should as well.

Speaking of classes I've got to teach one begining in about 2 hours from now so I'd better gather my guns and go.

[Marswolf]

Well Boom, I think you know that class wasn't "legal." I don' think the one I did spent four hours on the shooting part either, but we did get in the eight hours required.

[Marswolf]

There is such a document. It is the DOS HCP Lesson Plan.

Thanks Phantom. That post answers my questions.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Let me add something here to clarify what I was saying earlier and what others have echoed.

I said most would PROBABLY have a hard time in court having shot someone that far away. In reality I know of 2 shootings that took place at that distance HERE IN TENNESSEE. Both were good shootings and both were necessary to save the shooter in one case and the shooter's child in the other case. So please do not quote me as saying you will "NEVER" shoot that distance. But it is statisticly RARE.

My issue with using that distance in a CCW class is that frankly you just do not have the time in 4 hours of range work to ingrain in a newby the trigger control to make those hits regularly. A guy who has never shot before who shows up with a SW 642 (DAO revolver) is NOT going to do well at 25 yards.

I also do not want to give someone the idea that they are going to LIKELY be shooting at that distance. The issue is more a "you are responsable for everything that leaves yuor muzzle" than anything else. If we ENCOURAGE guys (and gals) who are NOT going to get any further training (and we KNOW most don't) to shoot at that distance then we are doing a disservice to everyone else who might be down range when Joe Citizen hauls out his snubby and starts firing away at the BGs from across the parking lot when he sees a little old lady getting robbed.

Is there a time and place for teaching long distance pistol shooting? ABSOLUTELY, but that is just (IMHO) not the CCW class. I prefer to spend more time in the limited time I have them in class giving them what to look for in pre fight cues, giving them a better understanding of distance issues such as how close is too close to let someone approach before you tell them to stop and how quickly distance can be covered and working on the close distance intervals where the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of fights really occur. I teach them how to manipulate the trigger for precise shooting, but tell them that is a skill they will have to hone on their own at home.

I just wanted to clear this up before people point to me to say that I say you don't need to learn to shoot well at distance. You need to learn to shoot well PERIOD. At ALL distances.Especially if you are going to carry a pistol. But the CCW class just is not long enough to do that.

Actually the more likely use of precision shooting would be at a close target that is obscured by cover or by someone who does NOT need to be shot. Think in terms of in and around cars (lots of robberies happen in parking lots!) or think in terms of helping a 3rd person but the victim is obscuring your view of the BG. If someone is obscured by a vehicle (especially if they are IN the vehicle) it is pretty similar to shooting a full size target far away. Same thing with a partial target that is blocked by a non combatant. So as long as we present it in real world context I don't have a problem, but I DO think that it is a skill that needs to be worked on MUCH more than the 4 hours of range work they get in the CCW class.

I hope this clears up my stance on this.....

[Marswolf]

This all brings up another thought. The carry permit course is really a very basic minimum requirement to pack a handgun. Some people come in never having fired a gun. Some are old hands at it and really don't need firearms training at all. Except for one person, who came with her husband, that was true in my class.

It was taught at a gun club. Most students were shooters already. It's a word-of-mouth operation. As a result we probably spent more time on the legalities and less on the shooting part. That's what was needed.

A class that stressed the fundamentals of shooting would be of no interest to me. Waste of time and money. But I understand that a permit class has to be set up for the worst shooter who might walk in the door. Ideally, the classes would be set up for different levels of shooting experience. For someone like me, that would mean 10 minutes of qualifying and 7 hours 50 minutes of classroom instruction. Some people might need the four hours of shooting instruction.

Never can tell when someone might bring in one of these.

[DaveTN]

A class that stressed the fundamentals of shooting would be of no interest to me. Waste of time and money.

That is what I wanted to post but I figured the training peeps would jump all over me.

I would like to take a class that would fulfill the requirements for carry; but I don’t need any firearms training. I would like to take the class where the instructor is someone that is well versed in the letter of the law about carry laws, civil law, and the statutes governing the use of deadly force. 7 hours of law and then go crank off 50 rounds to qualify.

I guess the perfect carry class would be one where a highly qualified firearms instructors taught the firearms side and a representative from the State Attorney’s office (maybe a volunteer) taught the law side.

I’m not really interested in hearing from someone that has less criminal law experience than I have reading statutes and giving me their interpretations. And I certainly don’t want to pay for that.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Yeah, I have taught CCW classes with Ex SF guys and I have taught 21 year old women who had to borrow a gun because they did not yet own one of their own.

A VERY wide discrepency in experience, mindset and skill between these groups. BUT I have to structure the class so that each has a thorough understanding of what reality holds on the street. So I have to give extra attention to the newbies in shooting technique and still make sure everyone has a thorough understanding of legal issues and dynamics of interpersonal conflict issues. It really is a tightrope to walk for those of us that strive to give them MORE than their money's worth in class.

And remember I will be walking the streets at the same time as some of these same people I have trained. I not only have responsibility to the public at large to make sure these folks have a clue, but also to me and my family. So I definitely take this seriously! So even though the standards are minimal, I don't teach it directed at minimal competence. While that is acceptable to the state it is not acceptable to me. I have a duty to the students and to society to make sure these folks are better than MINIMALLY trained.

[Guest BigBoostDSM]

I filled out the required paperwork on Strawberry Plains. Went the Tuesday after Memorial Day around 2:00 pm. Was in and out in 20 minutes at the most. I was electronically fingerprinted at the UPS Store in Halls, that took all of five minutes. And BTW the fee you pay at the DOS covers the fingerprinting, there is no extra charge from UPS.

Also Bigboost, just to give you another option, I went to the Maryville DMV and got my HCP done, but I work in Alcoa. I got there at 8 when they opened and was back to work by 9. You just need to know the right times to go, and most will tell you if you call and ask the best time to come. But if you go that early, don’t pay them with 2 $100 dollar bills. You will get about $60 back in $1 dollar bills:D. They only have minimal cash that early in the morning. As mentioned above, what you pay the DMV also covers the finger printing, so don’t pay anyone before hand to do the finger printing. They will give you a number to call when you leave. You call the number and they will tell you the nearest place to you to get finger printed, but you will have to wait 24 hrs in order for them to put you into their system. I also went to the UPS store in halls and was in and out in a flash.

Thanks for the information. The DMV's in IL are hell holes, if you go there in the morning an hour before they open (open at 7) you'll be lucky to get out by noon. The closest full service DMV to me is the one on center park and since I need to get my DL changed I will be going there this week. For the HCP I'll go wherever I can as long as I can do the electronic fingerprinting.

This thread has turned out to have some pretty damn good information in it. Thanks again everyone.

[saintsfanbrian]

You can't do the fingerprinting at the same time. You have to do that a day or two afterwards. Look around for the best place to go. My local range does it.

[Guest BigBoostDSM]

You can't do the fingerprinting at the same time. You have to do that a day or two afterwards. Look around for the best place to go. My local range does it.

I've already decided where to take the course. Coal Creek Armory is the name of the range/shop. I stopped in there a few days ago to check the place out and everyone there was extremely helpful, so they get my business.

I wasn't aware you couldn't do it at the same time. The number you call to find a spot will give you a place that does the electronic printing, correct? I just want to make sure I do the prints that way so that I can get the permit as quickly as possible.