Help! TICS/TBI Denied - UPDATE ***OVERTURNED***

[DaveTN]

3 hours ago, ACfixer said:

or am I assuming something that might not be the case?

Just depends on what they saw. Did you use your SS Number? It could be as simple as a convicted felon that has close to the same name and DOB as you. But since you said that they told your FFL it was “something out of CA” I would guess your first instincts on the DV is what she saw. My 2nd WAG would be it doesn’t show dismissed or she would not have flagged it.

[ACfixer]

So here's the latest!

I found a great deal on Armslist on a Rem 700 I have been looking for for quite some time... Just decided what the hell let's try this again. So my FFL calls last night and tells me the rifle was there and to come on over.

I get there and after exchanging pleasantries we get down to the business of the background check, but instead of using the online system he calls it in. He's on the phone for a couple minutes and the subject of my denial and subsequent overturn come up. She asks him (and me) if it had to do with a charge in California many years ago, and we responded "yes, as far as we know." She says "hmmm... hold on a sec" and puts him on hold. Evidently she got a supervisor or something, not sure, but we were on hold for about ten minutes I suppose. When she gets back on the line, she issues an approval number and my rifle is six feet to the right of me as I type. Unfortunately she wouldn't tell me a damn thing as to which charge and which county it might be in. She did say unless the records have been updated I could be denied again, but she didn't tell him if the record had in fact been updated and she did in fact approve the transaction and we really don't know if it would have been approved or denied. Frustrating right? All's well that ends well, and I am sure glad I have an FFL that is willing to take the time to call it in like that, you aren't going to get that kind of service at Bass Pro or Academy that's for sure.

I'll proceed with my C&R application, in the meantime maybe I'll just try buying a stripped lower or something somewhere else and see what happens.

Stay tuned boys and girls!

[papa61]

Read the beginning and ending and have to agree. This does happen. I bought a pistol at one of the shops here. A few months later I tried to purchase a rifle at the same shop and got dinged. It was Christmas present for my son so wife tried to purchase. No go due to the strawman laws. Couple days later the shop called to tell me it cleared. bought another rifle at another shop several months later without issue. Never got an answer to why I was denied. Welcome to Tennessee by the way1

[ACfixer]

9 minutes ago, papa61 said:

Read the beginning and ending and have to agree. This does happen. I bought a pistol at one of the shops here. A few months later I tried to purchase a rifle at the same shop and got dinged. It was Christmas present for my son so wife tried to purchase. No go due to the strawman laws. Couple days later the shop called to tell me it cleared. bought another rifle at another shop several months later without issue. Never got an answer to why I was denied. Welcome to Tennessee by the way1

Were you denied or delayed papa61? Did you send in the appeal then?

[papa61]

Just now, ACfixer said:

Were you denied or delayed papa61? Did you send in the appeal then?

just delayed since I didn't have to appeal. Someone just missed something.

[ACfixer]

32 minutes ago, papa61 said:

just delayed since I didn't have to appeal. Someone just missed something.

I was delayed once in CA for a couple days, no explanation but they cleared it pretty quickly. I hear that can happen for all kinds of reasons. Other than that I bought dozens of guns there, other than the ridiculous ten day waiting period it always went smoothly there.

Edited January 9, 2021 by ACfixer

[midtennchip]

This is a bit late to the party (seems to be my habit lately), but thought this might help someone along the way.  There are all kinds of reasons issues arise on TICS years after the fact (and after previous purchases with no issues).  This has been discussed at NRA legal seminars and matches up with experiences I've had.  Here are the most likely reasons:

1.  An old arrest without a disposition -- The typical reason for an old issue popping up is a new electronic reporting of the issue.  After the Virginia Tech shooting years ago, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act was passed and state reporting to the FBI dramatically changed.  To meet the requirements, many states have been gradually entering older cases (ones before they used computer databases) into their electronic databases over the years.  You'd think most courts were using databases by the 1990s, but that isn't always the case.   Even when they did, those databases did not always link to the state or FBI.  So, an old arrest can pop up now when someone finally enters the old arrest into their system, the state makes a software update, they link old databases, or some other reason that changes or updates the data being reported to the FBI.  For example, the state of Wyoming had 30+ years of arrest records on microfilm in the state archives that were gradually being entered into electronic form.  Even though the project was complete, the state found a new batch of microfilm that had supposedly been lost and (magically), a new issue arose for one of my clients from the late 1970s.  I only found out after 5 phone calls to the archives clerk in Wyoming. 

2.  Failure to Enter Dismissal -- This is similar to #1, but I see this one more in TN.  In TN, it is not usual for someone to plead out a case that involves (i) some probation or conditions and then (ii) a dismissal if the probation or condition is met.  So, the charges are active for a period of time and are dismissed at the end of the probation/condition period.  But for whatever reason, the court clerk does not enter the dismissal at the end.  The person has no idea what needs to be done to enter the dismissal and assumes that either the court or the criminal attorney will handle it (and normally does).  However, in the rare case the court or the attorney fails to do it, the affected person doesn't realize it until a TICS is run.

3.  Wrong Names -- This is rare, but it does happen (often in connection with an issue like #1 above).  Someone with a similar name (or where a court clerk types the name in incorrectly) causes something to pop up on your background check.

There are some others, but they are fairly unique circumstances.  In virtually all of these cases, the proper way to handle it is (i) find out what is causing it (through the appeal or run your own FBI background check and (ii) go to the source to resolve it.  If the problem is from out of state, you would need help in that other state (that is, a TN attorney is not likely to be able to help).

[tnhawk]

On 12/15/2020 at 11:13 AM, ACfixer said:

I think I am going to do that AND the C&R license. I'm not going to lie, I was really in the dumps over this tnhawk. I'm a real square peg and have been for 30 years and this really caught me off guard. Whatever I need to do to not have this happen anymore I'm on it.

Even after getting a UPIN issued, I still worry  when /if I will get another denial.  I usually had multiple purchases and years between the denials.  On the positive side, I'm not making many purchases since my retirement.

[Don N]

I have made four purchases in Knoxville since the beginning of this year, the first at Academy Sports was denied, I filed an appeal and on the very last day that they had to legally make a decision, my denial was overturned.  My next purchase was at Shoot Point Blank, again the same - denied then overturned on the last day.  My third purchase was again at Academy, and lo and behold, I was approved within minutes.  My last purchase was at Shoot Point Blank, and I was again denied.  I am awaiting a decision.  I have a totally clear record and there is nothing that would that would preclude me from purchasing a firearm.  I have purchased numerous firearms in the past and never had a problem before.  There appears to be something amiss in the system somewhere, as I was denied twice, then approved, then denied again.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Don N

[ACfixer]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Don, that's really frustrating. I'll bet in your case perhaps a common name, it seems the only other thing that causes this is an arrest and for some reason the case is never disposed of properly in the records dept.

Here's an update on mine...

I applied for a C&R as suggested here (thank you Dave) and received a letter back from the ATF saying there were a couple issues from 1988 and 1989 that had "no disposition" on record. They listed the date of arrest, the jurisdiction and the charges. I contacted the San Bernardino County Courts in SoCal and got beck a prompt accounting of everything they have on record, nothing disqualifying of course, but also a letter saying they could not help me any any further as they are only required to keep misdemeanor stuff ten years and I would have to contact the CA DOJ for more info and they may have it.

I have nothing to hide, it was in another life... but let's be clear, life choices have consequences and this is MY fault. Yes, someone in record keeping dropped the ball, but it was me doing something stupid in the first place that threw out the first pitch and got the game going. The charges were dismissed or plead to a minor misdemeanor, but the fact remains, life choices stick with you. Here I am at age 59 dealing with something stupid I did at age 28.

I am going to send everything San Bernardino sent me to the ATF (after making copies and scans of course) and I will also send copies of all that to TICS/TBI just for the hell of it and then contact the CA DOJ this week and see what I can dig up.

Stay tuned.

Edited April 20, 2021 by ACfixer

[Don N]

Thanks for your reply, ACfixer.  I'm wondering if the fact that there are so many applications recently, that the departments are making more mistakes than usual.

[ACfixer]

3 hours ago, Don N said:

Thanks for your reply, ACfixer.  I'm wondering if the fact that there are so many applications recently, that the departments are making more mistakes than usual.

 

Not sure, but it seems to be more prevalent with TN I am learning. Frustrating because for all the good that in Tennessee, well, this isn't good. In my case I hate to blame them because it's due to stupid #### I did when I was young, but it would be nice to clear this up once and for all because I am not a prohibited person. Anyway, as was suggested to me on this forum, perhaps download the application for a C&R 003 FFL and pay the $30, you'll most likely get an answer within a couple weeks at to what is causing this and you can work on clearing it up.

There are a few cases of this happening documented here and the folks have been really helpful in my journey to clear it up. In my case I now know the reason and it will be overturned every time I am denied... and since I am from California I'm used to waiting two weeks for every gun anyway! But yeah, still sucks.

Hang around, work on it, ask the good people here about it and we'll get through this.

[Raoul]

So you guys were stupid when you were young and you're surprised when it bites you in the ass? Just be glad TN affords you a way to move past your youthful indiscretions. 

[gary_boom]

Didn’t everyone do stupid things when you were young ?  The difference is some of us didn’t get caught.

[ACfixer]

6 hours ago, Raoul said:

So you guys were stupid when you were young and you're surprised when it bites you in the ass? Just be glad TN affords you a way to move past your youthful indiscretions. 

I think I have been really forthcoming about indiscretions of my youth Raoul, and if you can show me where I said it surprises me that it "bites me in the ass" I'll thank you and correct it. I was surprised at the denial because I have legally purchased dozens of firearms through FFL's (in California) over the last three decades, so I think all of a sudden getting denied in a free state would surprise you too. But I am NOT a prohibited person and have never committed a crime that would prohibit me from owning a firearm, and in fact paid for my lesser violations with plenty of money and even a little jail time. You know, my debt to society. TN is not "affording me" anything at this point, I have a right guaranteed by US constitutional amendment number two, and a right delayed is a right denied. I appreciated the freedoms in this state, that's why I moved here... I'm not blaming them for anything here, but it's a mistake I need to get cleared up.

Thank you.
 

Edited April 22, 2021 by ACfixer

[tnhawk]

Although it took a long wait to obtain, after getting a UPIN I've not had any further TICS/TBI denials.

Good luck!

[ACfixer]

6 hours ago, tnhawk said:

Although it took a long wait to obtain, after getting a UPIN I've not had any further TICS/TBI denials.

Good luck!

I'll look into that tnhawk, thank you. Now that I know exactly what's apparently bothering them, I'm not worried about getting denied without it being overturned really, I'd just like to get it cleared up. What was the cause of your initial denials? I was thinking the UPIN was for those with common names and such and that being the problem. My name isn't that common, and since I know that's not the issue here I'm not sure the UPIN would help, but it can't hurt right?

[tnhawk]

Before obtaining  my HCP I had to get a court record from Houston showing a dismissed charge. One denial was from someone with same name.  Another denial apparently due to an address misprint on a drivers license.  I had two denials on out of state purchases with no explanation given once purchase was approved.  After being issued a UPIN, I have not had another purchase denial.

[Don N]

Just an update on my situation, it has been 20 days since my appeal has been filed and the FFL has not been notified.  The gun store manager where I purchased the firearm told me this is quite common and could take up to the full 30 day period where I would have to start the process over again.  She also said if my appeal was going to be denied, they would have heard by now, but the fact that my appeal will certainly be overturned is the reason it's taking so long.

[ACfixer]

I thought they only had 14 days to figure it out?

[Don N]

Supposedly, but according to my gun store manager, it's not adhered to fairly regularly.

 

[ACfixer]

Just an update on the ongoing saga. The ATF called me back after I mailed everything that San Bernardino County sent me,  evidently it's not enough as it doesn't address actual the actual charges listed? The charges listed were either dropped or plead down to some minor stuff and so it show's a different charge I guess.  I've sent fingerprints and a request for a full background check from the CA DOJ and I asked the representative from the ATF to please keep the file open until we hear back from them. This is way out of my wheelhouse, but I'll keep after it and update when I can.

[Don N]

Just an update: 30 days had passed since my application was initially denied.  The FFL had heard nothing from TBI, so I reapplied today and it was approved.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Don N

[Raoul]

On 11/27/2020 at 7:55 PM, ACfixer said:

UPDATE 12/10/20 - OVERTURNED

 

Today (after two successful approvals last month) I was denied a handgun purchase today here in Tennessee. Appeal filed. In a couple decades of buying guns and 4 different CCW's I am shocked.

 

Just moved here from CA in September, I have had my driver's license and CCW for a couple months now. Had my CCW in California as well. The only thing the lady could tell my FFL is that it was "something out of California" and I would need to appeal. According to my FFL she told him it "could be overturned" and she sounded as though it probably would be. I had a past... like drug possession and DUI and stuff over 30 years ago, but I have not even had a moving violation since 1991. No felonies. I did have a DV case that was dismissed around 1987 maybe? Arrest, no conviction. For the last 30 year I have been a real square peg!

 

Any guesses or help?

 

Thanks!

Lance

History is a real bitch..eh?

[ACfixer]

On 5/15/2021 at 9:56 PM, Raoul said:

History is a real bitch..eh?

What the hell is the matter with you?