10 Points on Concealed Carry

[waynesan]

Here is a post I copied from packing.org that was originally posted on 1911.com that I thought was interesting. Definately food for thought.

1. We don't carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where one goes and what one does.

We don't walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don't hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. A gun is our last resort, not our first.

2. We don't think we are cops, spies, or superheros. We aren't hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don't take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don't believe our

guns give us any authority over our fellow citizens. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you want to take this kind of responsibility for your personal safety.

Except for extraordinary circumstances your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.

3. We are LESS likely, not more likely, to be involved in fights or "rage" incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting

someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don't pull our guns to settle arguments or to attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.

4. We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other security measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.

5. Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable. Modern firearms are well-made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply laying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to

discharge on its own.

6. We do not believe in the concept of "accidental discharges". There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned

how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun "going off" was the result of negligence on somebody's part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.

7. Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times with an observant fellow citizen may spot our firearm or the print of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also

realize that our society does much to condition our fellow citizens to have sometimes irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good

judgment and clear thinking if they feel to need to take action. Please recognize that it's very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private

security. Please don't generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like "there's a guy running around in the store with a gun" or even simply "I saw a man with a gun in the store" could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the

incident.

8. The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us would avoid that place all together if possible. However, we recognize that trouble could occur at any place

and at any time. Criminals do not observe "gun free zones". If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on "how safe" we

think a location is.

9. Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is

appropriate to save lives. Review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee or choose to end their own life. Lives are saved when resistance engages a violent criminal. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.

10. The fact that criminals know that some of the population may be armed at any given time helps to deter violence against all citizens. Permit holders don't believe that every person should necessarily be

armed. We recognize that some people may not be temperamentally suited to carry a firearm or simply may wish not to for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please

oppose measures to limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As mentioned before: criminals do not observe "gun free zones". Help by not supporting laws that require citizens to be

unarmed victims.

[The Rabbi]

Nice!

[shaftbass]

You guys don't carry guns to settle arguments?

Amateurs

[Guest Kingfish]

I only have one issue with this...

7. Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed.

Although this is about concealed carry it is really about lawful carry and I don't think much about anyone who does not support the right to Open Carry....Though I fully understand if anyone wants to conceal, it is just not the way I live...Although when I move, I will have to (conceal that is.)

[dariks]

You guys don't carry guns to settle arguments?

Amateurs

__________________

G04T5E

Your sig doesn't mean what I think it means, does it?

[The Rabbi]

I only have one issue with this...

Although this is about concealed carry it is really about lawful carry and I don't think much about anyone who does not support the right to Open Carry....Though I fully understand if anyone wants to conceal, it is just not the way I live...Although when I move, I will have to (conceal that is.)

We talk a lot about "avoiding trouble" and "avoiding bad situations." This is just part of that. Carrying openly is imo an invitation to trouble. I'd support anyone's right to carry openly but think a person who does so regularly is exhibiting poor judgement.

[Marswolf]

I have mixed feelings on avoiding open carry. Of course open carry is pretty normal for me, either fully open or IWB but with the grip clearly visible. But I dress like someone who would carry, frequently with a military T-shirt and LE or Homeland Security cap. I'd like to see open carry become common so the non-carrying public would get used to it and maybe want to pack themselves.

This is from the Virginia Citizens Defense League newsletter. Do remember that Virginia laws are different than ours and anyone may open carry.

On Saturday June 23rd, knowing open carry is legal in Virginia county

parks, VCDL EM Andy Amerine and a group of us from

<http://www.opencarry.org/> organized a picnic in Burke Lake Park.

About 20 open carriers, some VCDL members, some not (yet!), came

together with their families and children to enjoy the beautiful

weather and the friendship.

As the picnic was starting, one member was walking on the road open

carrying when he was stopped by park employees to ask if he needed

directions. He thanked them and continued on his way but then saw

them down the road making a cell phone call and looking nervously at

him. It wasn't long until the group heard a helicopter flying over

the picnic area and jokingly commented that perhaps it was for them.

When it continued to circle directly over the group, we soberly

realized that it perhaps indeed it was.

Not five minutes passed when a county vehicle and two Fairfax County

Police Department (FCPD) cruisers pulled up to the picnic area. This

would be my first LEO encounter while open carrying and a first for

many in our group. The four officers conferred with each other and

the park employees before two officers came over to the group. I was

manning the grill closest to them when they stopped and said hello

and asked him if there was any reason we were wearing firearms. I

told them "No reason, we're just citizens open carrying". He then

asked if we were law enforcement and I told him no, then he asked who

was in charge of the group and I told him that no one was, we were

just a bunch of friends out for a picnic. He said "OK, thanks, we'll

get back to you if we need to."

They walked behind a stand of trees and were conferring with one

another and the park employees when an officer who skirted the group

appeared with a ballistic shield. VCDL member Ian Branson had his

ever present camcorder handy and was able to tape the encounter and

spot four more cruisers waiting at the park gate. We could see the

police and park employees looking through their notebooks and the

park employees were becoming visibly irritated. After about 20

minutes, the police and park employees left without so much as a peep

and we were all relieved.

A couple hours later, FCPD Officers C.D. Hoggatt and S.A. Struthers

returned with the park employees who remained where they originally

stood at the first encounter. The officers approached me again and

explained the situation. They acknowledged that we were completely

legal and that they had received a call (likely from the park

manager) about a "lone gunman" walking through the park and were

surprised to see about 20 OC'ers peaceably having a picnic with their

families.

OFC Hoggatt explained that the park manager had an outdated set of

county park regs and asked us for a name for his report. One other

member gave him his card and I handed him my retired Navy ID. He

didn't ask for ID and I didn't have to provide it, but with a name

like mine it was easier and broke the ice as he was a former Marine.

He asked if we had a flyer or something to handout and we provided

him with a copy of a page of VA Firearms Statutes that I created and

many of us carry with us. We gave him the name of the OpenCarry.org

forum and we had a great conversation with both officers. They said

they were glad to see see responsible citizens exercising their

rights and who knew the law and believe me, we were just as glad they

knew the law as well! We talked for a bit more, thanked them for

their calm level-headedness and professionalism and shook their hands

before they left to speak again with the park manager before

departing. We could see the park manager was extremely upset and

acting like a child and one member said he thought if it was a

baseball game she would have kicked dirt on his shoes!

Folks, this was about as textbook an encounter as it can get and many

who were there have already sent e-mails and letters thanking the

FCPD and a couple complaining to the Fairfax County Parks Authority.

Though the park manager needed to update her regs and get over her

childish temper tantrums and hoplophobia, the FCPD was extremely

professional during the entire encounter. In fact, one of the

officers is now a member on www.OpenCarry.org and hopefully soon a

member of VCDL!

[molonlabetn]

...a person who does so regularly is exhibiting poor judgement.

If there was a rash of targeted crimes against OCers, I might be inclined to agree... but as it stands, it's simply a choice which some would be uncomfortable exercising themselves because of the exaggerated hype it has received as causing undue hassle. In reality, it's surprising how little negative attention it generates, especially in this state... and it almost always results in a peaceful resolution, and a more educated complainant.

[Guest Kingfish]

Yea, I am not going to argue OC vs CC.

Was making a point that the article says permit holders conceal and that is not the case.

You can hide your rights in your pocket if you want, but mine will be on my hip.

[shaftbass]

Your sig doesn't mean what I think it means, does it?

If you think it means a beautiful crimson sunrise, you would be correct

[waynesan]

Thanks Marswolf,

As always from you, a very interesting post. I am very envious of our neighbors in Va. for being allowed to carry in Va. State Parks. I have had a few occasions since Va. changed their law to allow this to go to a Va. Park and it was really nice not to have to leave my gun at home or hide it in my car while there. I just wish our wise leaders in Nashville could see that this is no problem and change our laws to allow us the same "legal" right.

[Marswolf]

Just remember that Virginia State Parks are concealed only with a permit.

[DaveTN]

Come on now… who else read #6 and laughed out loud and thought… “Whoever wrote that has been spending too much time around Glocksters.â€

.

[Branket]

Your sig doesn't mean what I think it means, does it?

Glad I'm not the only one who was wondering this.

[The Rabbi]

If there was a rash of targeted crimes against OCers, I might be inclined to agree... but as it stands, it's simply a choice which some would be uncomfortable exercising themselves because of the exaggerated hype it has received as causing undue hassle. In reality, it's surprising how little negative attention it generates, especially in this state... and it almost always results in a peaceful resolution, and a more educated complainant.

I guess my preference is for no resolution because I'd prefer not to have the hassle in the first place.

I dont need to wear my rights on my hip. I don't need to run around in camo fatigues. I am a middle-aged fat Orthodox Jewish man. I already get enough attention and I hardly need more. If someone wants to "make a point" he is free to do so. That's what makes this country great.

For me, discretion is the better part of valor.

[Marswolf]

I don't need to run around in camo fatigues.

Yeah, then you'd look like a coal miner out on strike.

[Guest Kingfish]

I don't need to run around in camo fatigues.

Who the hell said anything about camo fatigues?

I am a middle-aged fat Orthodox Jewish man.

What does your religion have to do with OC? If your religion did have something to do with it that is one thing but calling us irresponsible for no other reason than we wear our guns outside our pants instead of inside is ridiculous.

You don't know me dude.

Rabbi, do you put your money where your mouth is? Is your shop posted prohibiting Open Carry?

[The Rabbi]

Dude,

You need to take a deep breath. You need to re-read what I wrote and the whole thread.

Nowhere did I say that I oppose open carry. In fact one of my first postings here was in favor of an "open carry day" in TN.

But the OP was about acting maturely and responsibly as gun owners. Part of acting maturely and responsibly is not doing things that rock the boat or attract negative attention, especially for no reason other than "making a statement."

And my shop is open to any law-abiding citizen or non-citizen, regardless of what or how or whether they carry.

[Guest c.a.s.]

Nothin' wrong with runnin' around in fatigues. I never get any odd looks. Of course, I wear a button (snap, really) up shirt over a muscle shirt. I'm a fat 15-year-old who finds fatigues and military clothing comfortable. Now, the jackets in the middle of summer...Yeah, you might get a second look. Even the Desert fatigues' jacket didn't quite stay cool enough...The material just isn't breathable enough for someone my size.

[Guest Kingfish]

We talk a lot about "avoiding trouble" and "avoiding bad situations." This is just part of that. Carrying openly is imo an invitation to trouble. I'd support anyone's right to carry openly but think a person who does so regularly is exhibiting poor judgement.

Yea, right...You never said a discouraging word.

/Done

[The Rabbi]

Yea, right...You never said a discouraging word.

/Done

Well, I could argue as to what I actually said, pointing out the relevant passages. But you've made your mind up about it already, so it is wasted bandwidth.

But I'd recommend reading the OP again, maybe a few times. Because people who open carry need to ask themselves why they do that in light of what the OP said.

[Marswolf]

Guys, we need to end the personal attacks and name calling. One way or another we will do so.

Debate the issues, not the character of the person posting.

We want vigorous debate on issues. Have at it! We don't want personal attacks.

Please think about and re-read your post before you hit the "Submit Reply" button.

[saintsfanbrian]

Open carry is completely legal here in TN with a valid HCP. I do it quite frequently and I don't think twice about it. Well not anymore, I used to. I have been in places where police officers are and I have been in places where the employees would normally not expect it. Frequently I do conceal carry, this is in places where I think it will be more comfortable for the patrons or where I am more comfortable that I won't necessarily need it quickly. Whether I open carry or concealed carry also depends on what I have on that day. Headed to work and will have to disarm before getting on the property, Open carry. Headed to the mall and will likely not need to remove it, probably concealed.

If more of us took the time to display in some small way, the fact that we are carrying, the average Joe on the street will get more accustomed to seeing it and will realize that HCP people are just regular people that don't wait for the police to protect them.

[Guest Old Chief]

I agree that a person has a right to OC if they wish to. I just do not want to attract the extra attention that OC seems to generate. A phrase that comes to mind is "whatever floats your boat..." But for my personal preferance concealed is the way I go. However, it is , after all your boat.

[Guest ProguninTN]

I suppose that list is making the rounds. I saw it on another board yesterday. I have the same qualm. (Item #7). If you want to conceal fine, just don't bash the open folks. (For the record, I have been known to do both.)