Someone forcibly breaks into your home in the middle of the night. What are you legally allowed to do?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

One of my students was involved in a shooting in his home. It was a 3 person home invasion in the middle of the day. Three guys armed with pistols force his kitchen door open and start into the house. My guy is coming up the hallway with gun in hand to investigate the noise when the door comes off its hinges and the three barge into the kitchen. He ends up killing the first guy and the other two bolt for the exit. They left the getaway car running on the street and threw the guns into the car and ran away. 

The police show up and take his statement, look at the evidence and hang around until around midnight when they all packed up and left. He did not spend one second in jail nor ever see the inside of a courtroom. 

When told about her son's demise the mother of the dead robber asked if he was robbing a business or a residence. They told her it was a residence to which she replied "I told that fool never to rob houses that it was safer to rob businesses because nobody is going to fight back"...... 

A big part of the reason my guy slept in his own bed that night was that he did not clam up and act like a film noir gangster saying "I ain't sayin' Nothin' till my mouthpiece gets here". That is what guilty people are counselled to do by attorneys who have experience defending guilty people. That is also how YOU initially get listed as the offender instead of the victim.  It is best to give a limited statement - something like "That guy right there tried to kill me with that gun right there and then say you will be willing to cooperate and answer further questions but would like to have an attorney present ". You need to make sure it is on record that YOU are the victim...not the other way around which is what often happens when YOU refuse to say anything at all. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Capbyrd]

6 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

One of my students was involved in a shooting in his home. It was a 3 person home invasion in the middle of the day. Three guys force his kitchen door open and start into the house. My guy is coming up the hallway with gun in hand to investigate the noise when the door comes off its hinges and the three barge into the kitchen. He ends up killing the first guy and the other two bolt for the exit. They left the getaway car running on the street and threw the guns into the car and ran away. 

The police show up and take his statement, look at the evidence and hang around until around midnight when they all packed up and left. He did not spend one second in jail nor ever see the inside of a courtroom. 

When told about her son's demise the mother of the dead robber asked if he was robbing a business or a residence. They told her it was a residence to which she replied "I told that fool never to rob houses that it was safer to rob businesses because nobody is going to fight back"...... 

A big part of the reason my guy slept in his own bed that night was that he did not clam up and act like a film noir gangster saying "I ain't sayin' Nothin' till my mouthpiece gets here". That is what guilty people are counselled to do by attorneys who have experience defending guilty people. That is also how YOU initially get listed as the offender instead of the victim.  It is best to give a limited statement - something like "That guy right there tried to kill me with that gun right there and then say you will be willing to cooperate and answer further questions but would like to have an attorney present ". You need to make sure it is on record that YOU are the victim...not the other way around which is what often happens when YOU refuse to say anything at all. 

I'd rather spend time in lockup than say something that they will try and use against me.   I don't know what the system is like out there but in Shelby County, I know that I will have a better chance keeping my mouth shut. 

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

That's why you give a "limited statement". There's a big difference between saying just enough to guide the investigation vs going into so much detail that you say conflicting things that get used against you vs saying nothing at all and letting them put you in jail while they try to figure out what really happened. The limited statement is the happy medium where you say just enough to assert you are the victim and point out pertinent evidence before it gets missed or disappears.

Larry Hickey spent the better part of 3 months in jail and 2 years of his life with his case hanging over his head before his 2nd trial ended in another hung jury largely because he initially didn't say anything and evidence that would've easily proven he was telling the truth about the encounter and his assailants were lying about where the confrontation took place was missed and lost. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke

[gary_boom]

Once you start talking it’s hard to shut up. 

[Quavodus]

1 hour ago, gary_boom said:

Once you start talking it’s hard to shut up. 

Especially when your excited. And I would imagine a person would be.

[chances R]

30 minutes ago, gary_boom said:

Once you start talking it’s hard to shut up. 

A man has to know his limitations....

[peejman]

15 hours ago, gary_boom said:

Once you start talking it’s hard to shut up. 

Then just say the same "limited statement" over and over..... "They broke the door down, they had guns, I shot this one and the other 2 ran. I called 911. "

Its important to be the first one to call it in. The first caller is the default victim. It can be difficult to reverse that notion once its in the officers' minds. 

 

A friend of mine was involved in a shooting fairly recently. A nut job thought my friend was seeing his girl. Threats had occurred.  Nutsy finally lost it, assaulted the girl and texted my friend saying he was coming to kill him and his family. My friend called 911 and was trying to bug out with his family when nutsy got there.  The shootout happened in the driveway.  The cops got there 2 minutes later. My friend never even got cuffed. 

[E4 No More]

18 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

That's why you give a "limited statement". There's a big difference between saying just enough to guide the investigation vs going into so much detail that you say conflicting things that get used against you vs saying nothing at all and letting them put you in jail while they try to figure out what really happened. The limited statement is the happy medium where you say just enough to assert you are the victim and point out pertinent evidence before it gets missed or disappears.

IMHO, this is on point.

I've never shot someone but I have come extremely close to doing so. I was working security in a bar district of Kansas City back in the mid-80's. There were 16 bars in a 3-block area, and the police didn't come down there between 7:00PM and 4:00AM unless they were called. Ostensibly, the security team was the law enforcement of those 3-blocks. As the sergeant running the security detail I was the lead for all incidents. One of my guards called that there was a fight breaking out in one of the parking lots, and when I got there I saw a white guy with a baseball bat trying to beat a black guy with a tire tool. It was clear to me that the black guy was just trying to protect his self. I drew my revolver and ordered them to put down their weapons to which the black guy immediately responded. The white guy thought that that was his opportunity to swing for the fences. I had learned a couple of things using revolvers back in the day. One thing relevant to this incident is that a suspect will pick-up on the cylinder turning in a revolver. I pulled the trigger to just before it broke while giving a final command to stop. Even through alcohol, the white guy apparently saw the cylinder turn, stopped, and dropped his bat.

I tell of this incident to make a point about the aftermath to give some flavor to the idea of a "limited statement." I became so angry at the white guy for putting me in the position of nearly taking his life that I couldn't even deal with him. All I wanted to do to him was to beat the crap out of him, so I had another guard handcuff him, record any statements that he made, and watch him. Adrenaline and anger consumed me, and it took a long time for me to level out again. I can't imagine what my state of mind would have been had I killed him. I imagine that I would have added the feeling of guilt over taking a life, and the feeling of fear of the repercussions in my life of doing so. Even though I did the right thing I questioned myself repeatedly, and I did so verbally to the guards that were present. For some reason I felt compelled to justify my actions that were already justified under Missouri laws. I imagine that had police officers been there I would have done the same, but I will point out that bystanders were there and many could probably hear what I was saying.

Granted, people react differently to a given event; however, there is no way that anyone knows how they'll react until it is real for them. Your "limited statement" applies to everyone; not just the police because the bystander(s) will be witnesses to not only what you did but also to what you say before, during, and after the shooting. You should have a plan as to what you will say and when. My plan to to STFU until the police get on scene. When they do get there my statement will be blunt as to identifying myself as the victim, and that I will cooperate with a complete statement once I have calmed down and have my lawyer present.

[AllGunsNoMoney]

Down in south GA about 15 years ago, I was leaving a friend's house around 3am.   When I stepped out into her garage to go to my car, I encountered a thief rummaging through her tools.  He saw me and quickly picked up a large screwdriver.  He held it up like a knife and gave me a menacing look, then he smirked and went back to stuffing his hoodie pockets.  I backed up into the house and grabbed a Remington 870 that was right next to the door leading to the garage.  (I sold her the shotgun about 2 weeks prior and had lectured her about keeping it by the door just moments before this happened, go figure.)

I stepped right back outside with the gun, issued the guy some pretty stern commands, and had him spread out in the driveway outside the garage.  My friend called the police and three cars showed up about five minutes later.  Soon as the guy saw the lights, he jumped up and bolted down the street.  The police caught him pretty quickly.  Apparently, he was a frequent flyer, they knew him by name.  I was actually surprised how polite they were with him.

One of the officers came up to me after they put him in the car and said, "he's saying you held him at gun point, did you?"  I said yes and tried to explain why.  It went poorly.  My friend and I were berated for at least 30 minutes, and I was threatened with arrest.  If it weren't for a more-understanding supervisor showing up to calm him down, I probably would've ended up in cuffs.

The thing is you never know who's going to answer the call.  Even when you're totally in the right, in a very-2nd-friendly area, the responding officer may strongly disagree with your actions, especially when it comes to something like holding a dirtbag at gun point.  If I could do it over again, I would've just ordered the guy to leave.

[Quavodus]

7 hours ago, peejman said:

Then just say the same "limited statement" over and over..... "They broke the door down, they had guns, I shot this one and the other 2 ran. I called 911. "

Its important to be the first one to call it in. The first caller is the default victim. It can be difficult to reverse that notion once its in the officers' minds. 

 

A friend of mine was involved in a shooting fairly recently. A nut job thought my friend was seeing his girl. Threats had occurred.  Nutsy finally lost it, assaulted the girl and texted my friend saying he was coming to kill him and his family. My friend called 911 and was trying to bug out with his family when nutsy got there.  The shootout happened in the driveway.  The cops got there 2 minutes later. My friend never even got cuffed. 

Did it get bad?  Sorry messed up post.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Quavodus

[Quavodus]

7 hours ago, peejman said:

Then just say the same "limited statement" over and over..... "They broke the door down, they had guns, I shot this one and the other 2 ran. I called 911. "

Its important to be the first one to call it in. The first caller is the default victim. It can be difficult to reverse that notion once its in the officers' minds. 

 

A friend of mine was involved in a shooting fairly recently. A nut job thought my friend was seeing his girl. Threats had occurred.  Nutsy finally lost it, assaulted the girl and texted my friend saying he was coming to kill him and his family. My friend called 911 and was trying to bug out with his family when nutsy got there.  The shootout happened in the driveway.  The cops got there 2 minutes later. My friend never even got cuffed. 

Sorry to hear this. I've never been in something really serious before.

[robin48]

This has been an enlightening thread

[E4 No More]

22 hours ago, chances R said:

A man has to know his limitations....

I bit hard to know when you've never gone through it.

[peejman]

1 hour ago, Quavodus said:

Did it get bad?  Sorry messed up post.

What do you mean by bad?

[chances R]

AllGuns.......to armchair your situation, your mistake was leaving to retrieve a  gun then confronting the  BG again.  You were in a safe area and should have stayed put and dialed 911.

Edited February 9, 2021 by chances R

[AllGunsNoMoney]

2 hours ago, chances R said:

AllGuns.......to armchair your situation, your mistake was leaving to retrieve a  gun then confronting the  BG again.  You were in a safe area and should have stayed put and dialed 911.

That's what the cop said, but he added, "you should've hid in a bathroom while dialing".  My younger self mistakenly thought that apprehending someone in the commission of a crime would be met with praise.  It was an interesting life lesson.

[Quavodus]

3 hours ago, peejman said:

What do you mean by bad?

Did anybody get hurt or worse?

[peejman]

12 hours ago, Quavodus said:

Did anybody get hurt or worse?

Nutsy didn't make it out of his truck alive. No one else was hurt. 

[m16ty]

I just finished a local "Citizens Sheriff's Academy" back in the fall. It was eye opening to see the other side of things, and one night was a Q&A session with the DA. At the end of the day, I think most officers just want to find the truth, and aren't looking to "hang" somebody. 

The DA Q&A was interesting. He more or less said that he's not looking for convictions, he's looking for justice, and makes it a point that nobody in his office keeps up with their conviction rate. He also said that many times in actually tries to help out the accused when warranted, but also said that once he is satisfied that their is enough evidence to convict and they go to court, he becomes their biggest adversary. 

All that being said, I have been questioned as a potential suspect in the past. I was 100% innocent and they came to that conclusion after the interview, but you could tell a bunch of the questions were leading or just to see how I would react. Being innocent, I had enough of their leading and insinuating questions and got up and walked out (I wasn't under arrest of being detained). Never heard anymore about it. I had went willingly to the interview to try to be a helpful witness, but I didn't appreciate the attitude and questions. The "interrogator" wasn't that good anyway, for a layperson like me to pick up on his technique. I got to where I answered certain questions the way I did just to antagonize him, you can do that when you know you are 100% innocent and you know they have zero evidence to the contrary. 

[m16ty]

On 2/9/2021 at 8:14 PM, AllGunsNoMoney said:

That's what the cop said, but he added, "you should've hid in a bathroom while dialing".  My younger self mistakenly thought that apprehending someone in the commission of a crime would be met with praise.  It was an interesting life lesson.

I agree that your mistake was confronting him again, but "hiding in the bathroom" would be a little too much. Once inside your home, you have to duty to retreat any further. I would say that if you would have just backed up and stayed inside the main living area on-guard until the police arrived, you'd be fine according to the law. 

[monkeylizard]

1 hour ago, m16ty said:

I agree that your mistake was confronting him again, but "hiding in the bathroom" would be a little too much. Once inside your home, you have to duty to retreat any further. I would say that if you would have just backed up and stayed inside the main living area on-guard until the police arrived, you'd be fine according to the law. 

There's no duty to retreat in Tennessee, period. Inside or outside a home.

[chances R]

17 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

There's no duty to retreat in Tennessee, period. Inside or outside a home.

and also there is no obligation to get into a confrontation/fight.  If one has a reasonable means of escape or avoidance then take it.

[Chucktshoes]

4 hours ago, chances R said:

and also there is no obligation to get into a confrontation/fight.  If one has a reasonable means of escape or avoidance then take it.

Yup. The only way to ever really win a fight is to avoid it. 

[monkeylizard]

17 hours ago, chances R said:

and also there is no obligation to get into a confrontation/fight.  If one has a reasonable means of escape or avoidance then take it.

Agreed. Avoidance is the best defense. I was replying to m16ty who said

Quote

Once inside your home, you have to duty to retreat any further.

There's no duty to retreat at all.

Edited February 17, 2021 by monkeylizard

[Quavodus]

Basically there's not much you can do.  Just let them take what they want and wish them a good day. The law pretty much protects the criminal.