Legality of SBR for concealed carry

[F4iGuy599]

What is the legality of conceal carrying an SBR? Are they considered under the same laws as long guns?

[Ronald_55]

By legality are you referring to the legality of the SBR or of just the concealment of an SBR

[Chucktshoes]

35 minutes ago, F4iGuy599 said:

What is the legality of conceal carrying an SBR? Are they considered under the same laws as long guns?

Yes. They are the same as a long gun. No, they are not covered by your permit. 

[F4iGuy599]

5 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Yes. They are the same as a long gun. No, they are not covered by your permit. 

That was the answer I was looking for.  Thanks! So if you wanted to have it on your person you would need to have it unloaded in a backpack or something.

[Chucktshoes]

7 minutes ago, F4iGuy599 said:

That was the answer I was looking for.  Thanks! So if you wanted to have it on your person you would need to have it unloaded in a backpack or something.

In TN having a firearm and ammo on your person at the same time is considered having a loaded firearm. There are no technicalities for the mag not being inserted like in other states.  

 

If you are wanting to carry a long arm equivalent, you’ll need to have an AR/AK/rifle caliber pistol to meet legal requirements. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Chucktshoes

[F4iGuy599]

21 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

In TN having a firearm and ammo on your person at the same time is considered having a loaded firearm. There are no technicalities for the mag not being inserted like in other states.  

 

If you are wanting to carry a long arm equivalent, you’ll need to have an AR/AK/rifle caliber pistol to meet legal requirements. 

What about a pistol caliber carbine, like an SP5K (MP5K) for example.  If it is in SBR form (folding stock, vertical fore grip) it would not be allowed, but in pistol form (no stock, no VFG) would be allowed for concealment?

[Chucktshoes]

Yes. But remember, if it’s registered as an SBR, it is one regardless of whether or not you have the bits on it. It’s legally had its status changed. Once it gets on the registry, it is what it is unless you have it removed from the registry. 
 

So no work arounds here. If you want to have a loaded firearm on your person (not in a vehicle) in the state of TN for the purposes of self defense (hunting regs are different and not applicable here) it MUST meet the legal definition of a pistol. No way around that. 

[F4iGuy599]

5 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Yes. But remember, if it’s registered as an SBR, it is one regardless of whether or not you have the bits on it. It’s legally had its status changed. Once it gets on the registry, it is what it is unless you have it removed from the registry. 
 

So no work arounds here. If you want to have a loaded firearm on your person (not in a vehicle) in the state of TN for the purposes of self defense (hunting regs are different and not applicable here) it MUST meet the legal definition of a pistol. No way around that. 

That's actually incorrect.  An NFA item is only NFA when configured as such.  This only applies to pistols that are made into SBRs though.  The registry doesn't affect the configuration.  If I want to transport my PCC across state lines, I can simply take the stock (and/or VFG) off of it and it is in pistol configuration.  This has been verified by many with the ATF.  A rifle made into an SBR, can not be converted into a pistol since it was never a pistol.

Edited August 27, 2020 by F4iGuy599

[Capbyrd]

23 minutes ago, F4iGuy599 said:

That's actually incorrect.  An NFA item is only NFA when configured as such.  This only applies to pistols that are made into SBRs though.  The registry doesn't affect the configuration.  If I want to transport my PCC across state lines, I can simply take the stock (and/or VFG) off of it and it is in pistol configuration.  This has been verified by many with the ATF.  A rifle made into an SBR, can not be converted into a pistol since it was never a pistol.

Sounds like you already know the answers.  So why are you asking?  


The real answer is that 0 people that have posted in this thread are lawyers, and less than 0 of us are NFA specific lawyers.   You should seek out advice from someone that can defend you when the BATFE decides you were wrong, or changes their mind because the wind blew or the sun came out. 

 

[F4iGuy599]

Just now, Capbyrd said:

Sounds like you already know the answers.  So why are you asking?  


The real answer is that 0 people that have posted in this thread are lawyers, and less than 0 of us are NFA specific lawyers.   You should seek out advice from someone that can defend you when the BATFE decides you were wrong, or changes their mind because the wind blew or the sun came out. 

 

I was asking specifically about the applicability of SBRs and carry permits.  I'm well aware of the rules of NFA.  I realize that no one here is a lawyer and neither am I.  I just simply asked the question about the carry permit applicability as I know that many people know more than I do about that aspect.  I definitely agree with you on the changing winds of the BATFE especially when it comes to NFA.  This is the reason I opted to Form 1 my SBRs as opposed to using a brace as I feel the BATFE will change their stance on pistol braces at any time and I prefer to stay legal no matter how those rules change.

[Capbyrd]

5 minutes ago, F4iGuy599 said:

I was asking specifically about the applicability of SBRs and carry permits.  I'm well aware of the rules of NFA.  I realize that no one here is a lawyer and neither am I.  I just simply asked the question about the carry permit applicability as I know that many people know more than I do about that aspect.  I definitely agree with you on the changing winds of the BATFE especially when it comes to NFA.  This is the reason I opted to Form 1 my SBRs as opposed to using a brace as I feel the BATFE will change their stance on pistol braces at any time and I prefer to stay legal no matter how those rules change.

That's the reason that I still operate under once a rifle, always a rifle.  I don't trust anything that says you can go back and forth and I don't advise that people do so.   If you have a lawyer that will defend you say go for it, cool.   But I don't and I ain't.  

 

[F4iGuy599]

1 minute ago, Capbyrd said:

That's the reason that I still operate under once a rifle, always a rifle.  I don't trust anything that says you can go back and forth and I don't advise that people do so.   If you have a lawyer that will defend you say go for it, cool.   But I don't and I ain't.  

 

There's definitely a lot of hearsay and I agree about not advising anyone.

[Chucktshoes]

Then at this point I say do what you will, but I would HIGHLY recommend that you do not mix the vagaries of the ATF’s NFA rules with TN’s rules on carry permits. 
 

Carry a handgun that is undoubtedly a handgun where no argument can be made that it’s not a handgun. Not that it’s a handgun because you removed one part or it’s a day that starts with T. 
 

Attempting to walk a fine line of “just legal enough” doesn’t mix well with self defense laws. The game you’re attempting to play here doesn’t ever work out well for the folks without unlimited money for attorneys (the government). 
 

This is coming from a dude who generally is of the opinion of “do whatever you want, just understand that when you break stupid laws, the punishment doesn’t change because the law is stupid.” 
 

So decide what you want to do and put your big  boy pants on because you decided to cross the line, or stay well clear of it because it only takes one politically motivated prosecutor to ruin your life. 
 

Good luck with whatever choice you make. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Chucktshoes

[Capbyrd]

Also, you still got the F4i?  

[DaveTN]

25 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

So decide what you want to do and put your big  boy pants on because you decided to cross the line, or stay well clear of it because it only takes one politically motivated prosecutor to ruin your life. 
 

Good luck with whatever choice you make. 

And I’ll add this, as unpopular as it is.  That politically motivated prosecutor, the Police, and the courts are not bound by ATF opinions; ATF states that on their website. That almost became the case in Sumner County over a PLR-16 confiscated from an HCP holder driving a car that a person in possession of drugs was arrested from.  From the noise I read on the internet at the time, he was arrested, and indicted by a grand jury on a weapons charge. Two years later the case was settled out of court, so there was never a ruling on it. Rumor was they told him they would drop the weapons charge if he got rid of the gun.

[Chucktshoes]

19 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

And I’ll add this, as unpopular as it is.  That politically motivated prosecutor, the Police, and the courts are not bound by ATF opinions; ATF states that on their website. That almost became the case in Sumner County over a PLR-16 confiscated from an HCP holder driving a car that a person in possession of drugs was arrested from.  From the noise I read on the internet at the time, he was arrested, and indicted by a grand jury on a weapons charge. Two years later the case was settled out of court, so there was never a ruling on it. Rumor was they told him they would drop the weapons charge if he got rid of the gun.

Thanks for bringing that one up. I totally forgot about it. So yeah, bad ideas all around. 

[F4iGuy599]

54 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Also, you still got the F4i?  

Unfortunately, no.  I had it about 8 years and the last 2 years it ended up sitting in the garage more than being ridden so I passed it along to the next person to enjoy.  I do miss it sometimes though

Edited August 27, 2020 by F4iGuy599

[F4iGuy599]

30 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

And I’ll add this, as unpopular as it is.  That politically motivated prosecutor, the Police, and the courts are not bound by ATF opinions; ATF states that on their website. That almost became the case in Sumner County over a PLR-16 confiscated from an HCP holder driving a car that a person in possession of drugs was arrested from.  From the noise I read on the internet at the time, he was arrested, and indicted by a grand jury on a weapons charge. Two years later the case was settled out of court, so there was never a ruling on it. Rumor was they told him they would drop the weapons charge if he got rid of the gun.

Definitely makes sense.  This has been more of an exercise for me started out of curiosity and thinking it would be cool to carry my MP5K in the secret service shoulder harness!    Realizing of course that it's completely ridiculous.  My P365 fits the bill for me.

Edited August 27, 2020 by F4iGuy599

[billyblazes]

Although I'm of the mindset that it's better to be legally safe rather than legally sorry, as someone who owns and travels with NFA items I can say from experience a registered and taxed SBR is considered such only when in title 2 configuration.  In title one configuration it is considered just as such.

As an example, my AR-15 SBR is considered a rifle.  If I remove the rifle stock and install a recognized pistol brace, keeping in mind LOP requirements, and remove the VFG, now in that configuration it is just a pistol.  Likewise with my Mossberg Shockwave.  With the birds head grip in place it's a "firearm."  Once I received the tax stamp and I then installed a shotgun stock it became a legal SBS.  If I want to sell either of those items I can configure them as title 1 firearms, write to BATF for them to be removed from the registry, and then sell them without someone waiting to acquire their own tax stamp.

[Alleycat72]

Just open carry it. LOL

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, billyblazes said:

Although I'm of the mindset that it's better to be legally safe rather than legally sorry, as someone who owns and travels with NFA items I can say from experience a registered and taxed SBR is considered such only when in title 2 configuration.  In title one configuration it is considered just as such.

Citation? 

[billyblazes]

14 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Citation? 

I found plenty of posts on various other forums agreeing with what I wrote, but figuring you would want something with a little more authority than another Internet forum lawyer, perhaps this will fit the bill...

The last sentence makes the point.

“Can I travel both within my state and across sate lines with my SBR?

You are free to travel with your SBR within the same state as you reside. When traveling out of state first and foremost understand the laws of the state you are traveling. If local state residents can not posses a SBR then you as a visitor can not either. Before traveling across state lines with your SBR you need to submit a Form 5320.20 to the ATF and wait for approval. This form does not cost anything, but takes 4-8 weeks to get back approved so plan accordingly. Another option is temporally return the firearm to the title I configuration and then you can freely travel across state lines (again know local state laws for title 1 firearms).”

That quote is from https://www.rainierarms.com/blog/atf-form-1-creating-or-manufacturing-your-own-sbr-faq/

[billyblazes]

Took me a while to find it, but straight from BATF. Last page sums it up. 
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

[Oh Shoot]

11 hours ago, billyblazes said:

Took me a while to find it, but straight from BATF. Last page sums it up. 
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

That does not address NFA registered firearms.

The BATF has never been definitive on the subject, but other of their FAQs would suggest that they consider an SBR an original new rifle, so the "first a rifle always a rifle" would apply. They have also stated that the only way to remove a SBR from NFA purview is to configure it as conventional rifle with barrel of 16" or more, or to possess it as receiver only, with no barrel attached at all, or of course to destroy it.

This would suggest that any SBR with short barrel attached would retain its status as NFA firearm, whether it was made from scratch or from a pistol, as using a registered SBR with a pistol brace would simply be using your SBR without a stock.

To my knowledge, no court case has arisen regarding the matter since the Thompson Decision in SCOTUS (which the ruling you cite above is belatedly based on), so YMMV if ever brought to bear on the matter.

Of course, for the most part, firearm carry is a state matter, so TN for example is unlikely to even know the history of the firearm unless they had a reason to check into it,  and even then might not care one way or the other unless they had reason to sit down on you hard and pursue the issue.

One interesting (or not) similar quirk is that federally, it is legal to put a vertical forward grip on a pistol, IF the overall length of the thing is 26" or more, as it then becomes a "firearm". However, since it is no longer a handgun, it would then technically not be legit to carry with a TN permit. And also, if concealed in that configuration , federally the "firearm" becomes an "AOW", the possession of which becomes a federal felony without a stamp for it.

One final quirk is that TCA defines "handgun" as having a barrel of "less than 12", so that could technically figure into certain configurations regarding carry.

- OS

Edited August 30, 2020 by Oh Shoot

[Moped]

On 8/27/2020 at 1:12 PM, F4iGuy599 said:

I was asking specifically about the applicability of SBRs and carry permits.  I'm well aware of the rules of NFA.  I realize that no one here is a lawyer and neither am I.  I just simply asked the question about the carry permit applicability as I know that many people know more than I do about that aspect.  I definitely agree with you on the changing winds of the BATFE especially when it comes to NFA.  This is the reason I opted to Form 1 my SBRs as opposed to using a brace as I feel the BATFE will change their stance on pistol braces at any time and I prefer to stay legal no matter how those rules change.

Welcome to the forum!  We do get a bit contankerous from time to time, but its a good group with lots of great information!