Can the government really shut down my business and make me stay at home?

[TGO David]

This is a good read from some smart lawyer type people on the subject of whether the government can shut down businesses, as they have been doing lately.

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/can-government-really-shut-down-my-business-and-make-me-stay-home-questions-answered

 

This is a very hot topic right now, and rightfully so. People who support what their local governments are doing and say it's necessary to stop people from needless social mingling are accused of being "statists" or "boot lickers" or "cucks of the crown".

People who oppose it because the idea of government tyranny makes their blood boil are called "extremists" or "threepers" (Three Percenters) and other not-nice things.

I'm very opposed to large government. I'm a dinosaur in the sense that I'm a firm believer in the Constitution and individual freedoms and liberties. I don't think it's a good thing that this is happening, for a variety of reasons.

However, it is helpful to understand how we got here, what the legal precidents are, and maybe... just maybe... to acknowledge our role in all of this as citizens of a laws-based society, regardless of whether we agree with the laws.  And we need to remember that there is a method to change laws and it includes the whole range of actions from he voting booth to the minuteman's rifle.  For some reason there are a lot of people who insist on glamorizing the latter and don't seem to grasp the gravity of what it really means.

I tell my teams at work all the time: When we are reckless and careless, we invite leadership into our world to "fix things".

Can we honestly state that as a society we haven't invited the government to step in and "fix things" due to our inability to simply stay at home and deprive the COVID-19 virus the means of transmisssion?

I'm not talking about necessary trips to the grocery store. I'm talking about trips to the Mall beceause we're bored, or to parties on the beach because it's Spring Break, or to the local bar or club because we think we're too healthy to get sick.

Anyway... these smart lawyers explain why the government can do what it's doing. If we don't like it, we should fire the politicians who support it and elect some that won't. 

[DaveTN]

In watching the Governor yesterday, the thing I found curious was that he didn’t specify what the penalty was for violating the order. He said he left it up to local law enforcement, but gave direction that he wanted it enforced.

So I guess in some areas you get a $500 ticket and in other areas they get you out of the car and beat you with a night stick or dance you around a little with their tasers?

[DWARREN123]

It is because some people are stupid and reckless.

People do not use reason or logic much.

[TGO David]

35 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

In watching the Governor yesterday, the thing I found curious was that he didn’t specify what the penalty was for violating the order. He said he left it up to local law enforcement, but gave direction that he wanted it enforced.

So I guess in some areas you get a $500 ticket and in other areas they get you out of the car and beat you with a night stick or dance you around a little with their tasers?

I think Lee is trying his best to pick up a turd by the clean end.  It can't be done, of course, but he's trying.

Unfortunately I think that while the police might be able to enforce his directive, some agencies won't want to - and I can't blame them.  In order for an edict like this to pass the constitutionality sniff test, it has to be applied to all people equally.  Saying that each agency can decide how they want to penalize people doesn't mesh with that at all.

Neither does telling some businesses that they have to be closed while others can stay open, I guess,  But here we are.

If your local agency decides that they want to enforce it, you're at their mercy until you get your day in court.  When you do, you might get a judge who has his head screwed-on straight and thinks it's unconstitutional as well, or you might get one who doesn't.  Then you're going to end up having to appeal it until you either get to a judge who agrees with you, or get told that the court isn't going to hear your case again.

 

The whole thing sucks.  It's not good, it's not right, it's not clean, and it doesn't feel like America.  Each of us has to decide where the line is drawn for us, and hope that maybe it's in the same place a lot of other people have it drawn too.  If everyone rebels, we stand a chance of coming out reasonably well on the other side.  If only one or two do it, they'll experience the punitive capacity of the government and be portrayed as lone dissidents by the government to an unsympathetic public.

The better option is probably to just sue the hell out of the local and state governments that do this sort of thing, and hope you get enough sympathetic jurors on the stand to agree with you.  Otherwise that's futile as well.

 

Damn, I'm depressing myself.

 

[TGO David]

7 minutes ago, DWARREN123 said:

It is because some people are stupid and reckless.

People do not use reason or logic much.

We're a "Me First" society now.  There aren't many cases where people care about their neighbors, their community, or the common good as much or more than they care about themselves.

@MacGyver has used a phrase lately that I'm growing to appreciate more and like less.  "We get the government we deserve, I guess,"

 

[Erik88]

18 minutes ago, TGO David said:

We're a "Me First" society now.  There aren't many cases where people care about their neighbors, their community, or the common good as much or more than they care about themselves.

@MacGyver has used a phrase lately that I'm growing to appreciate more and like less.  "We get the government we deserve, I guess,"

 

I honestly feel for all the governors right now. They are being put in an impossible spot. I know most of us are in the small government crowd. None of us are fond of being told what to do, especially by government. But I honestly think this might be an example of where government intervention is needed. It wasn't that long ago that bar owners in downtown Nashville were refusing to close. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. 

As someone who leans libertarian on a lot of topics, maybe this makes me a hypocrite right now but I'm on board with what Lee is doing and frankly I won't be too upset if he has to do more. We have seen it work in other countries and I'm afraid the states that implement the least amount of measures will get hit the hardest. 

 

[DaveTN]

43 minutes ago, TGO David said:

We're a "Me First" society now.  There aren't many cases where people care about their neighbors, their community, or the common good as much or more than they care about themselves.

Laredo, TX is requiring people entering public buildings to wear a mask. The penalty is $1,000 or “confinement in jail for a period not exceeding 180 days”.

My wife works in food processing and they are giving them dust masks because proper masks (N95) are going to medical personnel.

3M Distributors are selling masks to foreign countries because they are showing up with cash. Listen to what this buyer for the state of Florida was told.

 

 

[TGO David]

1 minute ago, DaveTN said:

3M Distributors are selling masks to foreign countries because they are showing up with cash. Listen to what this buyer for the state of Florida was told.

3M is a multinational company with its HQ in the US.  The way the news is spinning this, they are an American company screwing over Americans to send masks to other countries.  The reality is that they are a company with presences in other countries where those countries' residents view them as being a domestic employer.

Trump should have resisted the urge to slam 3M for this but he doesn't do much that isn't impulsive and hyperbolic.  Crucifying them during a White House press briefing just shows how surprisingly ignorant he is of how multinational firms practically exist without borders.

[TomInMN]

4 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Laredo, TX is requiring people entering public buildings to wear a mask. The penalty is $1,000 or “confinement in jail for a period not exceeding 180 days”.

My wife works in food processing and they are giving them dust masks because proper masks (N95) are going to medical personnel.

3M Distributors are selling masks to foreign countries because they are showing up with cash. Listen to what this buyer for the state of Florida was told.

 

 

 

 

But isn't 3M selling to those that make the most persuasive offer the essence of capitalism? We shouldn't be telling them who they can or can't see their products to, should we?

[DaveTN]

Ha, ha, ha, I should have known this was Trumps fault. Pence went to 3M to talk with them about increasing production to meet the mask needs we have. I guess sending them to foreign countries is capitalism. I would have never thought the government would need to force an American company to comply, but I should have known better. Apply the Defense Production Act to get the masks from 3M.

We will learn a lesson from this some of us have known all our adult lives.

13 minutes ago, TomInMN said:

But isn't 3M selling to those that make the most persuasive offer the essence of capitalism? We shouldn't be telling them who they can or can't see their products to, should we?

Maybe not... Our own ignorance has put us in a difficult position.

Quote

 

Antibiotics, which turn life-threatening infections into minor nuisances, are considered the single biggest advance in modern medicine.

But imagine if the supply of antibiotics to the United States was suddenly cut off.

American national security officials are worrying about that scenario as they come to grips with this little understood fact: The vast majority of key ingredients for drugs that many Americans rely on are manufactured abroad, mostly in China.

 

 

 

[TGO David]

35 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Ha, ha, ha, I should have known this was Trumps fault. Pence went to 3M to talk with them about increasing production to meet the mask needs we have. I guess sending them to foreign countries is capitalism. I would have never thought the government would need to force an American company to comply, but I should have known better. Apply the Defense Production Act to get the masks from 3M.

We will learn a lesson from this some of us have known all our adult lives.

Maybe not... Our own ignorance has put us in a difficult position.

 

 

Let me spin this:

If 3M were a French company with factories on American soil, employing American workers, how pissed would you be if we needed the masks being made here but the French government ordered 3M to send them back to the motherland?

You'd expect that we'd be given a chance to at least buy some of what we made and keep them here for our own needs, right?

 

 

[DaveTN]

8 minutes ago, TGO David said:

Let me spin this:

If 3M were a French company with factories on American soil, employing American workers, how pissed would you be if we needed the masks being made here but the French government ordered 3M to send them back to the motherland?

You'd expect that we'd be given a chance to at least buy some of what we made and keep them here for our own needs, right?

Absolutely. They made a commitment when they built a factory here. I couldn’t possibly care any less about the lives of the French if my choices put American lives at risk. The French would feel the same about their people.

Now for clarity… I’m not saying I don’t care about human lives. I’m saying I would pick Americans over supplies going to other countries. That may not be a popular opinion for some; but it’s what I suspect Trump would do; or most any other person charged with keeping the American people safe.

[DaveTN]

I might have to weigh that against the possibility of the French cutting off our antibiotic supply. But that's not what you asked.

Edited April 3, 2020 by DaveTN

[btq96r]

If anyone is in doubt as to the power of government in an emergency situation, just take a look at history.  We're very good at realizing something was wrong, or a step too far, but only a generation later when the danger of that moment has long past.  Not so much on prospects for your rights in the moment, however.

 

1 hour ago, TGO David said:

Crucifying them during a White House press briefing just shows how surprisingly ignorant he is of how multinational firms practically exist without borders.

I think he knows.  Even through osmosis, he has to know that at least that much.  He is just using them as a very convenient punching bag, because attacking 3M in those simplistic terms will work with the intended audience.  It'll even be magnified if someone in the media tries to explain it like you did, since he's done a marvelous job over the last 3 years of making them a punching bag as well.  It's a win-win for him with anyone that doesn't understand the fundamental basics of a global economy. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by btq96r

[gregintenn]

2 hours ago, TGO David said:

Let me spin this:

If 3M were a French company with factories on American soil, employing American workers, how pissed would you be if we needed the masks being made here but the French government ordered 3M to send them back to the motherland?

You'd expect that we'd be given a chance to at least buy some of what we made and keep them here for our own needs, right?

 

 

If 3M had a contract to produce masks for whomever, they are legally and morally obligated to honor said contract.

[DaveTN]

31 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

If 3M had a contract to produce masks for whomever, they are legally and morally obligated to honor said contract.

If you watch the video, 3M says they are not making the decisions. They are claiming they don’t sell masks, that it’s their distributors and they have no control over that. They told Florida their orders were being “pushed back” because foreign buyers are showing up with cash. I submit that is price gouging and during this emergency is probably a crime. I say “probably” because I don’t really care if it’s a crime or not and don’t want to debate that; it’s wrong.

[Garufa]

One of 3M’s biggest factories is in China and China is claiming their mask production for themselves.

Even Geraldo is pissed.

We really, really need to figure out a way to get large-scale manufacturing of even the most mundane, taken for granted goods back into this country.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Garufa

[Chucktshoes]

“Emergencies have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.” F. A. Hayek

[leroy]

My take on all this is that " The Gadsden Flag " has come out and that everybody with any sense knows it... Everybody in gubt best leave the citizenry alone...

Lee has done his best to placate both sides in this and I'm betting LEO won't touch any individual citizenry enforcement... Take a look at the Knox County Sheriff's letter today, which i'll paraphrase "... We have been given leeway in enforcing this order.. ....I am confident that there won't be any need to enforce...  We're all in this together..."...Sheriff Spangler, the County Executive, and everybody else (... Even Lee, whom I'm greatly disappointed in and will not vote for again...) seems to understand this is dangerous on both ends...

Let's let this little thunderstorm pass and get everybody back to work, or there will be real trouble.  This state is a powder keg, and I think Lee just murdered himself politically...

leroy

Edited April 3, 2020 by leroy

[gregintenn]

We’ve missed you lately, Leroy. I’m glad to hear your take on the current situation.

[leroy]

1 minute ago, gregintenn said:

We’ve missed you lately, Leroy. I’m glad to hear your take on the current situation.

Thanks Greg... I greatly appreciate bein missed...  

leroy...

[AuEagle]

50 minutes ago, Garufa said:

 

We really, really need to figure out a way to get large-scale manufacturing of even the most mundane, taken for granted goods back into this country.

AMEN!!!

[Raoul]

Well it's good to see the paranoia runs fast and deep here.

My only suggestion is if you can afford to hunker down do so. If not please stay away from me. And let me add I am absurdly well armed and would just as soon not see anyone at my door.

Is that not where we are? It's a brave new world citizens.....

[leroy]

1 minute ago, Raoul said:

Well it's good to see the paranoia runs fast and deep here.

My only suggestion is if you can afford to hunker down do so. If not please stay away from me. And let me add I am absurdly well armed and would just as soon not see anyone at my door.

Is that not where we are? It's a brave new world citizens.....

Brother...

You just spoke for everyone of us I'm thinkin... That's why this needs to go away very fast.. There is a reason why gun and ammo sales are out the roof and we are talkin about it now...

Amen..

[Garufa]

41 minutes ago, Raoul said:

If not please stay away from me.

As long as you don’t public when I do it’s all good.  

Edited April 3, 2020 by Garufa