Mauser 98 Sporter

[Handsome Rob]

If anyone has any idea how to age or identify my latest acquisition, i'd really appreciate the help. 

All I know is that it's a commercial production on a '98 action in 9x57. It's insanely light (maaaaaybe 6lb) half octagon, half round barrel & the stock is veneer thin around the barrel! 

[Quavodus]

I don't know. I'd say early 1900's maybe. Nice.

[Sunfish]

It looks like it was set up for a double claw mount at one time. What does it say on the side rail? Kar 98? I have seen a few rounds laying around over the years for these. Kynoch 9x57. It could be a small ring action. It was put together between the wars as stated above.  

[Handsome Rob]

I agree on the claw mount. The front dovetail has been filled in, very professionally. The rear screw holes look to be 2 different sizes & don't look to be perfectly aligned to the bore. Not that i'm planning on re-mounting an optic anyway. 

When you say

"What does it say on the side rail?" 

What do you mean by side rail. 

[Sunfish]

Where the cut out is on the receiver

[Handsome Rob]

Gotcha.

Im going to pull it out of the stock today & get some detailed photos of all the markings, so I'll have a better idea then. 

Nothing is visible above the wood on the action, other than the load data (2.75grams, Rifle flake powder ((G.B.P))

[Handsome Rob]

I think that the original loaf proof data puts it 1888 to 1901, but the action dimensions narrow that to post 1898. If i'm correct, that places it very tidily into a 3 year range, but I have no clue as to the maker or when it was converted from 7.92 to 9mm

Edited June 9, 2020 by Handsome Rob

[Sunfish]

Does it say GEW 98 or ? It is not a Commission 88. There could be some Imperial markings on the bottom of the receiver or Bolt somewhere.  

[Handsome Rob]

Here you go. This is everything I can find.....

The 5167 serial number is matched throughout all the action parts, barrel & steel buttplate, although oddly not on the bottom metal/trigger parts. 

[Handsome Rob]

The barrel measures exactly 615mm from bolt face to muzzle (a gnat's over 24-1/4") & the bore slugged at exactly .358 in the grooves, not the more typically European .355-.356, making me wonder if it could possibly have been rebored over here. 

[Handsome Rob]

I'm wondering if the original Waffen marking might have been on top of the front ring. They would've been milled off when the dovetail was cut. 

[TomInMN]

Is it possible this was a commercial example from its beginning? A military action could've been converted to double-set triggers, but maybe it started out that way?

[Handsome Rob]

Possibly, but really don't know. The 7,8mm is the original bore size & the crown over N denotes that it's been proved for nitro powder & that's the limit of my knowledge! 

The "Schüler" signature could be a makers mark, or owners signature.  I have no clue. 

[gregintenn]

I have little information for you, but that appears to pe a pretty high quality piece.

[Sunfish]

It's a WW1 Imperial that was re barreled and proofed commercial N. Those Gew 98's had a straight bolt so it was bent or forged over and ground.  The reason they made them in different chamberings than 8 mm was many countries didn't allow civilians to own anything in a military caliber

[rodteague]

24 minutes ago, Sunfish said:

It's a WW1 Imperial that was re barreled and proofed commercial N. Those Gew 98's had a straight bolt so it was bent or forged over and ground.  The reason they made them in different chamberings than 8 mm was many countries didn't allow civilians to own anything in a military caliber

This ^^^  It also appeared to me..... to be a post WWI conversion. IIRC Imperial(WWI) and  Nazi(WWII) markings on the side and top of the front receiver ring were generally removed (ground off) in order to export to other european countries; and to make them legal to own in post war Germany. Lot's of records were destroyed by Allied and Russian forces post WWII and unfortunately, many pre/post WWI military and commercial Mauser records were lost. If it had been a factory commercial German Mauser; the "Mauser" logo would have been stamped on top of the front ring. Commercial variants were tolerated and generally left in "virgin" state; but not always. Because there is nothing visible stamped on the top of the ring and on the left side of the receiver; it's a safe bet you have "probable" post WWI conversion. Looking thru a copy of "The Mauser Bolt Actions ....M91-M98... A Shop Manual" By Jerry Kuhnhausen, it dose appear to be a M98. 

All that being said, I have one question; Is the floor plate "hinged"? If it is hinged, according to Jerry Kuhnhausen, early commercial M98 Orberndorf sporters could be had with adjustable double set triggers, and the sporters had hinged floor plates. In your first pic, it appears the floor plate is not hinged; but it is difficult to determine. Hinged, could be a commercial Orberndorf sporter; not hinged, a post war M98 sporter conversion. That's all I've got. Hope this helps  

Regards

Rod 

[Handsome Rob]

Thanks Rod. It's not a hinged plate, just the standard sliding model. 

Im in deep conversation with a gent on 24hr Campfire who dated it to originally built between 1899 & 1901. The barrel is original to the action, but at some point has been rebored. The fact that it has a 'crown over N' proof, along with the plain crown, is suggesting a rebore. A fresh barrel would only have the one stamp, unless it was also rebored & that wouldn't make sense. Also, the matched 4 digit serial. 

There isn't any way to determine the rebore date, other than the second proof mark is post 1950 (I believe) & it would have to have been proofed before resale or return to the customer. 

It seems, from all this, that it was exported from Germany post 1950. The original maker's mark & factory stamp, as previously mentioned, have been removed when the dovetail was cut in the front ring. 

Im trying to get hold of a gent from the Nitro Express forum who seems to hold the key to understanding the random letter & number stamps under the receiver. He's in central Germany somewhere, in his late 70s & i'm guessing it's some big muck-a-muck in the Mauser collecting circles. Im going here can tell me which particular factory it came from. It doesn't really matter, at this point. I know everything I really need to (the fact that there's a 1:3 chance that it's pre-20th century just makes me giddy all over! ) but it would be nice to uncover at least the important bullet points of its history. 

Then imma go whack an elk with it. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Handsome Rob

[rodteague]

Take all of it with a grain of salt; and beware, there are a lot of fakes. A barrel can be stamped to match a receiver at a later date; as well as proof marks. When I first got into mausers, there was a lot of that going on with M98's and K98's; as well as 03 Springfield's. Most were intentional chicanery and some, unintentionally misleading. Lot's of receivers were recycled post war by Mauser and given new life in the commercial market with matching serial numbers. Could have also been done by a smaller export company or a gunsmith; your rebore seems to suggest one of the scenario's. At the very least it may have started as an original commercial mauser as you suspect, but has received embellishments over the years. It's one of the reasons I honed in on the Swedish Mausers. The Swedes were very meticulous in the mfg of their rifles and subsequent, freakishly straight S/N's and proof marks. It's really hard to fake a Swede. All that aside it's a fine looking curio and relic, and tells a great story regarding gun ownership in post war Germany and Europe. What better historical document than an actual rifle from that era. FWIW, the truth is, the Elk won't know the difference, and that's all that really matters Good luck, I hope you get it figured out.

Best Regards 

Rod

Edited June 10, 2020 by rodteague

[Handsome Rob]

I received some further info this morning (Kudae from the Nitro Express forums; an actual German, Mauser historian! In Germany!! )

 

"This rifle was proofed at the Suhl proofhouse in 1912 as the bore/land (notgroove/bullet!)diameter is marked as 7.8 mm, but the service load info is still given as 2.75 gramm smokeless rifle powder and a steel jacketed bullet. The CROWN + crown/N marks indicate proof using the 4000 atm special proof powder, according to the proof rule of July 23, 1893. The rifle was proofed only once for the 8x57 I cartridge. As it is rebored to 9x57, it lacks the mandatory reproof . So the reboring was probably done about 1920, when the „military“ 8x57 was prohibited and proofhouses were not operating due to revolutionary turmoil.
As the worker’s marks under the receiver show, the action is a Gewehr 98 one of military production, smuggled out of the Erfurt arsenal. A „grey market“ action, sometimes encountered at that time.
The crudely scratched name on the barrel is probably of a former owner. No reputable gunmaker would have signed his gun with such scribbling.
The rifle was once mounted with claw mounts. As the scope was not „liberated“ too in 1945, the now useless bases were removed and the front base dovetail in the receiver ring filled in. "

 

[Handsome Rob]

So basically, from a combination of the info I've researched & received: It was built at the Oberndorf munitions plant sometime after 1898 & before 1901 where it languished until it was sent to the Suhl proof house in 1912 (common for rifles to be bulk manufactured, then batch proofed as needed)  From the it was shipped to the arsenal in Erfurt, where some enterprising young nerk decided he needed it more than the military & nicked it! Sometime after the Great War,  during Germany's 'reconstruction' effort, said nerk (unlikely, due to being probably incredibly dead) or someone else had it bored out to 9mm, to avoid the military caliber ban, but it somehow managed to evade being re-proofed (the equivalent nowadays of owning a suppressor without a stamp. Very slap-on-the-wristy) Time passed, it passed through the hands of one Karl or his brother Kurt Schüler, deer were probably killed & then a really keen 19 year old (probably) American GI decided to throw it in his sea bag & bring it here! God only knows who he was, or where it came in, but it ended up in Alaska, where my old mate Bob picked it up, carried it to Africa, killed at least a lion (and lord only knows what else) and then it ended up in my sticky mitts!

It's so cool I can't hardly stand it!

[Garufa]

Mind blown. Glad it’s your rifle so I never need to explain that to someone, lol.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Garufa

[Handsome Rob]

And if you've learned nothing else from all this, it's that Robbie spends faaaaar too much time on the internet!

[TomInMN]

1 hour ago, Handsome Rob said:

And if you've learned nothing else from all this, it's that Robbie spends faaaaar too much time on the internet!

Maybe so, but he's HANDSOME!!

[gregintenn]

You just don’t get that kind of cool factor from a gun on the rack at WalMart. That is why I am a fan of old guns.

[Quavodus]

39 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

You just don’t get that kind of cool factor from a gun on the rack at WalMart. That is why I am a fan of old guns.

Yep, same here.