Retirement?

[peejman]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

Man you are not that old. It's never too late to start saving for retirement. Every so often there is a thread on reddit asking older people what they wish they had done differently. They number 1 answer is always "I wish I had saved more money". Number 2 is "I wish I had taken better care of my health". Sad how those 2 are directly related. 

Its got nothing to do with saving. You're average working stiff (me) simply cannot save enough to comfortably retire. Social security will be beer money, if anything, and Medicare.... who knows?  If medical costs continue to rise, we're all screwed. I'm paying for my parents SS and Medicare, so the millennials are gonna pay for mine?  

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

Well, .gov made illegal catastrophic care insurance. It was affordable and what we should all have anyway.

Catastrophic coverage is all my $4B employer offers anymore. Just out of curiosity, I went through the Obama care website last year and found the coverage available there was virtually identical to what my employer offers. Coincidence?  

[gregintenn]

I like the idea. As we are fortunate enough to have good insurance, I haven’t tried it personally.

[gregintenn]

3 minutes ago, peejman said:

Its got nothing to do with saving. You're average working stiff (me) simply cannot save enough to comfortably retire. Social security will be beer money, if anything, and Medicare.... who knows?  If medical costs continue to rise, we're all screwed. I'm paying for my parents SS and Medicare, so the millennials are gonna pay for mine?  

Catastrophic coverage is all my $4B employer offers anymore. Just out of curiosity, I went through the Obama care website last year and found the coverage available there was virtually identical to what my employer offers. Coincidence?  

What you are talking about isn’t the same thing as the old insurance plans. They are no longer available.

I would like to disagree about saving for retirement. If one starts early, invests regularly, and stays with it, he doesn’t have to put up very much a month to retire a millionaire. Most folks do not have the discipline or foresight to do this.

Edited September 15, 2020 by gregintenn

[Grayfox54]

I think the real difference for me was that I managed to pay off my house before retiring. No way I could have retired when I did if I still had a mortgage. 

I did keep my city health insurance until age 65, but paid double for it. At 65 they dropped my insurance completely. However they did add an extra $200 per month to my retirement to help cover the cost of a Medicare supplement. I got medicare at 65.

One piece of advice I can offer is that when researching Medicare Supplements, seek out an independent insurance agent who specializes in health insurance plans. The lady came to my home, laid everything out and we spent about 4 hours going over the various plans and options. In the end, I actually got much better coverage than I had with the city at a considerably lower cost. I got a Plan F supplement which is the best. It ain't cheap, but with no mortgage, I can afford it. Naturally, .gov decided to end Plan F this year. Those of us who got it get to keep it, but its no longer available to new enrollees .

[DaveTN]

2 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Us young people are essentially subsidizing the older crowd which I understand. 

Well dang Erik…Thank You!

Here I thought the 50 years I worked and paid in, and the American Manufacturing industry that I worked in was paying. But it makes me smile to know that I was wrong, and you are carrying me. 

BTW… I predict that the health care won’t be an issue by the time you retire. But you probably will have to sell your house because you won’t be able to pay the property taxes that are going to be going out of sight.

[Chucktshoes]

4 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Well dang Erik…Thank You!

Here I thought the 50 years I worked and paid in, and the American Manufacturing industry that I worked in was paying. But it makes me smile to know that I was wrong, and you are carrying me. 

BTW… I predict that the health care won’t be an issue by the time you retire. But you probably will have to sell your house because you won’t be able to pay the property taxes that are going to be going out of sight.

You actually are wrong. The 50 years you worked and paid in was paying for the people who came before you. Social Security and Medicare have always been a Ponzi scheme. Like all ponzi’s, early investors come out well. Later investors, not so much.

[Erik88]

7 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Well dang Erik…Thank You!

Here I thought the 50 years I worked and paid in, and the American Manufacturing industry that I worked in was paying. But it makes me smile to know that I was wrong, and you are carrying me. 

Well considering I wasn't talking about taxes, and I was talking about health insurance, you ARE wrong. Young people paying into health insurance companies are subsidizing the older, more expensive patients. Just like young people will do for me when I'm older. 

[Erik88]

54 minutes ago, peejman said:

You're average working stiff (me) simply cannot save enough to comfortably retire

I respectfully disagree. I think the majority of middle class workers could do it if they are disciplined. If you have kids it's definitely getting harder but should still be possible. 

[Garufa]

9 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

You actually are wrong. The 50 years you worked and paid in was paying for the people who came before you. Social Security and Medicare have always been a Ponzi scheme. Like all ponzi’s, early investors come out well. Later investors, not so much.

Early investors are all dead. Been waiting for the Ponzi card to get thrown and thank you for delivering on only the second page.  

Time for the new and “improved” .

 

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

Early investors are all dead. Been waiting for the Ponzi card to get thrown and thank you for delivering on only the second page.  

Time for the new and “improved” .

 

Do you disagree with the ponzi description? Ido give the early investors credit for doing their part by having a crap ton of kids to support the system. Their kids didn’t.
 

I guess I could have also described it the way that it is legally set up based on SCOTUS case law. Social Security and Medicare are each two individual programs. A general payroll tax and a welfare benefit. Yep I said it. Social Security is legally indistinguishable from welfare.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Chucktshoes

[Grayfox54]

Advice for younger people. Set up an automatic payroll deduction through your bank or Credit Union. The money is automatically taken out of you paycheck and deposited in a savings account every payday.  You never see it, so you don't miss it. You very quickly adjust to living on what you actually bring home. Resist the urge to dip into that account unless absolutely necessary. Start small if need be. Say $20 per paycheck. Gradually increase the amount as income and time increase. I did this through the County Employee's Credit Union when I started working for Bartlett. When I retired I was putting $300 per paycheck in the account. More than once having that money stashed away saved my butt when sudden, unexpected expenses hit. 

[peejman]

15 hours ago, gregintenn said:

What you are talking about isn’t the same thing as the old insurance plans. They are no longer available.

I would like to disagree about saving for retirement. If one starts early, invests regularly, and stays with it, he doesn’t have to put up very much a month to retire a millionaire. Most folks do not have the discipline or foresight to do this.

What do you mean about the insurance plans?  My employer offers what I consider a catastrophic (aka high deductible) plan that's virtually identical to what was on the Obama care market a few years ago, and a traditional PPO plan that's completely unaffordable.  I pay more in insurance premiums every year than my parents did in their entire careers. 

The $1M target for retirement may work now, but it'll be $3-5M 25 years from now at the current rate.  I've got a fair bit in my 401k now, but I expect to be about $2M short when I'm 70. 

[peejman]

14 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I respectfully disagree. I think the majority of middle class workers could do it if they are disciplined. If you have kids it's definitely getting harder but should still be possible. 

Family of 4 on 1 paycheck that I'd argue hasn't changed in 20 years.  I make twice as much now as I did when I started 20 years ago. But everything costs twice as much... food, gas, housing, its all doubled.  So I make the same money now as I did before I had a family, and we spend every penny.   I freely admit I paid a bit too much for my house, though its just your average suburban house. We have old used cars, one of which will have to be replaced in the next few years and I have no idea where that money will come from. My only toy is a $1200 motorcycle that i got after selling the $3500 motorcycle i had before I got married. 

I dont think we'll be on the street, but this notion of living the high life with your feet up by the pool just ain't gonna happen. 

[Defender]

11 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Advice for younger people. Set up an automatic payroll deduction through your bank or Credit Union. The money is automatically taken out of you paycheck and deposited in a savings account every payday.  You never see it, so you don't miss it. You very quickly adjust to living on what you actually bring home. Resist the urge to dip into that account unless absolutely necessary. Start small if need be. Say $20 per paycheck. Gradually increase the amount as income and time increase. I did this through the County Employee's Credit Union when I started working for Bartlett. When I retired I was putting $300 per paycheck in the account. More than once having that money stashed away saved my butt when sudden, unexpected expenses hit. 

This is doable.  Plus as you make more you can increase your contribution.  The real secret is NEVER touching it. I have a few friends that did that and they are sitting pretty now.  I knew better but I didn't do it so i'm not as pretty now, lol.  One thing that irks me though, is that I suspect that SS would come close to working if they didnt tap into it for non SS issues and maybe tightened up on the SS disability for some so called disabled people.  We all know folks that are truly able to work but have managed to convince others that they cannot.

[hipower]

2 hours ago, peejman said:

Family of 4 on 1 paycheck that I'd argue hasn't changed in 20 years.  I make twice as much now as I did when I started 20 years ago. But everything costs twice as much... food, gas, housing, its all doubled.  So I make the same money now as I did before I had a family, and we spend every penny.   I freely admit I paid a bit too much for my house, though its just your average suburban house. We have old used cars, one of which will have to be replaced in the next few years and I have no idea where that money will come from. My only toy is a $1200 motorcycle that i got after selling the $3500 motorcycle i had before I got married. 

I dont think we'll be on the street, but this notion of living the high life with your feet up by the pool just ain't gonna happen. 

We are not destitute, but not living high on the hog these days. I reluctantly admit to spending more and saving less than I had intended in the last 20 years. But the first 10 of those, I had a good job and we managed to pay off the mortgage, and were looking forward to some really good saving years.

But I got brought down several notches with cancer. Let me tell you that the financial side hurt more than the treatments and recovery. We just finished paying off the remainder of those bills last year. Company work plans are good, but when you have years of treatments, especially those that are not covered by your insurance; cancer is Expensive.

Then wife retired a bit earlier than we had planned from some medical issues as well.

So we are 2 oldsters living out our "golden years" on SS and some retirement savings from both our working days. After some  in-law family issues that came up, we had to dip into those accounts a bit to help out. That sort of lowered the expectations of our plans. 

Then 2020 hit and changed the rest of our future plans. Property taxes, insurances, out of pocket med expenses, food, utilities, and gas; they pretty much take both our SS checks.

Anything else comes from retirement funds. Now pre 2020 this wasn't to bad. I figured a standard of living and number of years we could do it living at then current expense levels, with my wife thinking of doing a couple days a week at perhaps a liscensed sitter. She had done that quite a bit before we married and enjoyed the job and the income. We would have a finite number of years at that spending level, and honestly I figured that with our lifestyle, the money would outlast us.

Again...2020 changed that somewhat. Not sure of the safety for her to do that anymore. So we are tightening up a bit. Just like everyone else, and many here.

I'm beginning to part with some of my collection, for the reasons above and some others. I will admit it's been difficult to get started. It's been a lot of years in the making, and not everyone likes what I have been willing to part with.

Barring a great natural disaster, civil insurrection and worldwide collapse; we should be ok, if not better than a large percentage of the population. Now I'm not griping nor bragging, just stating our position. 

I know many here are much better prepared, some close to our level, and some maybe not so well.

I guess I'm attempting to say that preparedness must start when you are younger. Some form a plan for life is needed. I think I half-assed it and we have done fairly well. A competent person could and should have excelled in the economy we've had for the last 40 years. Just my opinion.

Edited September 16, 2020 by hipower

[gregintenn]

2 hours ago, peejman said:

What do you mean about the insurance plans?  My employer offers what I consider a catastrophic (aka high deductible) plan that's virtually identical to what was on the Obama care market a few years ago, and a traditional PPO plan that's completely unaffordable.  I pay more in insurance premiums every year than my parents did in their entire careers. 

The $1M target for retirement may work now, but it'll be $3-5M 25 years from now at the current rate.  I've got a fair bit in my 401k now, but I expect to be about $2M short when I'm 70. 

I think I was wrong on my terminology. What I meant to say was major medical. It was the type plan where you just paid for a doctor visit or er visit and meds. It paid for some major surgery, cancer, etc. That is how medical insurance was supposed to be.

[Erik88]

Hearings stories from people who worked, paid taxes, and did everything society asks of them, only to have their savings wiped out because of medical bills, really bothers me. It's not right and it's not sustainable. 

 

[DaveTN]

52 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Hearings stories from people who worked, paid taxes, and did everything society asks of them, only to have their savings wiped out because of medical bills, really bothers me. It's not right and it's not sustainable. 

 

It’s not right Erik. When I was your age it was a non-issue. Most Companies had paid insurance. Industry was paying the bills. But as “A Global Economy” became the buzz word of the times, and our jobs were shipped overseas, American manufacturers had to cut costs; that was an area where they did it.

Then Obama came along with his plan and assured everyone they would be able to keep their own plans; they would be unaffected. We all knew he was lying when he said it. It drove private employers costs through the roof; many working people lost their plans.

Everyone is looking at a way to have affordable health care. With tax cuts for business and jobs coming back that could possibly happen. Biden has said he will renew the taxes that Trump cut for business. That means less jobs and lower wages to pay the health care bill.

Working stiffs like you can afford health care insurance. You just don’t want to pay the exorbitant rates, because the impact would be so great it would mean less of a house, lower priced vehicles, and fewer vacations. But you will pay it because you know the consequences if you don’t. Poor people who can’t pay it won’t pay it, and they won’t lose everything they have because they don’t have anything. Illegals won’t pay their medical bills either; most can’t. So they are going to need you to pay for them as well as yourself. That’s fair isn’t it? Well I guess that depends on whether you believe in a hand up or a handout.

Now….I know you won’t agree with any of this. Or agree that your generation got you in the jamb you find yourself it. But history will judge you harshly on what you have done. I don’t have to worry about one of my Grandkids asking “Grandpa, how could you have done this to us?” Can you say the same? (That’s rhetorical )

[FUJIMO]

2 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

It’s not right Erik. When I was your age it was a non-issue. Most Companies had paid insurance. Industry was paying the bills. But as “A Global Economy” became the buzz word of the times, and our jobs were shipped overseas, American manufacturers had to cut costs; that was an area where they did it.

Then Obama came along with his plan and assured everyone they would be able to keep their own plans; they would be unaffected. We all knew he was lying when he said it. It drove private employers costs through the roof; many working people lost their plans.

Everyone is looking at a way to have affordable health care. With tax cuts for business and jobs coming back that could possibly happen. Biden has said he will renew the taxes that Trump cut for business. That means less jobs and lower wages to pay the health care bill.

Working stiffs like you can afford health care insurance. You just don’t want to pay the exorbitant rates, because the impact would be so great it would mean less of a house, lower priced vehicles, and fewer vacations. But you will pay it because you know the consequences if you don’t. Poor people who can’t pay it won’t pay it, and they won’t lose everything they have because they don’t have anything. Illegals won’t pay their medical bills either; most can’t. So they are going to need you to pay for them as well as yourself. That’s fair isn’t it? Well I guess that depends on whether you believe in a hand up or a handout.

Now….I know you won’t agree with any of this. Or agree that your generation got you in the jamb you find yourself it. But history will judge you harshly on what you have done. I don’t have to worry about one of my Grandkids asking “Grandpa, how could you have done this to us?” Can you say the same? (That’s rhetorical )

I'm not speaking for Erik but this snow ball of schitt was building long before his generation came along. Playing the system has become a career for many and has since before my generation. Politicians continuing to pass laws and present bills that give handouts to those that don't ( not can't) put into system, healthcare, welfare, etc, eventually breaks the system. This is the result of decades of that. I can give you a half dozen examples of people right now that DRAW from the dole more than a lot of people make in a year.

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

Hearings stories from people who worked, paid taxes, and did everything society asks of them, only to have their savings wiped out because of medical bills, really bothers me. It's not right and it's not sustainable. 

 

I was told the Affordable Care Act would solve this problem. We see how that went.

What is your proposal to fix it? Tax me more?

Edited September 16, 2020 by gregintenn

[peejman]

8 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Working stiffs like you can afford health care insurance. You just don’t want to pay the exorbitant rates, because the impact would be so great it would mean less of a house, lower priced vehicles, and fewer vacations. But you will pay it because you know the consequences if you don’t. Poor people who can’t pay it won’t pay it, and they won’t lose everything they have because they don’t have anything. Illegals won’t pay their medical bills either; most can’t. So they are going to need you to pay for them as well as yourself. That’s fair isn’t it? Well I guess that depends on whether you believe in a hand up or a handout.

I'm no longer permitted to "opt out" of my employer provided insurance plan.  If my wife had a job that offered insurance, I cannot include her on my employer's plan.  We could pick which plan we put the kids on, but a spouse cannot be included if they have an alternative available, no matter what it is. 

And you've highlighted one of the catch-22's that's inevitable  in our system. The few are forced to pay for the many, kinda like only taxing the rich. 

[gregintenn]

7 hours ago, peejman said:

Family of 4 on 1 paycheck that I'd argue hasn't changed in 20 years.  I make twice as much now as I did when I started 20 years ago. But everything costs twice as much... food, gas, housing, its all doubled.  So I make the same money now as I did before I had a family, and we spend every penny.   I freely admit I paid a bit too much for my house, though its just your average suburban house. We have old used cars, one of which will have to be replaced in the next few years and I have no idea where that money will come from. My only toy is a $1200 motorcycle that i got after selling the $3500 motorcycle i had before I got married. 

I dont think we'll be on the street, but this notion of living the high life with your feet up by the pool just ain't gonna happen. 

If that is your attitude, that is your probably where you will end up.

A person’s income, and lot in life for that matter is only guided by a few things. His health, ability, drive, and imagination.

You aren’t tied to your current job. I expect your wife can work. You can also pick up after hours work. There are as many options as your imagination allows. If you are happy where you are, great. If not, find someone who is where you want to be and figure out what they are doing differently from you.

Edited September 16, 2020 by gregintenn

[DaveTN]

4 hours ago, FUJIMO said:

I'm not speaking for Erik but this snow ball of schitt was building long before his generation came along. Playing the system has become a career for many and has since before my generation. Politicians continuing to pass laws and present bills that give handouts to those that don't ( not can't) put into system, healthcare, welfare, etc, eventually breaks the system. This is the result of decades of that. I can give you a half dozen examples of people right now that DRAW from the dole more than a lot of people make in a year.

Oh I agree. Should people that are overweight because of their lifestyle draw disability. No, they should have to go to rehab. But I guess in this time of equality; that won’t happen. But it won’t matter if the wrong people (Biden, Harris, Pelosi, Schumer, AOC, the crew, and the likes) get to call the shots. AOC and her crew thinks everyone should get paid whether they work or not. And if you do work, they want to slap your employer with 12 weeks a year paid vacation. They have no idea how things (money) work.

Biden says anyone that can mine coal can program. So why not put some of these people drawing disability in a soft chair and let them program. I’m joking of course; he’s an idiot.

[Raoul]

kinda like only taxing the rich

if only

[Raoul]

This thing has certainly wandered off the reservation