16 December 2020 - ATF Making More Moves Against Pistol Braces

[TGO David]

*** I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.  This is not legal advice.  Seek reputable legal counsel.  ***

I think it is important to ask yourself why the ATF would be willing to offer you the ability to register your pistol under the NFA as a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR), at no cost to you, when they normally charge registrants $200 per item. 

On the surface one can assume that they are doing this to throw gun owners a bone since pistol braces have been legal to own and use forever, up until whatever they have in mind for changes to current firearms law.  One can assume good intentions and assume that the ATF feels slightly guilty about the fact that they have enabled... nay, encouraged consumers to buy pistol braces either to address their own physical limitations or for other reasons.

I tend not to assume the good intentions of bureaucrats, bureaucracies or governments simply because they have never proven themselves to be trustworthy, benevolent, or good stewards of the money and power imbued to them.  I mean... there is literally history behind this skepticism.  A lot of history, documented in countless books and tomes, showing how the government can, will, and has destroyed, maimed, deprived, withheld from, and killed the citizens who put said-government in power.

 

So let's assume that something else is motivating this apparent act of generosity.  What are some possible negatives to registering your pistol as a Short Barrel Rifle under the NFA?

 

1. Your rifle becomes registered.  You may say, "Well they already know that I've bought this gun, or other guns, anyway - so I am already on their list."   But, are you?  The ATF is not supposed to have copies of the Form 4473 that you filled out at the gun shop unless that gun shop has gone out of business and, per law, surrendered their 4473s to the ATF to be stored in a warehouse.  But how much of that do you really trust?

Consider as well that the government has proven repeatedly that it can back-track a firearm to the original individual who purchased it, but working forward from the manufacturer who recorded the serial number, to the distributor who wholesaled it, to the shop they sold it to, to the person who bought it from the shop.  So, yes, a paper trail exists and it isn't hard for the government to use it. 

Also, bear in mind that this only covers the first purchaser of a firearm.  Which brings me to my second point.

 

2. It now becomes illegal to transfer your rifle to anyone else in a private sale unless they buy a Tax Stamp ($200) and pass a background check, get fingerprinted or file as a trust, corporation or other legal entity, wait a year or so, and then transfer the firearm to themselves legally.   The secondary market appeals to people who value their privacy and their inherent, creator-given right to life and and a means to defend it.  Secondary sales aren't the domain of criminals.

Goodbye, legal private party sales of your private property without going through an FFL and all of the other rigmarole.

It also becomes illegal for anyone other than yourself to be in possession of the firearm without you present, unless the firearm is owned by a Trust (or corporation or other legal entity) of which they are a trustee or officer.  For NFA items registered solely to an individual, this gets tricky if you... say... are married and leave the NFA item behind while you travel for work, or commute to work, or go get groceries, or end up in the hospital, etc. and your spouse, children or other family have what the ATF would consider to be reasonably easy access to that item in your absence.  If they know the combination of the gun safe, or have access to the combination or key, or wherever you've stashed it... they could be guilty of a crime also and be sentenced to prison for it.  Along with you.

 

3, It now becomes subject to more stringent local laws.  Some states don't allow you to possess an NFA item within their confines.  You can't travel to or through some states, easily, with an NFA item.  This alone is one reason why braces on AR pistols have become popular.  People like being able to travel without having to show ze papers.

 

4. It becomes difficult to enable inheritance of your pistol if they are registered as an NFA item.  Trusts make this slightly easier, but many have term limits, or limits on the number of times trustees can be added, or who can add trustees, etc.  Without being on a trust, your spouse, partner, children, other family have to apply for new tax stamps and pass background checks for anything that you leave to them and buy the $200 tax stamp.

Some states and some trusts are designed to only allow them to endure for a certain number of years.  At the end of their term, whoever the trustees are have to... you guessed it... pass background checks, buy tax stamps, etc. regardless of whether the NFA items go to them or if they are going back into a NEW trust.  It's the most ridiculous form of taxation imaginable.

 

5, Registration facilitates confiscation.  End of story.  If they can track it to you, they can make you forfeit it or tell them who you sold/transferred it to and then go make them forfeit it.  Forfeiture includes destruction, for the sake of brevity.  Regardless, they don't call them paper trails for nothing.

 

 

I am sure I am forgetting some other negatives.  I'll add them as I think of them or as others point them out.

 

[Handsome Rob]

So, I have a couple of genuine concerns here. I have a braced pistol, built on an 80% lower. As a non- citizen I cannot apply for, pay the tax on or legally own any NFA items. Again, i'm legally fine to buy, sell & own 'legal firearms' but NFA items, supressors etc are a BIG no-no.

Should I just cut my losses & part the thing out ahead of this? 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Handsome Rob

[Chucktshoes]

2 minutes ago, Handsome Rob said:

So, I have a couple of genuine concerns here. I have a braced pistol, built on an 80% lower. Add a non- citizen I cannot apply for, pay the tax on or legally own any NFA items. Again, i'm legally fine to buy, sell & own 'legal firearms' but NFA items, supressors etc are a BIG no-no.

Should I just cut my losses & part the thing out ahead of this? 

Considering the unique nature of your situation, I would say yes. The risk versus reward equation is just way out of whack for you.

[Chucktshoes]

John Patton spoke with Alex Bosco from SB Tactical tonight. 
 

 

[Chucktshoes]

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Chucktshoes

[Randall53]

14 hours ago, RED333 said:

Before long it will be "You dont need 10 bullets to kill a deer" as from the commie NY state governor. Then you wont need 6, no wait 3 bullets. Then only single shot firearms. Reload powder will be allowed but only a 1/4 pound on hand at a time, 10 primers, no lead at all.

But at least Trump is out of office, RIGHT???

That’s how it went in Australia I think and that’s the model the democrats have voiced many times as the one they want here. That will get them all registered, then they’ll want them all like Feinstein said several years ago. Something along the line of this: “If I could, I’d take them all. Mr. and Mrs America turn them in. Turn them all in....”

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Randall53

[Erik88]

58 minutes ago, Handsome Rob said:

So, I have a couple of genuine concerns here. I have a braced pistol, built on an 80% lower. As a non- citizen I cannot apply for, pay the tax on or legally own any NFA items. Again, i'm legally fine to buy, sell & own 'legal firearms' but NFA items, supressors etc are a BIG no-no.

Should I just cut my losses & part the thing out ahead of this? 

I don't have any advice but I hate the fact you haven't been made a citizen yet. You are exactly the type of person we would all like to welcome.  I really hope that it happens for you some day. 

[Chucktshoes]

They’re making moves against more than just braces.

It is being reported that they raided Diversified Machine, a maker of parts for form one suppressor builds. 
 

https://www.facebook.com/200640669947740/posts/3880980461913724/?d=n

Edited December 18, 2020 by Chucktshoes

[Handsome Rob]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

Considering the unique nature of your situation, I would say yes. The risk versus reward equation is just way out of whack for you.

 

Well......I guess it beats being deported. I got to thinking & my main concern wasn't actually me, but what if i'm hunting out west & my home gets broken into while i'm away. All of a sudden the police are looking around, find it & suddenly The Wife is a federal criminal & frankly, I don't think I could handle that amount of ear ache! 

[Chucktshoes]

19 minutes ago, Handsome Rob said:

 

Well......I guess it beats being deported. I got to thinking & my main concern wasn't actually me, but what if i'm hunting out west & my home gets broken into while i'm away. All of a sudden the police are looking around, find it & suddenly The Wife is a federal criminal & frankly, I don't think I could handle that amount of ear ache! 

I wouldn’t think that you’d need to do anything too drastic just yet, but maybe stripping anything off of it that might meet the secondary criteria would probably be wise just to be cautious. Things like secondary grips, LPVO, etceteta. Make it as demonstrably designed to be fired with one hand as possible. 

[Handsome Rob]

22 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I wouldn’t think that you’d need to do anything too drastic just yet, but maybe stripping anything off of it that might meet the secondary criteria would probably be wise just to be cautious. Things like secondary grips, LPVO, etceteta. Make it as demonstrably designed to be fired with one hand as possible. 

God bless panic buying..... I've already sold it as 'parts' Thankfully, i haven't lost anything, other pride of ownership. Small price to pay for the security, but the shame of feeling forced to kowtow to a law & regime I disagree with in its entirety for the sake of that security, stings very hard. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Handsome Rob

[JunkiCosmonaut]

1 hour ago, Handsome Rob said:

God bless panic buying..... I've already sold it as 'parts' Thankfully, i haven't lost anything, other pride of ownership. Small price to pay for the security, but the shame of feeling forced to kowtow to a law & regime I disagree with in its entirety for the sake of that security, stings very hard. 

I'm sorry to hear about that. Freind of my uncles had been caught with a homemade machine gun (i think he used an m3 parts kit) back in the 80s. All he said was he would have given anything to just make it disappear. Cost him a lot of money to not be sent away for 10 years. I mean a looooot. The ATF sucks and they make it their personal mission to suck and make life suck for you if they get their hands on you. I deeeeeespise the ATFyou but no shame in picking your battles. Theres better hills to die on. Not MANY. But some.

[DaveTN]

11 hours ago, Handsome Rob said:

So, I have a couple of genuine concerns here. I have a braced pistol, built on an 80% lower. As a non- citizen I cannot apply for, pay the tax on or legally own any NFA items. Again, i'm legally fine to buy, sell & own 'legal firearms' but NFA items, supressors etc are a BIG no-no.

Should I just cut my losses & part the thing out ahead of this? 

 

9 hours ago, Handsome Rob said:

 

Well......I guess it beats being deported. I got to thinking & my main concern wasn't actually me, but what if i'm hunting out west & my home gets broken into while i'm away. All of a sudden the police are looking around, find it & suddenly The Wife is a federal criminal & frankly, I don't think I could handle that amount of ear ache! 

I’ll second that you should probably get rid of it due to your situation. The chances of it being an issue for you are slim.  But I refuse to play games with BATF and I don’t have the citizenship issue; they don’t play fair and what’s good today may or may not be tomorrow.

It appears to me Regina Lombardo is trying to send a clear message to Joe that she wants to keep her job and will do whatever it takes.

[Grayfox54]

I got this from Guns America this morning.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/atf-guidance-letter-for-stabilizing-braces-says-each-firearm-considered-on-case-by-case-basis/

ATF Guidance Letter for Stabilizing Braces Says Each Firearm Considered on ‘Case by Case Basis’

The way I read this is that it'll be up to the individual agent/office to decide if the firearm is legal or not. That's not good at all. But they also say that guns bought "in good faith" should be ok. 

I'm guessing my 9mm Extar EP9 will be ok, but I'm not counting on anything. BATF has gone completely rogue.  They want to crush the 2nd Amendment and with Biden coming in, looks like they'll get their chance. 

[DaveTN]

28 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

I got this from Guns America this morning. [url=] https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/atf-guidance-letter-for-stabilizing-braces-says-each-firearm-considered-on-case-by-case-basis/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20201218_FridayDigest_309&utm_campaign=/digest/atf-guidance-letter-for-stabilizing-braces-says-each-firearm-considered-on-case-by-case-basis/] ATF Guidance Letter for Stabilizing Braces Says Each Firearm Considered on ‘Case by Case Basis’[/url]

The way I read this is that it'll be up to the individual agent/office to decide if the firearm is legal or not. That's not good at all. But they also say that guns bought "in good faith" should be ok. 

I'm guessing my 9mm Extar EP9 will be ok, but I'm not counting on anything. BATF has gone completely rogue.  They want to crush the 2nd Amendment and with Biden coming in, looks like they'll get their chance. 

First let me say that I’ve only had one dealing personally with the BATF, and they were professional and helpful when the TBI was not.

However, not only will it be up to the individual, but they clearly state on their website that their little BS “letters” do not have the weight of law. If a cop decides to arrest you for having an AR pistol with a brace, and the DA decides to pursue it, there is nothing to stop a Judge or jury from calling it a “stock” and sending you to prison.

The worst case of that I ever saw was the bump stock fiasco. Some azz hat sitting behind a desk decided that it didn’t technically violate the law. Maybe not, but it clearly violated the intent of the law. And a judge could rule that way. A sick individual knocked out the windows of a high rise hotel and showed the world that a bump stock did in fact turn a semi-auto rifle into a machine gun.

After that, some poor sap was going to go to prison on federal gun charges because he was unlucky enough to have a bump stock in his vehicle on a traffic stop.  

Don’t get be wrong; I think everyone should be able to own a machine gun. But if some BATF hack is going to make the decision that was made, it needs to have the weight of law. And it didn’t. That’s crazy.

I haven’t followed the “brace” drama lately. But as far as I can tell there isn’t anything to keep someone from going to prison over it. And that’s crazy also.

[dralarms]

Is this all based on the brace?

[TGO David]

3 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

I got this from Guns America this morning.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/atf-guidance-letter-for-stabilizing-braces-says-each-firearm-considered-on-case-by-case-basis/

ATF Guidance Letter for Stabilizing Braces Says Each Firearm Considered on ‘Case by Case Basis’

The way I read this is that it'll be up to the individual agent/office to decide if the firearm is legal or not. That's not good at all. But they also say that guns bought "in good faith" should be ok. 

I'm guessing my 9mm Extar EP9 will be ok, but I'm not counting on anything. BATF has gone completely rogue.  They want to crush the 2nd Amendment and with Biden coming in, looks like they'll get their chance. 

We absolutely cannot be satisfied with this garbage.  Arbitrary "on the field" decisions predicated upon an individual agent's or office's understanding of a directive and opinions on a matter, are DANGEROUS and legally unsound.

Bear in mind that a person who buys a bare lower receiver, or one with a buffer tube but no stock or brace, for an AR-15 should, generally speaking, be the owner of a "firearm" without classification for pistol or rifle.   It should be legal for that person to build either a rifle or a pistol, so long as the remainder of the components used align with the current [and absurd] ATF regulations.

If that person chooses to build a pistol and put a brace on it, that should be viewed as having been done in good faith.  But, will it?

This whole thing is utter trash.  The current head of the BATFE is an anti-gun tyrant and should be unemployed.  The BATFE should be dismantled and its duties assigned done away with or assigned to more appropriate agencies with better oversight and governance.

 

[Daniel]

So I have to admit that I stopped keeping up with gun regulations right after the pistol braces were deemed ok by ATF. They always seemed sketchy to me legally speaking because no one used them as an arm brace but instead shouldered them. My neighbor also told me about the gun “cleaning traps” or something that was a suppressor in everything but name... is this a thing? How has that passed when the barrel shroud on the GSG-9 was deemed NFA?

Edited December 18, 2020 by Daniel

[Chucktshoes]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

So I have to admit that I stopped keeping up with gun regulations right after the pistol braces were deemed ok by ATF. They always seemed sketchy to me legally speaking because no one used them as an arm brace but instead shouldered them. My neighbor also told me about the gun “cleaning traps” or something that was a suppressor in everything but name... is this a thing? How has that passed when the barrel shroud on the GSG-9 was deemed NFA?

Yes. That’s a thing. The ATF raided one of those companies as well. They’re going after everything that folks have been doing to walk the lines of legality over the last decade. 

[Randall53]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:46 AM, Grayfox54 said:

Honestly, I don't know. But maybe if he cuts the head(s) off this snake, Biden may not choose to put them back. Then again, Biden may put worse people in charge. But if nothing else, Trump can send a message loud and clear that the American people are tired of this crap. 

Biden’s dementia riddled brain don’t care what gun owners think. But then no Democrat mind in power does. They hate two things vehemently. Guns and the Bible. Obama showed us that in his “they cling to their guns and Bible “ rant and the Democrats show us in their actions and silence anytime Christian are attacked, or not allowed to go to church. But Biden? The man has dementia like I said. 30 years ago he would not have been allowed to run. Now he’s gonna have the famous “Nuclear Codes”? Amazing. Besides, Soros is the Democrat demigod and runs the show. After stealing Georgia senate races, the gun control hammer is going to fall. And like Schumer said, “then we’re going to fundamentally change America.”  The words Fundamental Change should scare the hell out of every American. Strangely, I don’t see that happening. Maybe they just don’t realize what it means, or just don’t care. Like I said. Strange, very strange.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Randall53

[hipower]

16 minutes ago, Randall53 said:

Biden’s dementia riddled brain don’t care what gun owners think. But then no Democrat mind in power does. They hate two things vehemently. Guns and the Bible. Obama showed us that in his “they cling to their guns and Bible “ rant and the Democrats show us in their actions and silence anytime Christian are attacked, or not allowed to go to church. But Biden? The man has dementia like I said. 30 years ago he would not have been allowed to run. Now he’s gonna have the famous “Nuclear Codes”? Amazing. Besides, Soros is the Democrat demigod and runs the show. After stealing Georgia senate races, the gun control hammer is going to fall. And like Schumer said, “then we’re going to fundamentally change America.”  The words Fundamental Change should scare the hell out of every American. Strangely, I don’t see that happening. Maybe they just don’t realize what it means, or just don’t care. Like I said. Strange, very strange.

VERY, VERY sadly I have to agree with what you said. I don't want to, but the average dem, young and old, seems only to parrot what they hear from their "gods."

These people are hearing exactly what's being told to them...they just can't seem to understand what it means. What will happen to them and to the nation as whole.

I'm very much a simpleton in the education and life experience areas, but I can see and hear what is plainly said to the nation. It does not foretell of wine and roses for us. In fact, more likely bread and water for the non-political elites and the un-connected.

[Randall53]

6 minutes ago, hipower said:

VERY, VERY sadly I have to agree with what you said. I don't want to, but the average dem, young and old, seems only to parrot what they hear from their "gods."

These people are hearing exactly what's being told to them...they just can't seem to understand what it means. What will happen to them and to the nation as whole.

I'm very much a simpleton in the education and life experience areas, but I can see and hear what is plainly said to the nation. It does not foretell of wine and roses for us. In fact, more likely bread and water for the non-political elites and the un-connected.

They are not hiding their intentions. That’s what so strange to me. It kinda makes me think of that movie Left Behind. It’s like these people aren’t hearing what I’m hearing.....

[AuEagle]

Gun grab sparks 'Defund ATF' movement (washingtonexaminer.com)

[Randall53]

25 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

Gun grab sparks 'Defund ATF' movement (washingtonexaminer.com)

They will be the front line weapon to disarming America. 

[Erik88]

47 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

Gun grab sparks 'Defund ATF' movement (washingtonexaminer.com)

I just want to point out that when others talked about defunding the police they were ridiculed but once it hits an issue conservatives care about it's a good idea. 

Guess who will enforce new gun laws.

These people:

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Erik88