Would you engage?

[TripleGGG]

After spending a Saturday recently with @Cool hand Luke(review to come soon, short version absolutely fantastic) I ask the above question about the recent knife attack and murder of 3 Pilot employees and wounding of a customer.

The question assumes you are concealed carrying. 

Would you engage if you had an escape route for yourself? 

One of the best parts of our day with @Cool hand Lukewas the thought processes we must make as we go about our daily lives.

I know what my actions would have been that day. Well at least based upon what I've read. You do not need to defend or explain your answer if you choose. You don't even have to post your answer. 

So I ask each of you, Would you engage if you had an open escape route for yourself (and family if with you)? 

Edited April 9, 2020 by TripleGGG
Spelling

[DaveTN]

Absolutely, and I wouldn’t care if I had an escape route; I wouldn’t need to go anywhere. This question came up before about a guy that stabbed his girlfriend to death in a car at a gas station. I was surprised how many said they would watch and be a good witness. I would have given him an opportunity to surrender and if he didn’t; I would have killed him. I hope someone else that would do the same would be around if that happened to my wife or daughter.

I understand the laws governing the use of deadly force and I do not fear the government, therefore I have no reason not to act.

[Chucktshoes]

I’m keeping my answer to myself simply because it’s a discussion with myself that doesn’t need the input of others. That said, it’s one we all need to have with ourselves. 

[KahrMan]

Back before I knew any better I took my HCP course from Buford "nine fingers" Tune.  He loved the expression be a good witness.  If it does not involve you then stay out of it and be a good witness.  While I think this is good advice it is also problematic because I couldn't sit and watch someone get killed.  It would weigh on my conscious if I could have helped and didn't.  I guess the cop out answer is it depends on the situation.  I'd like to think I would intervene but unless I am put into that situation I guess I will never know.  

[E4 No More]

I am an old sheepdog. It is my nature to protect. Even with my family I'd direct them to leave via the escape route while I engaged as long as I saw it as viable.  

[TripleGGG]

46 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I’m keeping my answer to myself simply because it’s a discussion with myself that doesn’t need the input of others. That said, it’s one we all need to have with ourselves. 

This was the reason for the post! 

[RED333]

I would do my best to make the bad guy stop, what ever that takes.

[Grand Torino]

In reality I wouldn't have even thought about an escape route. That's all I'm sayin'. 

[hipower]

I don't know. That's the honest answer. 

The situation would dictate what I might, or might not, do. I pray I never have to find out.

That being said, with there we live, there's always a possibility I might have to find the answer within myself someday.

Kharman, if you don't mind, when did you take Buford's class? As near as my feeble mind can remember around 1998 for me. And I just ran across the completion certificate a couple weeks ago. But didn't really pay attention to the date.

[Garufa]

Does anyone really know until presented with the decision?

[xsubsailor]

[DWARREN123]

I would not know until the situation arises then I would make my decision.

[peejman]

There's more than a few unanswered details to consider, but generally speaking, I don't think I could stand by and watch helpless people be murdered. 

[Alleycat72]

Yes. 

My wife knows she needs to get the kids and run if the 9mm comes out. Her gun is only for someone that gets between her and safety at that point. 

[Chucktshoes]

32 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Does anyone really know until presented with the decision?

I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been in that kind of situation before can definitively answer that question. That said, somebody who has never even begun to ponder the thought is probably a lot more likely to freeze up when faced with it.

[Erik88]

While we may never know, I'm guessing few of us could watch women get knifed to death and do nothing. Assuming we have a safe backstop I bet most would take the shot.

[Jamie Jackson]

I think all of us would hope we would step up and do what is needed. But as has been mentioned we can't say with 100% certainty until presented with the situation.

Having training such as @TripleGGG took with @Cruel Hand Luke can help provide realistic context for when & how, and allow you to start running the mental scenarios...again in proper context.

Timing is a critically important aspect that could much better be addressed by Randy ( Cruel Hand Luke) than I.

I would recommend viewing Active Self Protection videos to gain some insight and perspective on how some events actually unfold. They sometimes, unfortunately, have negative outcomes, fortunately sometimes positive.

Proper training and practice, and mental preparation, will aid greatly in moving toward the positive outcome side of the equation.

In the end it's a decision that each of us would have to make, but having thought it through should help.

I personally would hope I'd do the right thing. I think I would. I hope I don't have to find out.

Great idea for a thread @TripleGGG,

This vid is food for thought and a decent analysis by John Correia

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Jamie Jackson
Spelling

[ReeferMac]

Gawd, I used to buy my coffee from the old lady that got it at that Pilot... Can't fathom, can't even get my head around what it would be like standing in line. I've stopped at that Pilot a couple hundred times in the last couple years, no exaggeration... What would I do? Probably freeze in dis-belief? I honestly don't know if I would react to the perp, I suspect my initial reaction (after Holy #(!&^!! ) would be aid to the wounded?

Can you prepare for something like that? I mean, training... Obviously some of our military veterans and emergency response people have had exposure to such situations, but as a normal person, how do you know how you will react? Blood, guts, and gore tend to produce visceral reflex response, not reasoned thoughtfulness. How do you prepare (training, aka @CruelHandLuke's class)? I often game idea's in my head about how I would do this, or that, or.... But I do the same thing AFTER a fight (verbal disagreement) with my wife, or a co-worker, peer, etc. Yeah, sure, after the fact I always come up with a killer come-back to end the conversation with. In the heat of the moment, there's a roaring in my ears and I can't think for nothing... So there I am twiddling my phone while waiting for my turn in line, and all of a sudden the guy in front of me starts popping off on the old bird for taking too long with the rewards card? Whips out a knife and climbs over the counter....? 

I dunno man, I honestly just don't know how I would react, or what I would do? I would hope that the Chivalry gene would kick in and make my brain react, but I don't think anyone will truly KNOW how they'll react unless they've been there. All the dry fire and scenario game-playing in the world isn't going to prepare you for that first spray of red.

Crazy times....

 

- K
 

[E4 No More]

11 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been in that kind of situation before can definitively answer that question. That said, somebody who has never even begun to ponder the thought is probably a lot more likely to freeze up when faced with it.

True that!

[pop pop]

I will not answer, because I don't have the details and I know nothing about this Pilot stabbing.  I assume it is a truck stop you are talking about. 

I will say it always intrigues me that so many will say, yes I would get involved, to a situation like this, and then leave a slight connotation that if you don't think as I do, there is something wrong with you, or you are less of a man if you don't make the choice to get involved.

It is my thought, on getting involved with another's problems, that person who is directly involved has the responsibility for his or her own safety and security, just as I do. That person involved also has the same opportunity to be concealed carrying as I do. So the question comes up, why should I be forced to protect someone who did not prepare beforehand to protect themselves?

Buford Tune is correct, if he taught be a good witness, because you don't always know what the true situation is that one just walks up on. I teach the same when I have train others.  

Before you all jump on. I will say again, I don't know about the opening posters situation on the stabbings so I will not answer the question on getting involved in that situation. But, IMO, there is no shame on not getting involved with another's problems. The other person has the responsibility for defense of himself.  

[Ronald_55]

My thoughts - Do I 

A. Want my family see me shoot someone?

B. Want to put them through the legal shltstorm that results from this?

It is not as clear cut as "If I do right, it will all be ok." Look at how many people you read about who were very clearly in the right defending themselves (or others) only to spend weeks or months for the courts to decide that? Then they spend years fighting lawsuits from family members that say you are a murdering S.O.B. even though their son/daughter/wife/husband/cousin had a wrap sheet for everything short of nuking an orphanage. 

My largest responsibility is to my family. Everything that happens to me after I pull my gun happens to them.

[TripleGGG]

22 minutes ago, Ronald_55 said:

My thoughts - Do I 

A. Want my family see me shoot someone?

B. Want to put them through the legal shltstorm that results from this?

It is not as clear cut as "If I do right, it will all be ok." Look at how many people you read about who were very clearly in the right defending themselves (or others) only to spend weeks or months for the courts to decide that? Then they spend years fighting lawsuits from family members that say you are a murdering S.O.B. even though their son/daughter/wife/husband/cousin had a wrap sheet for everything short of nuking an orphanage. 

My largest responsibility is to my family. Everything that happens to me after I pull my gun happens to them.

I will state if you carry you definitely need carry insurance.  It will be $50-$100k at a minimum to defend a good shooting, can be 10Xs that if you kill someone.

[E4 No More]

"Good witnesses" tend to end up dead witnesses. 

[RED333]

37 minutes ago, TripleGGG said:

I will state if you carry you definitely need carry insurance.

You do understand that a DA will use this against you if you ever fire your firearm and cause any harm or damage. The DA will say you wanted to use your firearm so you got the insurance before hand to cover your actions. I have asked lawyers(well 2) about this and keeping them on retainer, ever answer was "NO, bad idea", for the reasons I gave.

As always, just my $0.02

[DaveTN]

My question about carry insurance has never been answered, and it is simply this…

I do not believe for one second that any insurance company is going to pay your legal defense fees for a bad shoot. I have asked for stories of real life cases that we could check where that happened, not stories in ads. So far nothing.