Someone forcibly breaks into your home in the middle of the night. What are you legally allowed to do?

[m16ty]

On 1/29/2021 at 10:05 PM, monkeylizard said:

 

@Steaks this is the best advice you're going to get all week.

The law is pretty clear on when deadly force may be lawfully used and it requires "a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury"*. This is true in your home or anywhere else you might lawfully be. In your home you're presumed to have that reasonable belief, but the facts can refute that. A classic extreme example to illustrate the facts refuting the presumed belief is of a homeowner who holds an intruder at gunpoint, has them on their knees, ties them up, and shoots them in the back of the head. The homeowner is not in reasonable belief that there is imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury at the moment the trigger is pulled and the facts will prove that. This is not justifiable self-defense. This is murder. There are plenty more examples like Chip's naked napper, or a homeowner luring someone in so they can kill them, etc.

The short version is that away from home, you have to prove you had reasonable fear. At home, the prosecution has to prove you didn't.** This is the burden of proof Chip mentioned. Read the law for yourself here -Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-611 specifically paragraphs b, c, d, and e. Para. c lays out the presumption of belief.

*"Serious bodily injury" is defined in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-106  Look at (a)(36).

**Note that it's not strictly limited to your home. In TN it applies to a residence, business, dwelling or vehicle.

 

I never have liked the idea of holding somebody at gunpoint. A good friend of mine did it and got away with it when a couple of thugs robbed his store, but it just doesn’t seem to me like a good idea. You are just standing there holding a gun on them for however long it takes the cops to get there, seems like a long time for something to go bad. What if they try to run, what if they catch you looking away and try to rush you? Then when the police show up, they are walking into a “robbery in progress” and first thing they see is you with a gun in your hand. Not saying I wouldn’t do it, and it’s surely better than shooting them, but just seems a big opportunity for things to go from bad to worse.

[Snaveba]

8 minutes ago, m16ty said:

I never have liked the idea of holding somebody at gunpoint. A good friend of mine did it and got away with it when a couple of thugs robbed his store, but it just doesn’t seem to me like a good idea. You are just standing there holding a gun on them for however long it takes the cops to get there, seems like a long time for something to go bad. What if they try to run, what if they catch you looking away and try to rush you? Then when the police show up, they are walking into a “robbery in progress” and first thing they see is you with a gun in your hand. Not saying I wouldn’t do it, and it’s surely better than shooting them, but just seems a big opportunity for things to go from bad to worse.

What is there to stop the “thief” from just walking away, other than their ignorance of the law.  If they are no longer threatening your life, you can’t claim self defense if You shoot. And you can’t shoot someone to defend your personal property. 

Am I forgetting something?

Edited February 2, 2021 by Snaveba

[m16ty]

4 minutes ago, Snaveba said:

What is there to stop the “thief” from just walking away, other than their ignorance of the law.  If they are no longer threatening your life, you can’t claim self defense if You shoot. And you can’t shoot someone to defend your personal property. 

Am I forgetting something?

That’s kind of what I was getting at. Of course, at the time the robber probably doesn’t know you are a law abiding citizen, all the knows it somebody is pointing a gun at him and may shoot. That’s really they only thing that is keeping him from running off. Just seems like a lot of things could go wrong.

Probably your best bet is to pull your firearm, the robber backs down where you are no longer in fear for your life, and you just tell him to get out of there. I’ll admit, I’d probably have a hard time doing that, but I’ll also admit I have problems doing what is best sometimes, especially right after I thought somebody was trying to do me harm. 
 

It’s really easy to talk about what you should do on a Internet forum, and we should know what to do and try our best to follow those rules. It all gets fuzzy though when things are happening fast, and you get into that “fight or flight” mode. Sometimes we start fighting when we should be flighting.

[monkeylizard]

3 hours ago, Raoul said:

So has anyone here been the victim of a home invasion?

11 years ago my mother in law was home when two thieves kicked down her door, took her to a bedroom, put her on her knees and held a gun against her head. They kept asking where the safe was and she kept saying they didn't have one (which was true). She begged and pleaded for her life and eventually they took cash from her purse and left. It's unsolved to this day.

[monkeylizard]

.. double post

Edited February 2, 2021 by monkeylizard

[monkeylizard]

3 hours ago, Darrell said:

Be wary of posting something like that. A good [bad?] lawyer will use that post to show that you had premeditated intent. Remember that what you post on a forum like this one never goes away.

Yep. Anything you say (or post) can and WILL be used against you.

[Raoul]

I once had Three guys knock at my door. My then girlfriend now wife opened the door and they rushed in demanding some sort of remuneration.

[Wheelgunner]

Just now, Raoul said:

So has anyone here been the victim of a home invasion?

As others have said, important to remember that the reasonableness of your actions will be judged by people who aren't scared, who didn't just wake up to the sound of a stranger in the home, and who don't have loved ones in the next room.

@ Raoul - My wife and I were living in a low-end apartment 15 years ago and were both off work and asleep in the bedroom about 2 pm.  She shook me awake and whispered "There's someone in the house."  Maybe seven seconds later I had grabbed my 1911 from a drawer and heard heavy footsteps in the hall.  Someone rattled the locked bedroom doorknob from outside the room.  I sounded off with "Get out or I'll shoot," racked the slide, and aimed at the door.  Immediately I heard footsteps running away.  Stupidly I opened the bedroom door and followed the sound.  I made it out the front door in time to see a guy start his engine and drive away faster than I would have thought a pest control van can go.

Afterward I had a huge adrenaline dump, figured out what had happened, felt angry, felt frustrated... and was very relieved I hadn't fired through that bedroom door.   

About two days later the apt. leasing office admitted to me that they routinely gave keys to a local pest control company to send contractors inside units (with no prior notice to residents) and spray for bugs during the day "while residents are at work."  Suffice to say, we moved.

There's a lot about it that I could have done better.  But no one got hurt. 

[Capbyrd]

On 1/27/2021 at 11:35 AM, Steaks said:

is someone forcibly breaking into your home in the middle of the night not reason enough to threaten someone with a gun? 

 

 

I think Chuck and Chip and A.J. and a few others have done a good job covering the answer but I want to touch on the above question.  

We don't pull our guns to threaten people.  We pull our guns to stop the threat.   If the threat ends at the draw or appearance of a firearm, it was a good day.  If it takes being on target but the trigger never gets pulled, again, still a good day.   But if it takes an empty mag plus a few more rounds, that's the amount of force we must use.  Our goal should NEVER be to threaten anyone.  Our primary goal is always the same.  We use the actions and force necessary to STOP THE THREAT! 

[Quavodus]

I wouldn't personally shoot a guy that was stealing from me. Might beat the he- double hockey sticks out of him but, no shooting. 

[Possumslayer]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:36 PM, Darrell said:

Be wary of posting something like that. A good [bad?] lawyer will use that post to show that you had premeditated intent. Remember that what you post on a forum like this one never goes away.

And you quoted it so I couldn’t delete it. Brilliant.

[Possumslayer]

On 1/29/2021 at 9:29 AM, peejman said:

You realize this is a public forum, right?

You realize I don’t care?

[Capbyrd]

3 hours ago, Possumslayer said:

You realize I don’t care?

This attitude isn’t conducive to positive discourse.   Y’all dial it back a bit so that we don’t get another of sub forums closed out. 

[jgradyc]

On 2/1/2021 at 8:17 PM, Snaveba said:

What is there to stop the “thief” from just walking away, other than their ignorance of the law.  If they are no longer threatening your life, you can’t claim self defense if You shoot. And you can’t shoot someone to defend your personal property. 

Am I forgetting something?

I asked the same question at a legal self defense class in December.  My question was what if two guys kick down my door and come into my house in the middle of the night and I get the drop on them and tell them hands up and they just turn around and walk out... what can I do? The short answer was nothing. Get a description of the person and their vehicle and call the police. 

My takeaway from the course is 1) You do NOT want to shoot someone because their POS relatives will sue you for everything you own. And they can do this even if there are witnesses and video to support your case! 2) You'd better be darn sure your life is really on the line because after you shoot, your financial life will probably be on the line. Even if you win, the legal fees to defend yourself can be up a half million dollars. 

[lock n' load]

I thought that TN Castle Doctrine provides civil immunity if the shooting was deemed justified.  I know that wouldn't stop someone from trying though.

[Snaveba]

20 minutes ago, lock n' load said:

I thought that TN Castle Doctrine provides civil immunity if the shooting was deemed justified.  I know that wouldn't stop someone from trying though.

It does. But shooting somebody who is leaving your house and is no longer threatening your life is not justified.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Snaveba

[Snaveba]

My bad. Civil immunity from being sued forget what I said.

[Snaveba]

Well don’t forget it completely. you still can’t shoot some but who is leaving your house.

[Possumslayer]

19 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

This attitude isn’t conducive to positive discourse.   Y’all dial it back a bit so that we don’t get another of sub forums closed out. 

Blow me kid! I was being told how to think.

[Chucktshoes]

9 minutes ago, Possumslayer said:

Blow me kid! I was being told how to think.

You should have followed the advice given to dial it back a bit. It was good advice. 
 

Come back in a couple days when hopefully you’ve heeded that advice. 

[Quavodus]

Personally I wouldn't let lead fly unless I was being threatened. 

[lock n' load]

https://newschannel9.com/news/local/bradley-county-landfill-shooter-sentenced-to-17-years-in-prison

This article is not exactly about home intruders but more about the intent of the shooter. This guy was convicted of 2nd degree murder a few years ago. He had bragged to his coworkers that he would kill the guy if he spotted him. Sure enough, he ran into the guy and made good on his word. He even posed for a picture over the guy's body after the shooting from other sources I read. He is now serving a 17 year prison sentence. The guy he killed was unarmed but he made a "menacing glare" and the shooter "feared for his life". Lessons can be learned from this.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by lock n' load

[A.J. Holst]

I re-read my answer and sticking to it.

The February issue of the Rangemaster Newsletter speaks to the use of lethal force.

Can, may, should, must.

Tom also highlights through the inclusion of this content, as an instructor, I am not a legal expert and to be cautious and aware when having these conversations with students and others.

[monkeylizard]

On 2/6/2021 at 12:30 PM, lock n' load said:

I thought that TN Castle Doctrine provides civil immunity if the shooting was deemed justified.  I know that wouldn't stop someone from trying though.

I think you're conflating two different legal items.

There is no civil recourse against a shooter whose actions were adjudicated to be justified. This is NOT the same as the police not making an arrest or a DA choosing to not press charges. AIUI, in those cases, a shooter would still have to go before a judge to have the criminal case reviewed and judged to be self-defense to get the civil immunity. Likewise if the shooter is charged and tried and wins, they would have civil immunity. This is true regardless of where the self-defense shooting occurred and stand separate from Castle Doctrine.

Castle Doctrine is a separate item which aids the shooter in being adjudicated as justified self-defense. As mentioned above, it means the prosecution has to prove the shooter was NOT in reasonable fear of his/her life/serious bodily injury or the same for another person if the self-defense shooting occurred in the shooters home, vehicle, dwelling, or place of business. Away from those places the shooter has to prove they were in fact in fear of imminent death/serious bodily injury

[chances R]

Essentially, I believe the shooter will always have to have an argument of or 'Burden of Production' that the shooting was in self defense.  The judge does not have to accept that argument based of the amount of supporting evidence.  In home shootings there is a much more favorable standing or lower bar to reach, but still must be made.  Prosecuters try to avoid cases where there is strong evidence they will lose.  The standard of imminent death or SBI will still apply in or out of your abode.

The point on civil immunity does require the adjudication by the judge to be in play in TN.