Help! TICS/TBI Denied - UPDATE ***OVERTURNED***

[ACfixer]

UPDATE 12/10/20 - OVERTURNED

 

Today (after two successful approvals last month) I was denied a handgun purchase today here in Tennessee. Appeal filed. In a couple decades of buying guns and 4 different CCW's I am shocked.

 

Just moved here from CA in September, I have had my driver's license and CCW for a couple months now. Had my CCW in California as well. The only thing the lady could tell my FFL is that it was "something out of California" and I would need to appeal. According to my FFL she told him it "could be overturned" and she sounded as though it probably would be. I had a past... like drug possession and DUI and stuff over 30 years ago, but I have not even had a moving violation since 1991. No felonies. I did have a DV case that was dismissed around 1987 maybe? Arrest, no conviction. For the last 30 year I have been a real square peg!

 

Any guesses or help?

 

Thanks!

Lance

Edited December 10, 2020 by ACfixer
Added info

[Chucktshoes]

There may be something that pinged as an arrest without a disposition, though it will likely get overturned on appeal. If it doesn’t, you’ll need to contact the court in the location where it was handled and get the docs to send to NICS. 

[ACfixer]

Thank you... but curious as to why two prior purchases went through no problem? Any idea?

[Chucktshoes]

You’d think it would be consistent, it ain’t. I spent enough time behind the counter at a gun shop to learn that. So I can’t help you with a why, just an idea of the what. 

[Raoul]

 

Because someone somewhere did not have the info to cleanup your background indiscretions you're getting dinged.

Might be time to consider spending a few bucks on a knowledgeable attorney to clean this up.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Raoul

[ACfixer]

8 minutes ago, Raoul said:

Because someone somewhere did not have the info to cleanup your background indiscretions you're getting dinged.

Might be time to consider spending a few bucks on a knowledgeable attorney to clean this up.

Yeah I don't know Raoul, I mean dozens of purchases over the years and CCW's in four states... Hard to imagine what wasn't cleaned up. I guess if TN had denied my first couple of purchase or denied my CCW I would agree but this sure seems out of the blue. Stay tuned I guess.

 

What really sucks is that is was a GunBroker purchase so I'm out the $1,400 until we get it cleared up. Not the end if the world, but certainly enough to annoy me.

Edited November 28, 2020 by ACfixer

[Raoul]

18 minutes ago, ACfixer said:

Yeah I don't know Raoul, I mean dozens of purchases over the years and CCW's in four states... Hard to imagine what wasn't cleaned up. I guess if TN had denied my first couple of purchase or denied my CCW I would agree but this sure seems out of the blue. Stay tuned I guess.

 

What really sucks is that is was a GunBroker purchase so I'm out the $1,400 until we get it cleared up. Not the end if the world, but certainly enough to annoy me.

I'm just basing this on previous occurrences we've seen reported on TGO over the years. Stuff happens, it's taken care of, but somewhere someone doesn't note it in the right place, and years later this deal occurs.

Good luck and keep us informed as to the outcome.

[ACfixer]

Thanks. Yeah, I stumbled upon another member here with a very similar story last April and that's how I found the site. Seems they just released the handgun after a couple weeks of hassles and some phone calls. Like I said, for some reason the TBI lady on the phone with my FFL seemed to indicate to him that it would likely be cleared up, but you know how we are... we want answers!

[Raoul]

2 minutes ago, ACfixer said:

Thanks. Yeah, I stumbled upon another member here with a very similar story last April and that's how I found the site. Seems they just released the handgun after a couple weeks of hassles and some phone calls. Like I said, for some reason the TBI lady on the phone with my FFL seemed to indicate to him that it would likely be cleared up, but you know how we are... we want answers!

Yeah, it's our nature to be impatient. Be cool, it'll happen.

[ACfixer]

The FFL told me the TBI lady told him it was "something out of California" which of course makes sense since I lived there 50 years... Something sort of interesting, when my GF and I got out CCW's last month mine did take about 4 days longer to approve, but it was approved and rather quickly... to me anyway. Application to card in wallet was probably three weeks or less. I just surrendered my CA ccw after getting TN, but I also hold Arizona and Utah non-resident permits (common for CA residents because they offer greater reciprocity than CA alone). Never an issue there or with any other gun purchase.

[DaveTN]

24 minutes ago, ACfixer said:

The FFL told me the TBI lady told him it was "something out of California" which of course makes sense since I lived there 50 years... Something sort of interesting, when my GF and I got out CCW's last month mine did take about 4 days longer to approve, but it was approved and rather quickly... to me anyway. Application to card in wallet was probably three weeks or less. I just surrendered my CA ccw after getting TN, but I also hold Arizona and Utah non-resident permits (common for CA residents because they offer greater reciprocity than CA alone). Never an issue there or with any other gun purchase.

I was arrested in Illinois 35 years ago for having a gun in my car. It was a misdemeanor and the charges were dismissed. I bought guns through FFL’s in Illinois and Florida for over 20 years after that without it ever being an issue.

When I moved to Tennessee I was refused. The TBI lady said she wasn’t allowed to tell me what it was; so I told her. I also told her it was dismissed, and even if it wasn’t; it was a misdemeanor. She told me it could be a felony in Tennessee.

A family member was dating an Illinois State Trooper at the time that worked in the division that handled background checks. He said Illinois wasn’t reporting anything on me other than a couple of traffic tickets; it didn’t come from them.

To see what the Feds were reporting I had to request a background check. It was $25 at the time. A C&R FFL was $30, so I went that route, knowing it would involve a background check. I got a letter from the BATF telling me the gun charge did not have a disposition, and how to fix it. I did what they said, got approved for the C&R, had the dismissal added to the Feds database (by Illinois) and haven’t had any problems since.

The TBI seems to be very quick to refuse. I don’t know if that’s because they are more through, or its because other states understood what they were seeing and the TBI did not. But we have seen several cases on this forum where people thought because a charge was dismissed they were good. You aren’t if a database somewhere doesn’t have a disposition.

Good luck.

[ACfixer]

I read about your experience earlier today Dave, thank you. I guess the real head-scratchers for me were the prior TN approvals in the last few weeks, what changed? And of course this happens on a weekend...

I want to call CA and see if there's something, but I just cannot even imagine what. I mean seriously, 29 years of sobriety and a perfect DMV and police record.

[DaveTN]

18 minutes ago, ACfixer said:

I read about your experience earlier today Dave, thank you. I guess the real head-scratchers for me were the prior TN approvals in the last few weeks, what changed? And of course this happens on a weekend...

I want to call CA and see if there's something, but I just cannot even imagine what. I mean seriously, 29 years of sobriety and a perfect DMV and police record.

The BATF told me to contact the County Clerks office, get a certified copy of the court document showing the disposition. I did and they were good with that. My daughter works in the County Building and did that for me. The lady there told her it happens all the time. She gave her two certified copies, because she said it happened to her husband, and would probably again. She said the dismissal had been sent to the FBI, but she would submit it again. It’s been years, and I’ve not had the problem again.

[ACfixer]

Around 1987-ish I was arrested on a DoVi - totally fabricated by a vengeful (ex) wife during a divorce. Damn if I didn't almost plead guilty to that just to take the easy route... no jail and pay a fine + anger classes right? Something told me deep inside the day of the plea bargain "you're not guilty, make them try you" and so I withdrew my plea. I said you know what I'll take my chances with a jury because I didn't do this, let's put that beooootch on the stand. Well, she didn't show up to court and they dismissed it. I am wondering if that might be the culprit?

So I faxed the appeal by eFax, I guess all I can do now is wait. I checked every SoCal court record I could online today in the four counties I lived around, nothing of course. This just makes me feel so low... like I am a crook or something, just awful. Oh well. Went out and shot for a while today, just couldn't get in the mood. Woe is me.

[ACfixer]

Man this crap is making me feel less than human.

The TICS appeal line is a recording, do you think if I hit one of the other options I could get a live person that might point me in the right direction to help them clear this up? I'd pay a lawyer whatever if need be, I just don't ever want to have to go through this again.

[tmauto769]

possibly, I had to talk to an IRS agent earlier this summer and that is what I had to resort to in order to get someone on the line. Luckily for me the guy that answered was the dept. I needed to talk to. I just started pushing prompts for something other than what I needed, and it worked go figure. lol. oh yeah, there was a prompt for me to input my ss# which I did nothing and that's when the guy answered, hmmmm.

[stumpy]

My son-in-law was denied a purchase by the TICS unit about 6 years ago. He appealed and through that process had the opportunity to speak directly with one of the TICS personnel.  As in your case she would not tell him a thing about the charge, date of the offense, etc. until she finally got tired of dealing with him and asked if he had ever had any troubles in one specific county in our area.  "Why, I've never been into that county" he answered.  All she could say was "Hmmmmm."  Off he goes to that county and to the clerk's office.  They had a closed case file of a person with the same first and last name but a different middle name.  The case was so minor the clerks office sent only the defendant's first and last middle names to the state without adding the middle name.  THERE was the hang-up.  Without a complete name the TICS unit could not determine whether the SIL and the defendant were the same or different people.  To make matters more interesting, my SIL knew the owner of that missing middle name.  It was his FATHER!  He called dear old dad and they had one long and angry discussion.  Since that time SIL has not been denied any purchase by the TICS unit.

[robin48]

Tics is unpredictable as hell. I know a guy who bought a rifle one day and denied a shotgun later in the week. 

[ACfixer]

9 hours ago, robin48 said:

Tics is unpredictable as hell. I know a guy who bought a rifle one day and denied a shotgun later in the week. 

Thank you Robin, any details as to the reason for denial or what the final outcome was?

[DaveTN]

On 11/28/2020 at 5:07 PM, ACfixer said:

 

So I faxed the appeal by eFax, I guess all I can do now is wait. 

You can get an attorney. But you can also buy a FBI background check and you would see what they are seeing from the feds. If the information is coming from a state, you may have to contact them. It’s really not hard, if you get to talk to people that want to do their job.  

My wild azz guess is that the person that did your last check is seeing that DV, and either there is no disposition or there’s something they are latching onto that the others didn’t. Because even if that’s a misdemeanor; that’s a disqualifier

Don’t beat yourself up, if you don’t have a disqualifier; its not on you. But I understand how you feel. My FFL said he’s had many people that have never even been arrested turned down. It appears (from what we see here and other forums) the TBI does it more than most states.

I don’t know how Covid is affecting them, but your appeal should have been done by now. Mine was done right then by my FFL on a Thursday or Friday and it cleared on Monday. But that’s been a few years ago.

Did you include a copy of your HCP when you faxed your appeal?

[ACfixer]

No it didn't ask for my permit or anything like that Dave, and I really didn't need them saying "oh yeah, well now that's invalid!" or something ridiculous like that. How do I know if my appeal is done? I don't want to get a lawyer involved if I don't have to obviously, if I am going to spend that kind of money I'd rather buy a Barrett! But we can't have this happening every time I try to buy through an FFL.

FWIW I just paid a wasted $30 to TORIS to see my TN background, nothing of course. Grasping at straws here... Getting your history from CA is a hassle to say the least, fingerprint cards and a month or two. I'll go that route if I have to but good Lord I hope it resolves before it comes to that.

Edited December 3, 2020 by ACfixer

[DaveTN]

11 minutes ago, ACfixer said:

No it didn't ask for my permit or anything like that Dave, and I really didn't need them saying "oh yeah, well now that's invalid!" or something ridiculous like that. How do I know if my appeal is done? I don't want to get a lawyer involved if I don't have too obviously, if I am going to spend that kind of money I'd rather buy a Barrett! But we can't have this happening every time I try to buy through an FFL.

When your appeal is done; it is sent to the FFL. It is approved, denied, or is a “conditional approval” (meaning they aren’t sure, and its up to the FFL if he wants to proceed or not.).

If they were going to pull your permit for a disqualifier; they would do it.

The only way you won’t have it happening every time is to find out what happened and fix it. They only way you can do that; is if the TBI tells you what is wrong, or you see a copy of your background check. The TBI was of very little help to be, the BATF agent handling my C&R application told me what it was and how to fix it. It worked.

We are all guessing at this point.

[ACfixer]

Sent to the FFL how, electronically I hope? Yeah I would think if I actually had a disqualifying offense I never would have been given all the CCW's I have over the last decade.

Your suggestion of a C&R application was taken to heart Dave, that's my next course of action after this clears up.

 

[DaveTN]

23 minutes ago, ACfixer said:

Sent to the FFL how, electronically I hope? Yeah I would think if I actually had a disqualifying offense I never would have been given all the CCW's I have over the last decade.

Your suggestion of a C&R application was taken to heart Dave, that's my next course of action after this clears up.

 

Mind didn’t clear up until I did that. I could have paid $25 for a FBI background check, and had to get fingerprints to send. A C&R was $30. I thought the feds might be more willing to tell me what was happening than the TBI. They were.

Also…. It appears to me that the TBI is kinda butt hurt that they not allowed by law to keep background check information on file. When I asked them if I could submit the documentation I had, to them, so this didn’t happen again, I got “Oh we aren’t allowed to do that”. I asked, So this will happen again? She said probably.

In their defense; there was an issue. Was it a disqualifier? No, and it was over 25 years old. When I told her it was misdemeanor, she said it could be a felony in Tennessee. Whatever…

I don’t know how it was sent to the FFL. I assume it was faxed since that was how it had to be submitted at that time. Have you checked with the FFL?

[TrashcanDan]

That C&R actually is a fantastic idea. I think I'll go that route prior to moving down just to avoid what I've been reading on this thread.