TWRA and Open Fields Doctrine

[Chucktshoes]

I was completely unaware that this was an ongoing case here. I am generally supportive of the job that TWRA does and my few interactions with them have been pleasant and professional. I knew that they could cross onto private property, but was wholly unaware that they were leaving surveillance equipment behind them. 
 

I have serious issues with that. 
 

https://www.agweb.com/article/government-cameras-hidden-private-property-welcome-open-fields

 

Seated at his kitchen table, finishing off the remains of a Saturday breakfast, Hunter Hollingsworth’s world was rocked by footsteps on his front porch and pounding at the door, punctuated by an aggressive order: “Open up or we’ll kick the door down.”

Surrounded on all sides of his house, and the driveway blocked, Hollingsworth was the target of approximately 10 federal and state wildlife officials packing pistols, shotguns and rifles. And what was Hollingsworth’s crime? Drugs, armed robbery, assault, money laundering? Not quite.

Months prior, in 2018, the Tennessee landowner removed a game camera secretly strapped to a tree on his private land by wildlife officials in order to monitor his activity without apparent sanction or probable cause. Repeat: Hollingsworth’s residence was searched by U.S. government and state officials, dressed to the nines in assault gear, seeking to regain possession of a trail camera—the precise camera they had surreptitiously placed on his private acreage after sneaking onto his property at night, loading the camera with active SD and SIM cards, and zip-tying the device roughly 10’ high up a tree—all without a warrant.

[KahrMan]

Damn.  Had no idea TWRA was doing things like that.  It definitely needs to stop.  

[peejman]

Wow. Never heard of "open fields" before.  Trespassing to install surveillance cameras on private property with no due process is legal just because they aren't near a house?  I strongly disagree as well. 

[Omega]

If TWRA wants to mount a camera they better let me know or they may lose them, and I will also submit a bill for cleaning up the litter.  I like to plink on my land, I shoot at things that stand out and do not belong to me. 

[Ronald_55]

I think some game cameras watching entry points would be a good idea if anyone worries about this. Then if TWRA stole or damaged those, they would be committing a crime despite open fields. I wonder if in either of those cases TWRA cut or circumvented locks on gates to get into the land. Would be a shame if someone camped out below where the camera was placed after a limb fell over to cover their view. Maybe placed a camera of their own as backup documentation. 

The article is right about technology our running the laws. If the only cameras they had access to required them to go collect the SD card each time they wanted the pictures, it would be much harder to get away with. Cell enabled cameras means even if you damage the camera any pictures up until the last seconds will be transmitted.

Of course in both cases there was an issue with breaking the law on the owner's (or family) part. First the son and friends had baited does in the past and been charged. Second was charged with dove baiting based on the camera footage it seems. That takes a lot away from their case in my eyes. TWRA should not be on their property, but if, at least in the second case, he had not baited dove, there would have been little TWRA could have stuck him with. I feel the theft of property charge would have been dismissed easily if it took them months to come storm your house to get it. 

One lesson leaned though. When removing trail cameras you did not put up, do it from out of line of sight of the lens. Preferably when you have not be filmed close to it recently. 

 

[Patrick Henry]

Could this be viewed at taking one’s property without compensation?  One could argue they are no longer free to use their property without fear and they cannot log or even cut the tree down with damaging gov property. 

[Chucktshoes]

33 minutes ago, Omega said:

If TWRA wants to mount a camera they better let me know or they may lose them, and I will also submit a bill for cleaning up the litter.  I like to plink on my land, I shoot at things that stand out and do not belong to me. 

“Well Your Honor, if they didn’t want their sh*t shot they shouldn’t have left it on the property of a man who likes to shoot sh*t.“

[Ronald_55]

6 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

“Well Your Honor, if they didn’t want their sh*t shot they shouldn’t have left it on the property of a man who likes to shoot sh*t.“

"What happened?"

"Someone just double tapped our drone camera , sir."

[nightrunner]

26 minutes ago, Patrick Henry said:

Could this be viewed at taking one’s property without compensation?  One could argue they are no longer free to use their property without fear and they cannot log or even cut the tree down with damaging gov property. 

Civil seizure happens all day every day.

This pisses me off just as much as that does.

[nightrunner]

22 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

“Well Your Honor, if they didn’t want their sh*t shot they shouldn’t have left it on the property of a man who likes to shoot sh*t.“

We need your crow of judgement to preside over this case.

[Grayfox54]

I knew TWRA officers had powers and authorities beyond regular LEOs, but DAYYUM!  I had no idea!    Legal or not, this just ain't right. One should have the right to complete privacy on their own land. At the very least a court order should be required to set up surveillance on private property. 

OTOH, Ronald makes a good point. In both cases the law had been broken before. In my experience, people who break game laws tend to make a habit of it. But still, a minimum of a court order should be required. 

 

[Dirtshooter]

I have permission to hunt some land near my house. A neighbor was found to have a deer feeder in his back yard that just happened to attract some turkeys. Another neighbor called the TWRA and I understand they now have camera's up near this guys place. So it may be an interesting deer season this year. I don't get the fact they needed 10 Federal and state guys to show up, sounds a little like intimidation tactics, similar to the Roger Stone fiasco.

[Garufa]

27 minutes ago, Dirtshooter said:

I don't get the fact they needed 10 Federal and state guys to show up, sounds a little like intimidation tactics, similar to the Roger Stone fiasco.

If The Man knows you own a gun they’re going to come in strong.  

[Alleycat72]

Put up a fence around your property. Put a gate on your driveway. Put no trespassing signs up.

[Ronald_55]

14 minutes ago, alleycat72 said:

Put up a fence around your property. Put a gate on your driveway. Put no trespassing signs up.

Didn't seem to matter in these cases.

[Garufa]

25 minutes ago, alleycat72 said:

Put up a fence around your property. Put a gate on your driveway. Put no trespassing signs up.

...and that will not stop them if they want to put up cameras. 

[Alleycat72]

13 minutes ago, Garufa said:

...and that will not stop them if they want to put up cameras. 

It has screwed them in court. 

[KahrMan]

55 minutes ago, alleycat72 said:

It has screwed them in court. 

Courts ruled it was legal for them to do it. 

[Alleycat72]

55 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

Courts ruled it was legal for them to do it. 

Depends on curtilage.

Edited August 12, 2020 by alleycat72

[Omega]

8 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

I knew TWRA officers had powers and authorities beyond regular LEOs, but DAYYUM!  I had no idea!    Legal or not, this just ain't right. One should have the right to complete privacy on their own land. At the very least a court order should be required to set up surveillance on private property. 

OTOH, Ronald makes a good point. In both cases the law had been broken before. In my experience, people who break game laws tend to make a habit of it. But still, a minimum of a court order should be required. 

 

Here is the thing, IMO, if they suspected they were breaking the law, which apparently they were, then they should have requested a court order to place the cameras, just like a wire tap.  I'm of the opinion that game wardens should have the same restrictions as regular LEO, if they want the powers, then the restrictions come with it.  

[peejman]

8 hours ago, Omega said:

Here is the thing, IMO, if they suspected they were breaking the law, which apparently they were, then they should have requested a court order to place the cameras, just like a wire tap.  I'm of the opinion that game wardens should have the same restrictions as regular LEO, if they want the powers, then the restrictions come with it.  

Exactly.

Just like the original red flag laws, there's no due process here. TWRA is judge, jury, and executioner. That's not how government is supposed to work, we have separation of powers for a reason. 

And if TWRA makes use of this loophole in the law, how many other alphabet agencies do it too?  Patriot Act sound familiar?  

[DaveTN]

20 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I was completely unaware that this was an ongoing case here. I am generally supportive of the job that TWRA does and my few interactions with them have been pleasant and professional. I knew that they could cross onto private property, but was wholly unaware that they were leaving surveillance equipment behind them. 

I have serious issues with that. 

This can be added to our list of things that need to change with Law Enforcement. I can’t comment on “Open Fields” as I have never heard of it or researched it. But I do know, where I was, Conservation Officers had far more leeway in entering private property without a warrant than we had as Police Officers.  They also had different laws on the transportation of firearms under conservation laws.

Most Conservation Officers deal with suspects where weapons are involved daily. I would think most would simply knock on the door and asked where the cameras are. I don’t understand the need for surrounding the house with SWAT team tactics. I can only guess.

I also don’t understand searching the house without a warrant. Exigent circumstances wouldn’t cover what they did; they obviously planned this for a while.

When you are caught dirty; you are caught dirty. Both TRWA and the state AG is covering this up. Of course they don’t want to make statements; they are going to be sued. But that’s not how a legit Law Enforcement agency operates. That’s what we see going on now with Police Departments. Rioting and burning businesses has caused them to be much quicker to release info, make statements and even arrest Officers. I guess since they know hunters won’t do that; so they don’t need to be honest and forthright.

Whoever at TWRA started or approved this needs to step up and take responsibility. That’s what honest leaders do when mistakes have been made.

[Chucktshoes]

https://ij.org/press-release/tennessee-property-owners-score-early-win-in-lawsuit-against-warrantless-trespassing-surveillance-on-private-land/

Benton county judge denied TWRA motion to dismiss. 

[DaveTN]

6 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

Benton county judge denied TWRA motion to dismiss. 

Good. 

[Dirtshooter]

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. All they had to do was get a judge to get them a warrant to install camera's and/or search the premises. I have a big problem with the fact that lots of game and fish departments in different states think they can go anywhere at anytime. I have mixed feelings about the fact they can put a dummy deer, turkey or elk out there hoping someone will shoot it. I really look on that as bordering on entrapment. The TWRA is like lots of LEO, there are some of their guys that push the limit a little too far. You can get a lot more flies with sugar than with vinegar.