Rethinking EDC

[hipower]

26 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

I've been considering a change from single stack Shield or Ultra Carry to a higher cap XD9 Compact. CZ75D PCR or something similar.

A Maglite could solve the baton issue & too bad brass knuckles are restricted.

I love my Shield 9, and have had a love/hate relationship with the 43X. So...while digging around the safe, I rediscovered the XD9c and the M&P 9c. They were both highly loved in their day(with me anyway) before being put away. But maybe now is the time to bring them back out.

The G19 is a possibility, although I did drop it for various reasons. But since the tensions of these days seem to worsen, I think the Shield may have to be rethought...strongly.

I have a couple of full size pistols that I'm really fond of...PPQ, HKVP9, and Canik SFX, but all really too large for my comfort. Still, with cooler weather eventually getting here...

Never carried a large flashlight, but again...maybe time to start.  

[Defender]

5 hours ago, hipower said:

I love my Shield 9, and have had a love/hate relationship with the 43X. So...while digging around the safe, I rediscovered the XD9c and the M&P 9c. They were both highly loved in their day(with me anyway) before being put away. But maybe now is the time to bring them back out.

The G19 is a possibility, although I did drop it for various reasons. But since the tensions of these days seem to worsen, I think the Shield may have to be rethought...strongly.

I have a couple of full size pistols that I'm really fond of...PPQ, HKVP9, and Canik SFX, but all really too large for my comfort. Still, with cooler weather eventually getting here...

Never carried a large flashlight, but again...maybe time to start.  

I love my 2 9mm shields.  One is equipped with a crimson trace green laser/flashlight combo, and it is within arms reach when home at night.  But my edc is now a Sig P-365Xl, with a 365sas slide with 15 + I and a spare 15 round mag, with others readily available as needed.  Prob will never need that much amp, but one never knows.

[hipower]

2 hours ago, Defender said:

I love my 2 9mm shields.  One is equipped with a crimson trace green laser/flashlight combo, and it is within arms reach when home at night.  But my edc is now a Sig P-365Xl, with a 365sas slide with 15 + I and a spare 15 round mag, with others readily available as needed.  Prob will never need that much amp, but one never knows.

I actually have no experience with the Sig 365. From all the positive comments about it, perhaps I should look into it.

How would you compare the felt recoil between the 2? I actually got rid of my 43X because it was painful to shoot with the early arthritis in my hands. have any experience with the 43X?

[Garufa]

14 minutes ago, hipower said:

I actually have no experience with the Sig 365. From all the positive comments about it, perhaps I should look into it.

I don’t either other than fondling in gun stores.  If everything had not gone to hell I’d have one.  Feels better in the hand than my Shield, but I’ve never shot one.

[Defender]

14 hours ago, hipower said:

I actually have no experience with the Sig 365. From all the positive comments about it, perhaps I should look into it.

How would you compare the felt recoil between the 2? I actually got rid of my 43X because it was painful to shoot with the early arthritis in my hands. have any experience with the 43X?

Very similar on the regular shield vs the sig.  Guessing the weights are about the  same within an ounce or so, it seems like anyway.   The shield with the laser/flashlight is heavier tho and felt recoil seems a little less on it.  The grip on the Sig is way different than the shield.  I like them both, but the sig for edc  for extra capacity.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Defender

[A.J. Holst]

19 hours ago, TGO David said:

I usually carry a Streamlight ProTac 2-LX light.  The crenulated bezel wouldn't feel good if you got poked with it, really hard, in the face.

 

This is the reason I carry a slightly larger flashlight.

A spare (steel) mag is a good blunt striking tool as well.

Oversized key ring.

Tactical pen, in case I need to sign autographs and always prepared to sign up for fun @Cruel Hand Luke

@Cruel Hand Luke would recommend a spare mag and even a BUG

We just completed a second installment for a church group, I hope we were very successful with context, "it's 10 yards or more, your foreground and background are panicked parishioners, hopefully your layered defense keeps the threat outside."

[Dennis1209]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:17 PM, hipower said:

Very good topic here. I've enjoyed it and been thinking on it as well.

Point 1, I'm not a regular church goer. I know that's my failing. I intend to remedy that with my wife.

Point 2, Dennis, I really liked your post. It's well thought out and asks the right questions. Too bad I don't have all the answers. But you are working in that direction, so I feel you are moving in a fashion you need to be.

Your comment a bout a good CCW vest is very intriguing. I wore a lot of vests back in my high school days, But I was a much slimmer guy back then. lol Anyway I like vests and always like one with the few suits I own. I've seen some carry vests and not cared for most, but it's time to look again.

I would say that one with a built in weapon/mag holder is my take for one, I think it's a bit less "look I got something to hide" than one long enough to cover for IWB/OWB carry.

Just my thought on the matter. I recently ran across an old Galco shoulder rig I got in a`

  buy long ago. Really go me to looking at how I would use it. Being way too round, it of course doesn't fit right. I need to lengthen the belt hooks.

I'm really liking this and a vest as something for me. I'm going to give it a try. With the "anything goes" in clothing these days, I believe and old guy like me can pull it off. Maybe.

Point 3, Batons. I've really wondered about them. Are they legal for civilians? Heard yes and no on them. I like the idea of an expandable stick in my pocket or on a belt. Even in the hands of a novice, these can be a formidable weapon. Very close range though, and I'd think one had better be in good enough shape to not have it taken away on used on oneself. That could be very bad.

So, in my rambling reply...any thoughts or comments? They will always be appreciated.   

 

After looking around, this is what I ended up purchasing. I've tried it out a couple of times now and it suits my intended purpose; to conceal anything I have on my belt. I can now tuck my shirt in and look more presentable and comfortable. It hides my G-26, G-19 and Sig P320's very well for OWB carry [the most comfortable]. This vest is comfortable to wear and well made. It has a 'cheap' holster in the right pocket [I'm left handed]. I can squeeze in my Sig P320 sub-compact and G-26 but, it's tight and prints a bit. As you can see from the Amazon link, it doesn't look tactical at all, and an old man like me wearing it should not drawn any attention or suspicion? My IDPA / USPSA concealment vest screams "gun, gun"  The vest also drapes nicely around my belly.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MP1DYSG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Dennis1209]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:17 PM, hipower said:

Point 1, I'm not a regular church goer. I know that's my failing. I intend to remedy that with my wife.

I wasn't either until I seen the light in 2016.

[TGO David]

1 hour ago, A.J. Holst said:

 

@Cruel Hand Luke would recommend a spare mag and even a BUG

 

I haven't embraced the backup gun yet but I always have two spare mags.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

AJ I think the readers might need some context for the “sign up for fun comment” to make any sense to them. 
 

I was on a cruise about 4 years ago and my wife took a selfie of us on the ship. I was wearing a polo shirt with a Tuff Writer Click Pen clipped in the placket of the shirt. She posted the pic on her Facebook page and our neighbor asked why I had a pen clipped in my shirt. I told my wife to tell him “in case someone wants an autograph “ . One of my wife’s coworkers responded to the post with “so he can sign up for fun at any time”.  That was pretty funny especially if you know me at all. 
 

A good metal bodied pen ( whether it is a Tuff Writer or just a Zebra) that does not look like a “tactical pen” or does not look like some weapon out of Game of Thrones is something you can carry ANYWHERE and if it is clipped to your shirt it is faster to get to than any knife or other impact weapon you might be carrying concealed. Is it as effective as a fixed blade knife or a sap or blackjack? Not really but no one likes getting stabbed in the face with a pen and I can carry a pen in all the places I can’t carry a knife , sap or blackjack. 
 

 

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

17 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I haven't embraced the backup gun yet but I always have two spare mags.

The spare gun is honestly a commitment most people neither want to make nor really need to make in their everyday lives. I strongly recommend it for people who are in a position where they are providing security or are doing something where they don’t have an option to just run away. Think police and church security. If your gun gets damaged then you are now a spectator not a participant.
 

There was a shooting at a Chicago hospital (Mercy Hospital IIRC)  a few years ago where one of the police officers’ gun was struck by a bullet and rendered inoperable. If you are the only armed person responsible for protecting the flock and your gun gets damaged then you can no longer efficiently perform that function. A spare mag won’t fix a broken gun. A spare gun at least gives you the option to continue. 
 

As for most “non sworn officer “ folks going about their normal boring daily lives it is far less likely to ever be needed. In fact most civilian robbery shootings are over (one way or the other) before you’d even have time to access the 2nd gun . The only problem is if you find yourself in that unlikely situation where it is needed then it is likely the only thing that will solve the problem at hand and may be the last thing you’ll ever need. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Dennis1209]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:06 PM, TGO David said:

@Dennis1209 -- I am a member of my church's safety team.  We take an "all hazards" approach, meaning we try to be ready to deal with any manner of emergency.  Be it a medical issue (the most likely scenario), or a weather disaster, a disruptive visitor or attendee, a domestic squabble (especially involving child custody) and of course the aggressive human actor.

Our church carries insurance especially for the safety team and those of us that go armed are held to the same standards as Tennessee's Armed Guard program as far as proficiency with sidearms and regularity of qualification in controlled, administered drills.  We choose to push ourselves far beyond that standard in terms of proficiency.

My weekly "load out" for church has become close to what an undercover police officer might carry, albeit without body armor and handcuffs.  I do carry a handgun, concealed, two spare magazines, a knife, a flashlight, a tourniquet, an Individual First Aid Kit (IFAK) with gunshot / blowout supplies, my smartphone and a two-way radio with earpiece.   This is honestly pretty standard for the members of my team.  Our church is fairly casual, and all of this hides pretty easily under a button-up, untucked fishing / camp shirt and inside the pockets of camp/cargo pants or jeans.

 

The best advice that I can give you is two things:

1.) Your church should have an organized approach to safety and your primary objective regarding bad human actors should be to keep the threat outside the church.

2.) I would contact Ken Alexandrow at Agape Tactical here in the Franklin, TN area.  He and his team do church security consulting and training and he can clear away any myths or misconceptions that you and your church leadership might have heard from well-intentioned but badly informed people in the past.

https://agapetactical.com/services/church-security-planning/

 

Finally, you are right to be asking these questions and to be concerned about the safety of your congregation.  This world will only become increasingly hostile to followers of Jesus Christ.

 

Thank you for your excellent thoughts, advice and resources; it's much appreciated and sound practical advice. If and when the subject comes up again, I'll bring up some of the options you brought up for church consideration. 

A couple of problems are; the vast majority of our congregation is my age or older [>68 years old]. On a good morning pre covid-19, our Sunday morning worship service is about 40 in attendance. Of those in attendance, not all are members or attend every Sunday.

We currently have our heads financially above water, but probably don't have the finances for an insurance rider for church security personnel. In addition, it's doubtful we could get all these 'old men' together for training and dedicated to stick with it? 

After some more though, considering our situation and means. Perhaps a better more viable solution might be; to hire an off duty local officer that might want a part time job to pick up a couple extra bucks, for a few hours during the week? With a police car on the lot, that should also be a deterrent? But then again, shift changes, vacations, appointments, etc. might make that option problematic also? Thanks again.

[Dennis1209]

10 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

The spare gun is honestly a commitment most people neither want to make nor really need to make in their everyday lives. I strongly recommend it for people who are in a position where they are providing security or are doing something where they don’t have an option to just run away. Think police and church security. If your gun gets damaged then you are now a spectator not a participant.
 

There was a shooting at a Chicago hospital (Mercy Hospital IIRC)  a few years ago where one of the police officers’ gun was struck by a bullet and rendered inoperable. If you are the only armed person responsible for protecting the flock and your gun gets damaged then you can no longer efficiently perform that function. A spare mag won’t fix a broken gun. A spare gun at least gives you the option to continue. 
 

As for most “non sworn officer “ folks going about their normal boring daily lives it is far less likely to ever be needed. In fact most civilian robbery shootings are over (one way or the other) before you’d even have time to access the 2nd gun . The only problem is if you find yourself in that unlikely situation where it is needed then it is likely the only thing that will solve the problem at hand and may be the last thing you’ll ever need. 

Morning there Cruel Hand Luke,

I'm going to keep this secular as best I can. We've seen the past church violence and shootings in Tennessee and everywhere. We see the escalating violence and lawlessness going on presently. We see the fabric of our society breaking down, divisions and calling good evil and evil good.

Our government [parts thereof], society and news media are associating 'Christians' as domestic terrorists, haters, homophobic, xenophobic, intolerant filled with hate speech, etc. Are we seeing any indications of Christian targeting and persecution beginning? I see things getting much worse, not better in today's world. It reminds me of how the Nazi's gained power and the history of the Jew's under Hitler. 

The way I see things heading, church attendees might need to be better armed given the climate and attitude we're facing?

[TGO David]

47 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thank you for your excellent thoughts, advice and resources; it's much appreciated and sound practical advice. If and when the subject comes up again, I'll bring up some of the options you brought up for church consideration. 

A couple of problems are; the vast majority of our congregation is my age or older [>68 years old]. On a good morning pre covid-19, our Sunday morning worship service is about 40 in attendance. Of those in attendance, not all are members or attend every Sunday.

 

 

ight make that option problematic also? Thanks again.

Your local LE agencies may have officers that are available for 'extra duty' on the weekends during your services.  Having one there is a good idea.  Asking the LE agency to simply park a cruiser on your property during services might also provide some deterrent unless the potential perpetrator does some reconnaissance and figures out that it's a decoy.

A cheap source of security for your church with such a small congregation will be closing the doors and locking them from inside after the service begins.  Don't be afraid to turn away strangers especially if some simple profiling tells you that their dress, appearance, demeanor doesn't match the baseline of who your congregation is.  Churches want to be welcoming to all, but there is no harm in saying "No Admittance" to someone who sets off that gut instinct that something is wrong.

 

[TGO David]

56 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

The spare gun is honestly a commitment most people neither want to make nor really need to make in their everyday lives. I strongly recommend it for people who are in a position where they are providing security or are doing something where they don’t have an option to just run away. Think police and church security. If your gun gets damaged then you are now a spectator not a participant.

I will have to give some thought to pocket carrying my P365 as a backup. 

[hipower]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

After looking around, this is what I ended up purchasing. I've tried it out a couple of times now and it suits my intended purpose; to conceal anything I have on my belt. I can now tuck my shirt in and look more presentable and comfortable. It hides my G-26, G-19 and Sig P320's very well for OWB carry [the most comfortable]. This vest is comfortable to wear and well made. It has a 'cheap' holster in the right pocket [I'm left handed]. I can squeeze in my Sig P320 sub-compact and G-26 but, it's tight and prints a bit. As you can see from the Amazon link, it doesn't look tactical at all, and an old man like me wearing it should not drawn any attention or suspicion? My IDPA / USPSA concealment vest screams "gun, gun"  The vest also drapes nicely around my belly.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MP1DYSG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The flaw in this vest is the size...no gargantuan available for me. Otherwise it looks ok,

[A.J. Holst]

6 hours ago, TGO David said:

I will have to give some thought to pocket carrying my P365 as a backup. 

I only mentioned a BUG as Monday through Friday, i carry a subcompact in a pocket, very NPE.

Afterhours and everywhere with no metal detectors, I carry a proper sized pistol.

I just keep the micro in my pocket out of habit.

It takes some thought to balance all the stuff on your belt / in your pockets for best access and comfort.

Like a DA snub nose, these little handguns marketed for self defense require practice to shoot well.

[Dennis1209]

34 minutes ago, hipower said:

The flaw in this vest is the size...no gargantuan available for me. Otherwise it looks ok,

That's why I had the wife measure me, and it's true to size. A long time ago I ordered my IDPA vest in XL and it's floppy. As long as I'm not active standing out in the summer sun, heat & humidity; it's not too hot to wear. Wore it to church this morning with my G-19 and spare mag OWB, worked and covered just fine. Now I can comfortably carry everything I may need and distribute the weight to where it's comfortable. Didn't have a good place for my large smartphone, little Surefire flashlight in my pants. 

[chances R]

 A hellcat is a nice option.  Will probably replace my shield eventually.  Also with the mini optics becoming available, they are nice.  I've shot one and really like it.  Additionally, I try to always carry pepper spray.  Much more likely to need less-than-lethal force.  Not every problem needs a hammer, and neither do you want to go hands on if it can be avoided; many bad things can happen at that point.  Even in a closed space, much preferable to bullets.

 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, chances R said:

Additionally, I try to always carry pepper spray.  Much more likely to need less-than-lethal force.  Not every problem needs a hammer, and neither do you want to go hands on if it can be avoided; many bad things can happen at that point.  Even in a closed space, much preferable to bullets.

I agree. You never know what situation will find you and where you'll be. Looking at society today and the twelve people whom may be sitting judging you; what's their definition, morals and idea of what constitutes a "reasonable person"? Probably half of America disagrees with my life long belief of what 'reasonable' is. That one word "reasonable" is probably the biggest legal word if you're facing charges / prosecution. 

My idea of great bodily harm when I see it, will vary greatly from those who can view it frame by frame if it's videoed, studied or bias and lies involved. If the situation warrants and there's time; it's nice to have a second option that's more "reasonable" in my definition, the situation, surroundings and scope of the big picture. 

In the heat and chaos of the moment you're going to react; and have any doubt about whether deadly force is the only option... Pepper spray will reduce criminal - civil liabilities vis-à-vis a handgun, and most likely no long term or permanent injuries or death. Still potential felony assault charges but, a lot less worry and second guessing when you eventually ponder in your mind if you did the right thing? It's a second option when you can't just stand there watching and trying to be a good witness IMO. 

[VolunteerJeff106]

Honestly, I've always been one to tote around my phone--curse of this millennial generation--but I've never really thought of it as a tactical security device until as of late. And like OP mentioned, I've never really carried to go get the mail or take out the trash. But now, I'm finding myself making it part of my routine. I'm not churchgoer--although nothing against any of you who are, I just worship in my own way--so I don't have any real insight into security there. But if I did go, I'd take solace in knowing that some of my fellow brethren there were carrying. Also, having travelled to other countries, I've seen some things that have made me think lately. For instance, in some places around the world, there's armed security for everywhere including laundromats and McDonald's. They're hired out by third-party companies and mainly exist to help give jobs to those to need it. While a job boost would be nice, I think it would do wonders for people's peace of mind if we started doing the same. Not claiming to know all (if, any) of the answers, it's just a thought. 

[Defender]

I EDC so much dang stuff that my pants will fall down, even with a good carry belt, so i had to get a few pairs of quality Perry suspenders.  I got the ones that hook under the belt, as the clip on ones always come loose.  WHen I was in the military, I used a harness  to help hold my web belt up so this works similarly.  My normal wear in the suspenders over a tucked in T shirt with a loose overshirt worn untucked.  This works well with either an IWB or OWB holster. Surprisngly comfortable.  Here's the ones I like: 

https://www.duluthtrading.com/mens-perry-original-y-back-suspenders-50872.html?&srccode=GPSHPMN&chnl=ps_prospect_pla_mn&region=in_region&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqfz6BRD8ARIsAIXQCf0vVcZ-yVixehRHooqnlLLWe4AijaOrcg9BV4jQZerGQn39hEDNMjwaAmCKEALw_wcB