Help with surplus/pulldown powder

[Luke E.]

 Been a long while since I’ve posted anything on here!

 Anyhow, years ago I bought a jug of powder from David (not sure if he’s still around?) and it’s labeled 7.62x54r. When I bought it he gave me a commercial powder that it was really close to but I can’t find where I made that note (wasn’t smart enough to write it on the label). So.... anyone here familiar with the powder I have? Or have a good number for David? The cell number I have is evidently disconnected. 

[Darrell]

Take a look at these threads and see if it helps:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?276605-Pull-down-surplus-7-62x54R-powder-for-use-in-7-62x54R-with-different-bullets

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/8mm-7-62x54r-surplus-powder.29892/

Apparently there was a good deal of this pull-down powder around for a time.  And apparently you are not alone in trying to figure out a rough-equivalent powder for reloading data. Please be cautious in making your decisions!

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Darrell

[No_0ne]

3 hours ago, Luke E. said:

 Been a long while since I’ve posted anything on here!

 Anyhow, years ago I bought a jug of powder from David (not sure if he’s still around?) and it’s labeled 7.62x54r. When I bought it he gave me a commercial powder that it was really close to but I can’t find where I made that note (wasn’t smart enough to write it on the label). So.... anyone here familiar with the powder I have? Or have a good number for David? The cell number I have is evidently disconnected. 

It's best to start off low and work your way up until you find a suitable load.  The problem with using load data for this powder is that the Soviets used a variety of powders over the years for this ammo.  Some rounds were loaded for rifle usage, most of the rounds made in the last 50 years were designed for machine guns, some of which were manufactured very recently chambered in 7.62x54r.  The MG stuff was/is a good bit hotter than the earlier 147 gr rifle rounds.  There were a number of distinct types of 7.62x54r ammo produced over the 130 years it's been in production as well, from low recoil 123 gr training ammo up to 182 gr "match" ammo and the aforementioned MG ammo.  Different countries also utilized different powders over the years, it's also not unheard of to find 2 or more different powders in rounds coming from the same tins.  Thus, while the powder you have may be marked "7.62x54r", there's no way of telling what the actual burn rate is, short of carefully working up loads for your particular use.

[Raoul]

And when you do your test load don't forget to take something with you to fish a stuck round out of the barrel....

[Luke E.]

2 hours ago, Darrell said:

Take a look at these threads and see if it helps:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?276605-Pull-down-surplus-7-62x54R-powder-for-use-in-7-62x54R-with-different-bullets

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/8mm-7-62x54r-surplus-powder.29892/

Apparently there was a good deal of this pull-down powder around for a time.  And apparently you are not alone in trying to figure out a rough-equivalent powder for reloading data. Please be cautious in making your decisions!

 

Thanks! I had actually read through those. David had given me a few loads he worked up for .223 using the powder and I feel like the comparable powder he mentioned was an Accurate powder rather than the imr 4895. I was just looking at the jug earlier wondering what all I could do with it. I’ll certainly be cautious. 

[Luke E.]

2 hours ago, No_0ne said:

It's best to start off low and work your way up until you find a suitable load.  The problem with using load data for this powder is that the Soviets used a variety of powders over the years for this ammo.  Some rounds were loaded for rifle usage, most of the rounds made in the last 50 years were designed for machine guns, some of which were manufactured very recently chambered in 7.62x54r.  The MG stuff was/is a good bit hotter than the earlier 147 gr rifle rounds.  There were a number of distinct types of 7.62x54r ammo produced over the 130 years it's been in production as well, from low recoil 123 gr training ammo up to 182 gr "match" ammo and the aforementioned MG ammo.  Different countries also utilized different powders over the years, it's also not unheard of to find 2 or more different powders in rounds coming from the same tins.  Thus, while the powder you have may be marked "7.62x54r", there's no way of telling what the actual burn rate is, short of carefully working up loads for your particular use.

Thanks!

[Luke E.]

2 hours ago, Raoul said:

And when you do your test load don't forget to take something with you to fish a stuck round out of the barrel....

[Raoul]

23 minutes ago, Luke E. said:

Hey, been there...done that..

[Luke E.]

1 minute ago, Raoul said:

Hey, been there...done that..

All in a good days fun I guess. 

[Darrell]

10 hours ago, Luke E. said:

 David had given me a few loads he worked up for .223 using the powder and I feel like the comparable powder he mentioned was an Accurate powder rather than the imr 4895. I was just looking at the jug earlier wondering what all I could do with it. I’ll certainly be cautious. 

Do you have a chronograph? And are you comfortable shooting the loads that David recommended? If so you can chronograph five or ten of those loads and figure an average velocity, then go to a couple of reloading manuals to see which powders yield similar velocities with the same bullets and primers. Those powders that yield similar velocities probably have similar burn rates to the powder that you have. If it were me, I'd choose a powder that yields those velocities near max load, and then load your pulled-down powder at minimum loads and work up from there, paying close attention to signs of over-pressure. 

Another approach would be to see which reloading manual recipes look very close to the loads that David recommended. Checking multiple references should increase your confidence that you have a reasonable match.

[Luke E.]

I’ve got a lab radar and I’m comfortable that I can find a safe starting point. Was just hoping someone was familiar with this particular powder to save some time and components. Not a huge deal. I appreciate the reply!

[Beltfed]

Are you asking about David Campbell out of I believe Ohio or Indiana?

[Raoul]

6 hours ago, Beltfed said:

Are you asking about David Campbell out of I believe Ohio or Indiana?

Different David.

[Raoul]

This is the one that had all the surplus stuff...

https://www.tngunowners.com/forums/profile/5346-dlm37015/

[Beltfed]

The guy I did business with at Knob Creek MG shoot had kegs of surplus powder.  He said to use BL-C-(2) data.  As a reloader for beltfeds, I purchased several from him and still using it.  If you can find an old copy of MGN, early 90’s, he had ads.

[Quavodus]

4 hours ago, Raoul said:

This is the one that had all the surplus stuff...

https://www.tngunowners.com/forums/profile/5346-dlm37015/

He hasn't been on here in over 3 years...…. Sad.

[Raoul]

19 minutes ago, Quavodus said:

He hasn't been on here in over 3 years...…. Sad.

He was an old guy. May have finally decided to slow down. David was a character.

[Luke E.]

40 minutes ago, Raoul said:

He was an old guy. May have finally decided to slow down. David was a character.

That he was. I always enjoyed hanging out with him at his place and Gun shows. 

[Luke E.]

3 hours ago, Beltfed said:

The guy I did business with at Knob Creek MG shoot had kegs of surplus powder.  He said to use BL-C-(2) data.  As a reloader for beltfeds, I purchased several from him and still using it.  If you can find an old copy of MGN, early 90’s, he had ads.

Yea, one of the pulldown powders he sold (846) is really close to Blc but the stuff I’m questioning I a small stick powder. 

[Beltfed]

I have also dealt with that one.  I believe it to be IMR4320.  I believe that reaches  back to the days of the .30-06.  I have pulled down a number of .30-06 with the stick powder and measured the powder weight.  Around 50g to 52g .  That is right in line with the load data for IMR4320.  I can’t tell them apart.  As always, work up your load.

[Raoul]

37 minutes ago, Beltfed said:

I have also dealt with that one.  I believe it to be IMR4320.  I believe that reaches  back to the days of the .30-06.  I have pulled down a number of .30-06 with the stick powder and measured the powder weight.  Around 50g to 52g .  That is right in line with the load data for IMR4320.  I can’t tell them apart.  As always, work up your load.

4320 is a fine powder. Only issue is measuring and honestly I've never had an issue with any rounds I've loaded with it.

[No_0ne]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:36 PM, Luke E. said:

I’ve got a lab radar and I’m comfortable that I can find a safe starting point. Was just hoping someone was familiar with this particular powder to save some time and components. Not a huge deal. I appreciate the reply!

Any info that anyone could give you about their experiences with this powder probably wouldn't be of much use.  As I pointed out earlier, surplus Russian/Soviet ammo is not like pulling down old US ammunition.  There was/is so much variability in the powders they used that one jug could consist of one type, another jug with the same pulldown date a totally different type.  There are also pretty much no surviving records of what they used, and even in cases where records exist that's no guarantee that the powder used is actually what the orders said.  The only way to know what you have is to load carefully, chrono the results, and watch for signs of overpressure.  You treat Soviet era pulldown powder as an unknown substance.

[Luke E.]

13 hours ago, No_0ne said:

Any info that anyone could give you about their experiences with this powder probably wouldn't be of much use.  As I pointed out earlier, surplus Russian/Soviet ammo is not like pulling down old US ammunition.  There was/is so much variability in the powders they used that one jug could consist of one type, another jug with the same pulldown date a totally different type.  There are also pretty much no surviving records of what they used, and even in cases where records exist that's no guarantee that the powder used is actually what the orders said.  The only way to know what you have is to load carefully, chrono the results, and watch for signs of overpressure.  You treat Soviet era pulldown powder as an unknown substance.

Yes, I totally get that. That’s why I was hoping someone had bought the same stuff from David when he had it. I do remember roughly what charge weight he suggested so I’ll back that down and start working back up.