weird advice from a women's CCP course

[JunkiCosmonaut]

I taught my girlfriend to shoot my bedside shotgun (mossberg 500 persuader) and she's always hated it for the kick, which I get, shes pretty small so it's understandable. Shes able to hit a silhouette at 15 yards pretty quick and consistently which is my main concern, so I always leave it loaded in the same corner by the bed especially when i'm not home. She took a women's CCP course in seveirville this weekend (july 12) and she came home with new novel advice, "the instructor said that its easier for women to just shoot a shotgun from the hip than it is to try and aim it because they are too weak for the kick". The instructor was a ~65ish year old woman, whom i assume teaches at this range often and I haven't met her so I can't say anything about her background, but this has to be some pretty dumb advice regardless. I spent maybe 30 minutes (in a near rant) trying to explain how that's not going to work out for her quite as well as she thinks it is and how point shooting only seems to work if your name is Taran Butler. She took the class with her mom and sister so at the next dinner night im gonna have to get some clarification, but she swears that the instructor said that women should shoot a shotgun from the hip with the reasoning that it will help you avoid the "kick". I'm not even gonna go into how that makes 0.00 sense, but either way, that's my rant. 

[DaveTN]

Shooting from the hip doesn’t make much sense. If she can’t shoot a shotgun from the shoulder; she has the wrong weapon, or at least the wrong gauge.

There is a lot of controversy over pellet size in a home defense load. 00 is more common than 000, both work fine if a person can handle them. I’ve seen people make an argument for smaller shot, because apparently they are worried about shooting through a wall. But most any self defense round, shotgun, handgun or rifle will go though drywall.

Point instinct shooting is how I train with a handgun, using sights is target shooting. You may not have the time or lighting condition to use sights. But again, there are plenty of people that don’t agree with that.

She needs to first get time and experience with different weapons and then do what is comfortable for her, and that allows her to put the rounds on target.

A group of us went shooting a couple of weeks ago. My daughter can outshoot us all. 

[owejia]

Good luck with trying to win that argument, only way is to let your girl friend shoot from the hip and see what happens!!!

[MKALDRICH]

That is ridiculous I completely agree with @DaveTN that it’s the wrong gun if you can’t use the sights. This is coming from an active female shooter who has had to put down 20+ different guns cause they don’t work for one reason or another. If she can confidently shoot the gun from the shoulder and even if the recoil is a lot but she can handle it I don’t see a problem. But if she thinks it is that big of a problem then there are other guns... To win this debate rather than print out our comments and give a PowerPoint at a family dinner I would buy them a training session with a younger female instructor who will set the record straight.

[RED333]

Go into the talk with you family with some good info. I have a Recoil-reducing stock on one of my 12s, it works well. You can invest in Reduced Recoil Ammo. Here is a good read.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/taming-12-gauge-shotgun-recoil-management/

 

[DaveTN]

12 minutes ago, MKALDRICH said:

I would buy them a training session with a younger female instructor who will set the record straight.

[JunkiCosmonaut]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Shooting from the hip doesn’t make much sense. If she can’t shoot a shotgun from the shoulder; she has the wrong weapon, or at least the wrong gauge.

There is a lot of controversy over pellet size in a home defense load. 00 is more common than 000, both work fine if a person can handle them. I’ve seen people make an argument for smaller shot, because apparently they are worried about shooting through a wall. But most any self defense round, shotgun, handgun or rifle will go though drywall.

Point instinct shooting is how I train with a handgun, using sights is target shooting. You may not have the time or lighting condition to use sights. But again, there are plenty of people that don’t agree with that.

She needs to first get time and experience with different weapons and then do what is comfortable for her, and that allows her to put the rounds on target.

A group of us went shooting a couple of weeks ago. My daughter can outshoot us all. 

I completely agree, she has very little experience with firearms in general, and hasn't been around them really until we got together about a year ago, but shes recently had a big bloom in interest. I'm trying to get her to try different guns, I think a 20 gauge might be better, or she can shoot my ar-15 or maybe even a pistol caliber carbine might be a good option. I have a ton of handguns, but shes just not really developed the fundamentals, so shes not confident with a handgun YET and I get that. But we're working on it. 

[JunkiCosmonaut]

2 hours ago, MKALDRICH said:

That is ridiculous I completely agree with @DaveTN that it’s the wrong gun if you can’t use the sights. This is coming from an active female shooter who has had to put down 20+ different guns cause they don’t work for one reason or another. If she can confidently shoot the gun from the shoulder and even if the recoil is a lot but she can handle it I don’t see a problem. But if she thinks it is that big of a problem then there are other guns... To win this debate rather than print out our comments and give a PowerPoint at a family dinner I would buy them a training session with a younger female instructor who will set the record straight.

The thing is she can use the sights, she just hates the recoil, which I get. But, I only had the one shotgun and her ability to shoot a handgun under stress is still in development. (But shes getting there and I'm super proud of her!). I'm trying to get her to try some alternatives. So a solution  is in the works. I'm looking to get her her own stuff handgun, shotgun, rifle..etc. we didn't really have a debate so much that I just set the record straight with some facts and examples. She agreed it was silly after she really thought about it.

[The Big Guy]

2 minutes ago, Mseals22 said:

The thing is she can use the sights, she just hates the recoil, which I get. But, I only had the one shotgun and her ability to shoot a handgun under stress is still in development. (But shes getting there and I'm super proud of her!). I'm trying to get her to try some alternatives. So a solution  is in the works. I'm looking to get her her own stuff handgun, shotgun, rifle..etc. we didn't really have a debate so much that I just set the record straight with some facts and examples. She agreed it was silly after she really thought about it.

She'd probably be better served with a scary looking, evil black rifle. Low recoil, tons of ammo for disposal, extreme damage at close range. 

[The Big Guy]

A 16" rifle with an aimpoint, or similar long battery life red dot. Train her to flip the safety off and point the dot at soon to be dead stuff. Boom. Done.

It would be a bonus if she got bit by the handgun bug and gave you a run for your money at an IDPA match. 

[JunkiCosmonaut]

2 minutes ago, crake said:

She'd probably be better served with a scary looking, evil black rifle. Low recoil, tons of ammo for disposal, extreme damage at close range. 

Oh that's coming too! She found out she can have colors so now she wants one

[hipower]

4 minutes ago, Mseals22 said:

Oh that's coming too! She found out she can have colors so now she wants one

[JunkiCosmonaut]

Just now, crake said:

A 16" rifle with an aimpoint, or similar long battery life red dot. Train her to flip the safety off and point the dot at soon to be dead stuff. Boom. Done.

It would be a bonus if she got bit by the handgun bug and gave you a run for your money at an IDPA match. 

Were going to try put handguns at point blank actually. She wants to shoot handguns right now so we're gonna go to shoot point blank and try a bunch out. 

[The Big Guy]

1 hour ago, Mseals22 said:

Were going to try put handguns at point blank actually. She wants to shoot handguns right now so we're gonna go to shoot point blank and try a bunch out. 

Great idea!

You know, you could always set her up with a handgun that has a red dot. When you show up to the range with it you could say things like "I'm testing it for her", "I wanna make sure it's sighted in", "It's not my red dot". lol.

[JunkiCosmonaut]

12 minutes ago, crake said:

You know, you could always set her up with a handgun that has a red dot. When you show up to the range with it you could say things like "I'm testing it for her", "I wanna make sure it's sighted in", "It's not my red dot". lol.

red dots are the big gai, you know this, I know this, and if you keep on with this unhealthy obsession with carry optics then we are gonna have to stage an intervention. 

[The Big Guy]

5 minutes ago, Mseals22 said:

red dots are the big gai, you know this, I know this, and if you keep on with this unhealthy obsession with carry optics then we are gonna have to stage an intervention. 

Stop pretending like I am going to get one before you. I'm an iron-sights purist. You know this. You wanna bang paper and steel with the boys on our squad... with a red dot. I know it. You know. The squad knows it. lol.

[JunkiCosmonaut]

Picture of @crake after he finally gets his cyborg eye implants in 2055 because the red dot was not enough. 

[JunkiCosmonaut]

1 minute ago, crake said:

Stop pretending like I am going to get one before you. I'm an iron-sights purist. You know this. You wanna bang paper and steel with the boys on our squad... with a red dot. I know it. You know. The squad knows it. lol.

No U. you're gonna get a stoccato and slap a giant red dot on there and you and byrl  and john are gonna whisper sweet nothings to each other about how you could never go back to irons. I take that back, you're gonna get a Springfield because Grip Zone. 

[The Big Guy]

48 minutes ago, Mseals22 said:

No U. you're gonna get a stoccato and slap a giant red dot on there and you and byrl  and john are gonna whisper sweet nothings to each other about how you could never go back to irons. I take that back, you're gonna get a Springfield because Grip Zone. 

Nope. CZ fan boi 4 lyfe

[btq96r]

Does this Mossberg 500 have a stock?  Without a stock, I can see the allure of shooting from the hip with certain loads. 

[DWARREN123]

Take her to a range and have her try both ways and see which works for her.

[JunkiCosmonaut]

4 hours ago, btq96r said:

Does this Mossberg 500 have a stock?  Without a stock, I can see the allure of shooting from the hip with certain loads. 

It's got a stock.

[Garufa]

22 minutes ago, Mseals22 said:

It's got a stock.

Stock or not is irrelevant.  If she shoots it from the hip don’t stand behind her or you might be 3D printing something for yourself.

A permit “trainer” suggesting someone fire a shotgun from the hip is about the stupidest thing I’ve heard in a...today.

[TomInMN]

Other questions that come to mind: What other advice did this instructor give? Was the rest of it better than the advice in question, or worse?

Might be worth your girlfriend and the others taking a class from a different instructor...

[jgradyc]

Slightly off topic, but I wouldn't want a small woman's primary home defense weapon to be a 12 ga shotgun. It's just too much to think about to get off a second shot unless you practice, practice, practice, and if you hate the recoil, you're not going to practice.

A better choice for a small woman would be a short carbine in 9mm or 40 cal.  My bedside long gun is a Kel Tec Sub 2000 that takes Glock 40 cal mags.