Breaking! ATF Has Just Raided Polymer80 : Records Seized!

[Magiccarpetrides]

Replying to Chuck:

The 80% lowers were a thing but not as prolific because they did require some actual skill and work.  The polymer 80 eliminates all that so that anyone with a basic drill can complete a handgun.  I do think that while everyone is entitled to own firearms (including machine guns, suppressors, etc) they should have to do the basic background check.  Criminals will always find a way but that doesn’t mean we should make it easier.  I honestly think the whole 80% thing is just a way to bypass a background check (which requires the firearm to have a serial number) therefore I’m all for them being reclassified.  Again this is all just a friendly debate not like any of us is gonna actually affect what happens.  

Edited December 11, 2020 by Magiccarpetrides

[Magiccarpetrides]

14 minutes ago, The Big Guy said:

 

Rights comes from god not government. If you have to get a permit i.e. drivers license you are getting permission to perform an activity that would otherwise be illegal. Permits may be revoked, rights may not be revoked. Your rights may be trampled upon, and that's the topic here. 

Which god?

[Omega]

8 minutes ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

Which god?

Is there another??

[JunkiCosmonaut]

I'll apologize to all, for what I said. Im an A$$hole and I know it and its not fair to sling anything at anyone and its not right.  Ill also say this, when someone claims your peaceful activity should be illegal you should be offended. They're saying although you harm no one you should be forced into a cage for what you enjoy doing. Don't call yourself a libertarian if thats the way you think. You're not a libertarian. Many a right has gone down the drain because Republicans will actively support "common sense" restrictions and that leads to openings for further legislation to chip away at your rights. Also, i don't beleive you should have to compromise in a situation where your actions and or the ownership of property is peaceful and does not directly result in harm to others. Murder is illegal, assualt is illegal. Do we need to go further? Do we need to ban hammers and ice picks? Where is the line? Further why is it at that exact spot? Why stop at hommade firearms? 

[DWARREN123]

BATFE has too much leeway. The need to be disbanded and kicked in the guy parts!

[Chucktshoes]

30 minutes ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

Replying to Chuck:

The 80% lowers were a thing but not as prolific because they did require some actual skill and work.  The polymer 80 eliminates all that so that anyone with a basic drill can complete a handgun.  I do think that while everyone is entitled to own firearms (including machine guns, suppressors, etc) they should have to do the basic background check.  Criminals will always find a way but that doesn’t mean we should make it easier.  I honestly think the whole 80% thing is just a way to bypass a background check (which requires the firearm to have a serial number) therefore I’m all for them being reclassified.  Again this is all just a friendly debate not like any of us is gonna actually affect what happens.  

 

I’m not trying to be a jerk here, but I am trying to ensure I am not misunderstanding. It appears that you do support universal background checks, but what about the other questions I asked. 
 

Do you support the outlawing of private manufacture of firearms?

Do you support the outlawing of private party sales?

Do you support universal background checks? Yes(?)

Do you support universal firearms registration?

 

All of these questions are directly related to Polymer 80’s business model. They are also very much related to the 2A. So I ask them to be able to fully understand your position in order to counter what it actually is, and not what I have built it to be in my head. 
 

In the interest of transparency and fairness, my answer is an emphatic no to all 4 questions I asked. I believe that all gun laws are an infringement on a God-given right enumerated (not granted) in the 2A. I also believe that “arms” in the text extends to much more than simple small arms. Prior to 1934 private parties could, and did, own all types of arms with no restrictions. Remember through much of our first century and half of existence we made use of privateers along with their (and others) privately owned artillery on sea and land. 

[ACfixer]

9 hours ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

I honestly have no problem with this.  When they find out how many convicted felons and gangbangers bought these hopefully this will be the final nail in this charade.

Well I am too new around here to post a spirited objection, so I will just ask you how you think they will figure out how many felons and gangbangers purchased a non serialized item.

Shall not be infringed.

 

[Defender]

I don’t own any 80% stuff and have no plans to, but to mem the attraction is having unregistered guns in case guns are ever confiscated by the Gov’t in some ban situation.   I know, I know, not likely, which is one reason I don’t have one, couple with the fact I’d probably screw up the completion, lol.

[Omega]

I have plenty of unregistered weapons, but I did want to get an 80% AR lower just to see if I could do it.  I do not have the skill to make one from a 0%, otherwise I would want to do that.  For me, it is not about having a registered or unregistered weapon, it's just because I can if I choose to.   The only thing that stopped me, so far, is that weapons were available much cheaper than a DIY.  

[Grayfox54]

"Ghost Gun" is the new anti-gunner's buzz word. Expect a lot of this in the near future. 

[Smith]

Well I may or may not have two and I'm far from a felon or gangbanger. I like them because it's a Glock that you can fix all the things you don't like about Glock "perfection" while retaining the best parts. 

I'd be concerned that the BATF would use Polymer80's records to find "illegal" weapons owners and cause legitimate owners legal jearpordy. All because they can. To me this is far more a concern and reality than keeping true criminals from using a Polymer80 product.

I too am surprised by magic's position but also know he's far from an unreasonable man. I assume there's context missing. Either way, I'd probably sell him a "ghost" gun. If I had one!

[TGO David]

Just so you have a north star for what I am about to say, if you take the Constitution and Bill of Rights at face value, all gun laws are infringements upon your rights.  So let's build from there.

 

6 hours ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

Well it only took 1 shooting to eliminate bumpstocks...compared to the amount that were out in the world I would say that ratio was pretty skewed.  I don't have any hard numbers on Polymer 80 guns but I know of plenty people here and on the interwebs that complete them and don't put a serial number on them so???

It is 100% legal to build a firearm from either scratch or from an 80% complete component which would otherwise be serialized for your own use, not for resale, and not serialize it.   What bootlicking logic are you abiding by that would cause you to serialize a thing that you legally built for yourself when serializing it isn't required?

 

Quote

Oh wow pulling out all the snark.  Your an intelligent man please do tell who guns that are easily finished by anyone with basic tools and consisting of no serial number yet cost the same as a firearm with a serial number are marketed for?  

There are many other firearms that you can build from an 80% kit.  Muskets, cap and ball pistols, AR pattern rifles, and a multitude of modern striker fired 80% polymer pistols based upon the Glock Gen 3 design.  Polymer 80 was the first to bring the latter to market and it has inspired a cottage industry.  Further, the BATFE currently - apparently - doesn't even have a problem with that, per se, since their grievance with P80 seems to be with a particular package and not with the 80% receiver itself.

Beyond that, anyone with basic tools can build a gun.  It may not be sexy and may not be polymer, but it's easily done and probably far more often than you or I will ever have any way to ascertain the frequency of.  Because it's legal and private and legal to be private and no one has to tell a soul about it, account for it, serialize it, register it, or report it.  Those are the true "ghost guns" because there is no paper trail.  There are no invoices, no shipping receipts, no bills of lading.  They.  Don't.  Exist.  And that is ####ing awesome.

 

I really wonder about people like you who seem to have a problem with firearms ownership if it's not tracked or restricted.  Do you have similar complaints about home-brewing of beer?  It feels like fair-weather support of the Second Amendment to me, but I guess maybe I am just more tired of infringement than you are.

 

Since you are this opposed to 80% firearms, I presume we won't see any for sale at premium prices a few weeks from now when supply is short and demand is high.

[TGO David]

Here's more happy news for you all:  BATFE is now visiting consumers who purchased the Polymer 80 "Buy, Build, Shoot" kits and demanding forfeiture and threatening that they will return with a warrant and raid the consumer's home.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/

 

This #### is 100% unacceptable.  BATFE is clearly getting ballsy now that they think a new captain will be at the wheel of the ship in a few weeks.  Buckle up, folks.  It's going to be ugly if Harris and her rickety old Trojan Horse get into office.

 

[JunkiCosmonaut]

10 hours ago, ReeferMac said:

3D printers have pretty much made these moot. I'd been in the market for one if I could pay cash and not ship it. Never found one.

Its getting kinda spicy on that front. I suspect that any new stepping will be on that as well. 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by JunkiCosmonaut

[Dirtshooter]

2 hours ago, Defender said:

in case guns are ever confiscated by the Gov’t in some ban situation.

I really don't see how they could accomplish this feat. The cops can barely keep peace in the streets as it is and I feel very sure that keeping the peace is going to get worse really quick with all this corruption in our election. These are perilous times we are living in folks. Be safe out there!! And have a Merry Christmas. God is still in control, regardless who may or may not be in control in Washington, D.C. !!!

[TGO David]

17 minutes ago, Dirtshooter said:

I really don't see how they could accomplish this feat. The cops can barely keep peace in the streets as it is and I feel very sure that keeping the peace is going to get worse really quick with all this corruption in our election. These are perilous times we are living in folks. Be safe out there!! And have a Merry Christmas. God is still in control, regardless who may or may not be in control in Washington, D.C. !!!

I did an opinion piece on this last year.  It sucks BAD that it feels like I was clairvoyant in respect to this, but the Cliffs Notes go like this:
 

• Constrict the supply of ammunition through EPA regulations and other "end runs" that make it difficult or impossible to feed the gun.
   
• Declare "undesirable" categories of weapons as NFA devices and force people to apply for an NFA stamp and register them.  (Step 1)
   
• Declare that these NFA items are non-transferrable beyond the current owner, whether that be an individual or a trust.  (Step 2)
   
• Within two generations, tops, all of the undesirable guns will either be forfeited or illegal contraband... that you can't feed or allow to be seen in public.

 

We are currently in the first bullet point.  The second bullet point is coming.

 

[The Legion]

https://thelibertyloft.com/popular-ghost-gun-company-polymer80-raided-by-federal-agents/

[DaveTN]

I doubt very much that gang bangers, or those that don’t want paperwork, are buying 80% plastic lowers. Why would they when they can just buy a real lower, or a complete firearm? Or just steal them? I suspect people that buy plastic guns are just tinkerers that need something to keep busy with.

[ReeferMac]

7 hours ago, JunkiCosmonaut said:

Its getting kinda spicy on that front. I suspect that any new stepping will be on that as well.

 

I hear you, and agree that Fed/Gov is likely to target them with legislation, however that gets to the point of my comment.

The genie is out of the bottle. Plans/files are freely and widely available on the internet. "You can't stop the signal". Legislate all you want... irrelevant. If I wanted to print my own unregistered M-4 and auto sear, I only need to buy a printer and material available from Amazon dot com and other fine retailers.

 

[DaveTN]

11 minutes ago, ReeferMac said:

The genie is out of the bottle. Plans/files are freely and widely available on the internet. "You can't stop the signal". Legislate all you want... irrelevant. If I wanted to print my own unregistered M-4 and auto sear, I only need to buy a printer and material available from Amazon dot com and other fine retailers.

 

As machinist’s we have had the ability to convert semi’s to full for many years. Or machine complete lowers for others. When I’ve been asked why I don’t do it, the reply is simple…Prison. Legislation is absolutely relevant. Whether you agree with it or whether you don’t; most folks won’t risk prison time over it.

[FUJIMO]

11 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

As machinist’s we have had the ability to convert semi’s to full for many years. Or machine complete lowers for others. When I’ve been asked why I don’t do it, the reply is simple…Prison. Legislation is absolutely relevant. Whether you agree with it or whether you don’t; most folks won’t risk prison time over it.

I've looked at it from the opposite direction for years now. Yesterday's legal is today's illegal and poof ! you're a felon

[ReeferMac]

14 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

As machinist’s we have had the ability to convert semi’s to full for many years. Or machine complete lowers for others. When I’ve been asked why I don’t do it, the reply is simple…Prison. Legislation is absolutely relevant. Whether you agree with it or whether you don’t; most folks won’t risk prison time over it.

Sure, machinists aren't the average Joe, however. Knowledge and access to specialized machinery is required.

You, me, or anyone with a credit card can purchase 3D printers and materials retail, download files for free off the internet, and POOF, parts.

I concur that prison time acts as a deterrent to some folks, but not all. The point I was trying to make is knocking off Polymer80 corp. isn't going to keep unregistered firearms from peoples use. The technology to do so is ubiquitous today. Can't regulate it out of existence.

[DaveTN]

24 minutes ago, FUJIMO said:

I've looked at it from the opposite direction for years now. Yesterday's legal is today's illegal and poof ! you're a felon

I blame the BATF for that. They write these BS letters that make people think they are legal; then post on their website that they don’t mean crap and your local DA and courts aren’t bound by them.

[FUJIMO]

1 minute ago, DaveTN said:

I blame the BATF for that. They write these BS letters that make people think they are legal; then post on their website that they don’t mean crap and your local DA and courts aren’t bound by them.

BATF is just the label they run under. I blame SEVERE gvt overreach since 9/11 and even before then if you want to dig deeper. 

I'm convinced they approve/sign off on some of these "devices" long enough for people to fill their homes with them then deem them illegal just so they already have something to charge you with should they ever need to come raid your azz. 

No different than when vaping was a safe alternative to smoking now vaping is the new problem lol. GD idiots

[ReeferMac]

Bradbury covered the technique beautifully in Fahrenheit 451. Are we at War with EastAsia? Who cares, time for the 2 minutes hate everyone!

What scares me (not to segue), but if your eyes are open and you were exposed to this literature in HS, it is literally happening before your eyes. We were warned. Exactly as laid out in Huxleys works, too.