Any Lawncare/Landscapers here?

[hlb14]

I'm curious,  what rate do you charge per man hour?

[Danger Rane]

That’s a very specific question, for a topic with so many variables. The two most important questions that might help narrow it down is what area and what type of work specifically. There can be a big difference between cutting grass vs putting in mulch and planting trees.

[hlb14]

 Mowing, trimming and blowing in the Murfreesboro and surrounding areas. 

[Patton]

Most will aim for $35-40 per man hour labor for mow, trim, and blow.  That is assuming it’s a legitimate business. Understand that may vary depending on location to other jobs and or difficulty of lawn. I once had a lawn in the middle of three other stops that it just made sense to do it for the same $50 as the other three despite it being bigger; it just worked logistically. I had a much smaller lawn across town that would have cost me to mow for $50. You will make the most money off of other projects they ask you to do.  

 

Why you ask?

 

[hlb14]

6 hours ago, Patton said:

Why you ask?

 

I'm trying to break into the business. Same question was asked by someone on a national forum and answers varied widely.  

[Patton]

4 hours ago, hlb14 said:

I'm trying to break into the business. Same question was asked by someone on a national forum and answers varied widely.  

I will not talk you out of it. I would do it again before I starved. Some things you probably haven’t thought about. It’s hard to collect payments out of people, and when they pay late it messes up your whole scheduling.  If I collected every dime I was ever owed I would still be in business. Three or four days of rain will get you weeks behind with people saying if you can’t get here today I will get someone else. Probably the third biggest gripe is broken and stolen equipment.  I have pulled up on a lawn and had my blower missing;  I have no clue to this day what happened to it. I have been in the back corner of a huge lawn and had my front caster on the walk behind break; just a fluke. Talk about a messed up day. Some customers want one company to do every task and it isn’t worth you getting licensed for pesticides, buying every piece of equipment for pruning, and learning about irrigation. 

The things you have probably thought about and are an issue. People undercutting you.  My average lawn was probably $40 but the guy next door will do it for $30 and he probably can and make money too. People pop up every day and do it for a year pricing everything at $30. They last a year, exhaust themselves, wear out their equipment, and two new under-cutters pop up to replace them. Everyone wants to know why you want $40, but they won’t listen to their own gripes about the guy that don’t care doing it for $30. Don’t anticipate finding good help.  People making $10 per hour without any benefits will leave you high and dry. I drove across town to pick a guy up to work for the day and he said, “I will not have to work this week because my brother’s student loan check came in.”

 

However, I have had days where everything went right and made money. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Patton

[peejman]

Have friends or neighbors get quotes from existing services. Compare them to what you'd charge for the same work.  

[Patton]

30 minutes ago, peejman said:

Have friends or neighbors get quotes from existing services. Compare them to what you'd charge for the same work.  

Always a good idea. I have found many companies or individuals will price something incorrectly and then just stop going or stop doing quality work hoping the customer goes away.  My in-laws have experienced this.  They had a very good reputable guy who started doing it after I told them I didn't want any part of it anymore. I recommended him.  They let him go to save $10 a cut and the new guy just stopped showing up except for when he was hurting for money. The customers he acquired after them he quoted them more and will now their yards no matter what. You honestly get what you pay for.

It sounds strange but most people understand this. I found that when pricing a yard most people were ok letting you price it for a one time service to get an accurate  feel for what it will take.  Example: John Doe stops me and asks what it would cost. I would walk around and ask what they were paying their last guy and who it was. There were red flags I looked for.  If company abc was doing it, and they aren’t happy, I know me and this customer will never work out.  If company xyz is mowing it they are looking for the absolute cheapest price. I will tell the customer I am happy to cut it today for the $60 he was paying his last guy if I believe it’s a reasonable price.  If I think I can save him some money I will know after the first cut.  Truthfully, five or even ten dollars isn’t going to make or break anything. I have found the ones you price too cheap you will pay dearly for. They will be the first to owe you for several months or move and not pay you. Those that you mess up and price a little too high are hardly never late and never seem to bug you or blame you for something you didn’t do. 

[Patton]

Once again, I wouldn’t talk anyone out of it.  I did it because I grew up around it and studied horticulture in school.   My dad did it and actually still does turf grass treatments. If you have a low stress job making more then $35k a year with benefits I would not mow full-time. For some people it makes sense. Like if they really want a justification to have a nice truck and they already need a good commercial mower for their own lawn. If I didn’t have a desire for the truck or already need a 48 or 60 inch mower for my own lawn I would deliver pizzas and make more money. 

Speaking of which get ready for the 18 or 19 yo something who’s mommy and daddy bought them a new truck and new equipment to go out and compete with you. You know, the store bought rednecks. He gets to keep all the earnings for profit. These guys last two summers and get a real job or disappear.

[ReeferMac]

Great advice Patton!

I did some landscaping on the side for a few years back when I lived in NY and was having trouble with regular employment. Was a great way to kick a few extra bucks into the budget, but everything Patton said is true. I found the hardscaping was more my 'thing', for a variety of reasons (many Patton brought up). I did mow for a few regular customers, its good cashflow, but anyone even a little flaky, or had a pay issue, goodbye. I found it better to be the one firing the customer, than the other way around - got burned exactly once on a $250 clean-up job on a million dollar house for a 2-year client who moved (can you PLEASE fix up the yard for the realtor, we'll mail you a check...) 

Things are even more difficult down here due to the labor situation. Si Habla Espanol? You may be able to get a decent crew together and kick some grass, but it's a commodity service and you'll always be hustling. Your profit per-cut is very low usually, costs are fixed, and high (fuel ($100/day?), mower/truck/trailer payments, insurance, payroll), so you have to move and cut a lot of grass. Up early out all day kinda hustle... Instead of asking what you can make, figure out what it's going to COST, then work backwards. If you can't make $$$ at the going rate for your area, it might not be the best field to break into. I had to go across town to the "nice" neighborhoods to make money mowing - people on my side of town wouldn't pay those prices (had to budget extra fuel and time to drive across town pulling the trailer). I might have been able to make the same $$$ on my side of town, but would have had to cut more lawns. Driving's easy. Maybe you can get $50/hr in Bell Buckle vs $40/hr in Murfeesboro - but how much fuel does that cost you? LOTS of moving parts as @Danger Rane said.

Installation projects take infinitely more talent and skill (not knocking cutters, there are good and bad ones!), but move at a different pace, and have much greater profit potential. You can also take a pretty big hit if you're not careful. My sweet-spot was the small patio, walkway, retaining wall... SMALL, 6x6' patio, 15-20 foot 3-stack retaining wall, 30-foot 'garden paver path'. Quick in and out jobs I could do in 2-4 days (with maybe 1 helper for the excavation work). I was able to get (not bill, get) ~$20/hr for my time, markup on supplies and consumables (rock, sand, gravel, etc.), and often added in a couple bucks to purchase a new tool (replace worn out shovel, wheelbarrow, got a really nice laser-level one time...) I didn't win every job I estimated, but probably 90%. I had to turn work down from time to time - but granted, this was side-work, not my bread and butter. At the end of a job, I usually made a few hundred bucks. Good side money for 2-3 days work?

In the South I notice irrigation projects are big. Here in East TN it's hilly, so I could go back to doing block and walls in a heartbeat, be busy all week long... Pesticide application was mentioned as well: look towards the skilled-end of the trade. Better $$$, easier work. If you can get to a Rainbird class, learn their products, maybe get signed up as a contractor, it may be a better way to get into the field. Consider working for someone else for a season to learn the ropes - Landscaping is a skilled trade, cutting the lawn isn't. Your salesmanship will play a part as well, not gonna lie - At the time I was a clean-cut middle-aged suburbanite white guy doing this on the side (fatter and older now!) I looked A LOT better coming up the driveway to mostof my clients than the professional's who did it for a living... You bet that impacted what prices I could charge. Get yourself some decent shorts/clean jeans and a polo shirt to keep (folded neatly) in your truck when you go out and do estimates. Put a shot (1!!!) of cologne on a few blocks away. No dip, don't smoke on their property. Don't walk up to your potential clients McMansion covered in the day's dirt (even if it's just a trailer in a field). Speak clearly and articulate, be polite, get some biz-cards printed up. You might be able to get $45 for that $40-dollar-job because of your demeanor and appearance! As with any business endeavor, the market will have high and low ends. The money is usually at the high end... But one of my best accounts was a retired guy in a simple ranch - always paid on time, tipped when he saw you had worked hard. $30-dollar lawn. The richies were the one's that stiffed me. Go figure...

[Patton]

Reefermac sounds like a man with experience. I hate to say it, teachers and preachers are the worst about stiffing you.  If it weren’t for the fact a lot of cops and firefighters do it on the side they would be bad too. Someone that works in a bank will have a check printed for you when you get started.  

As far as specialty skills, I knew a few people that made good money only doing ornamental pruning and a few others doing irrigation. I heard the comment several times from them, “Leave the mowing to the rednecks and the kids”.  One of my favorite sayings is a fit, healthy person can make a living with a Toyota Tacoma, push mower, trimmer, blower, a garbage can, and basic yard tools like a rake and shovel. I’m not say to not buy a larger mower; it may be one of the last purchases I make. Push mowers cut grass and some of your reliable  customers want it push mower. I like to ride a z mower, at least some of the time, a good hydrostatic 48” walk-behind is so much more versatile and requires slightly less to maintain. 

If I hear the comment, “I’m not push mowing anything”. I’m going to tell you find something else to go do.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Patton

[Patton]

Ride through some of the neighborhoods. If you see more landscapers than you see yards that need to be cut it’s a sign the market is saturated with landscapers. 

[hlb14]

Patton and Reffer, I want to thank you so much for your insight.  I sat behind a computer screen for the last 20 years and had to make a change.  I'm embracing what I am, one guy who takes pride in the work i do, takes the time and pays attention to details.  Already owning the truck and mower etc I don't feel the need to rush to get to the next yard just to make payments.  I'm taking the quality over quantity approach, not trying to be the guy with a crew who can do 20+ yards a day.  

Hardscapes, irrigation etc is definitely the way I'd like to go in the future... baby steps.

 

[hlb14]

1 hour ago, Patton said:

I like to ride a z mower, at least some of the time, a good hydrostatic 48” walk-behind is so much more versatile and requires slightly less to maintain. 

If I hear the comment, “I’m not push mowing anything”. I’m going to tell you find something else to go do.

I enjoy the exercise, actually looking to pick up a 36" hydro walk behind next week to compliment my 60" z. 

[Patton]

If you already have a need for a commercial mower picking up some yards will make a little more sense. 

I used a 42” Exmark walk behind in the late 90s for a few weeks, but other than that I have mostly used 48”.  I have seen a few 32-33” walk behinds used by some people I know and trust their judgements. I think I have seen more Bobcat brand than any. Their reasoning was entering backyard gates.  The absolute best mower I ever used was a 48” John Deer hydro walk-behind.  It gave over a decade of reliable service without many surprises. However, I am a huge Snapper fan but the new ones don’t have a attachment for a sulky and can be a little heavy.

[hlb14]

45 minutes ago, Patton said:

 However, I am a huge Snapper fan but the new ones don’t have a attachment for a sulky and can be a little heavy.

The 36" I'm looking at is a ferris fw25, identical to a snapper pro.  Not sure who copied who. It looks like they all pretty much use the same kawi fs motors but the ferris has better hydros. 

[ReeferMac]

15 hours ago, Patton said:

 I have seen a few 32-33” walk behinds used by some people I know and trust their judgements. I think I have seen more Bobcat brand than any. Their reasoning was entering backyard gates.  

 

36" Exmark Walk-behind, no Sulky, wore out 2 pair of sneakers per season!

Blood pressure was never better, tho!

It was the yard-gates that kept me small, I only had a small trailer, didn't want to bring 2 mowers, so if the 36 didn't fit, I didn't cut it (and there were a few smaller gates I had to pass on the jobs). Now my fat a$$ rides a 42 Husq around the property...  what I wouldn't give for my old ExMark!

I started my hardscaping at my own home. Neighbor liked the work, asked if I could do one for him. His buddy liked the work, asked if I could... 

Kudo's for your attitude  @hlb14, that's the one thing you can't teach someone. You'll be just fine. Word of mouth is the best, stay away from Craigslist... nothing but fruitloops on the internet dontchaknow!