SARS-2-CoV (COVID-19)

[maroonandwhite]

I’ll post this at the risk of it having been covered recently. Large thread though…

Has anyone ran across detailed documentation or studies of how or if any of these vaccines may affect fertility in women of child bearing age?   This has been the main concern of my wife and basically the only reason we haven’t been vaccinated yet.

I’ll go further and add that after contracting the virus a few days ago, I will be getting vaccinated once I’m well. Assuming the lord lets me get past it.    I’m very certain my wife will push back tremendously on an ask for her to take it but I’m to the point now where my argument would be “we can’t have more kids if we are dead”.

The most info I can find on the subject is just claims of studies that support no harm.

[TGO David]

1 minute ago, maroonandwhite said:

I’ll post this at the risk of it having been covered recently. Large thread though…

Has anyone ran across detailed documentation or studies of how or if any of these vaccines may affect fertility in women of child bearing age?   This has been the main concern of my wife and basically the only reason we haven’t been vaccinated yet.

 

No, but I did see this on the news recently and am not sure how it sets with me.  I also am not sure how this is possible since a mother's blood supply and child's blood aren't supposed to mix.  In fact, bad things can happen if it does.

First baby in U.S. born with antibodies against COVID-19 after mom receives dose of Moderna vaccine while pregnant - CBS News

 

[Mike1000]

I did find these articles but they're several months old.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/01/covid-19-antibodies-transmit-moms-babies-during-pregnancy

https://news.weill.cornell.edu/news/2021/04/pregnant-women-who-receive-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-pass-antibodies-to-their-babies

Edited August 23, 2021 by Mike1000

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think we've all witnessed a giant failing in our public health arm of the government. Here's some stuff that I expect y'all have been thinking about same as me.

1. I wonder if we were so ill-prepared for this because for decades we thought pandemics were things that happened in places that we don't really care about? That may be overly critical, but the CDC and others really seem to have been caught flat-footed here.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/obama-team-left-pandemic-playbook-for-trump-administration-officials-confirm


Ill just leave this here.

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, maroonandwhite said:

I’ll post this at the risk of it having been covered recently. Large thread though…

Has anyone ran across detailed documentation or studies of how or if any of these vaccines may affect fertility in women of child bearing age?   This has been the main concern of my wife and basically the only reason we haven’t been vaccinated yet.

I’ll go further and add that after contracting the virus a few days ago, I will be getting vaccinated once I’m well. Assuming the lord lets me get past it.    I’m very certain my wife will push back tremendously on an ask for her to take it but I’m to the point now where my argument would be “we can’t have more kids if we are dead”.

The most info I can find on the subject is just claims of studies that support no harm.

First and foremost, your wife should have a conversation with her Ob/Gyn.  It sounds like he or she has brought at least one child into the world for you - so they have a relationship with you and your wife and have your wellbeing at heart.

There's a reason most doctors are going to ask about maternal vaccinations as a part of standard prenatal care. It's because mothers pass antibodies to their babies. So in that critical time in the first days of their life - they're still receiving protection from their mothers.

Any doctor should be willing to spend the time with you to have this conversation. If they're not - it's a good prompt to find another doctor.

You can always ask them to print you a copy of the UpToDate reference on anything. If you're not familiar with this - it's a resource that basically rounds up all the evidence-based clinical support data in one place

https://learn.uptodate.com/global

Here's specifically the resource for COVID-19: https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-epidemiology-virology-and-prevention

And specifically on pregnancy questions here:

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-and-pregnancy-questions-and-answers?search=covid pregnancy&source=search_result&selectedTitle=2~150&usage_type=default&display_rank=2

To quote the relevant section

Quote

Are SARS-CoV-2 vaccines safe for pregnant women and women planning pregnancy?

Yes. We recommend COVID-19 vaccination for pregnant women rather than deferring vaccination until after delivery. This recommendation is based on increasingly reassuring data regarding the safety and efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines during pregnancy as well as data that pregnancy itself is associated with an increased risk of severe infection (CDC tier 1c vaccine allocation). The SARS-CoV-2 vaccines that are clinically available do not contain virus that replicates.

Vaccination can occur at the same time as administration of a routinely administered vaccine, such as the Tdap and influenza; a separation period is unnecessary. (See "COVID-19: Pregnancy issues and antenatal care", section on 'Vaccines'.)

Vaccination is not thought to affect fertility, and it is not necessary to delay pregnancy after vaccination. (See "COVID-19: Pregnancy issues and antenatal care", section on 'Reproductive decision-making'.)

But, the best answer overwhelmingly is to talk to your Ob/Gyn

[GlockSpock]

Well, I very much and sincerely hope that I do not regret it, but I just got the first of the Pfizer shots today. 
 

The one thing that I personally have gotten 100% fully sick of is the fact that it can be hard to know who to trust. You can go on the internet today and read many hours worth of “research”, some of it from apparently knowledgeable sources, that state for example the vaccines are extremely dangerous. That can be countered with “official research” that dismisses nearly all the claims against. It can be exhausting, even overwhelming, to make your own mind up. 
 

I have always been very, very pro-vaccine. However, I have experienced much anxiety over a COVID vaccine. In theory it should be a great thing, but it is very easy to allow a voice in the back of your mind that instills doubt. 

[maroonandwhite]

4 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

First and foremost, your wife should have a conversation with her Ob/Gyn.  It sounds like he or she has brought at least one child into the world for you - so they have a relationship with you and your wife and have your wellbeing at heart.

There's a reason most doctors are going to ask about maternal vaccinations as a part of standard prenatal care. It's because mothers pass antibodies to their babies. So in that critical time in the first days of their life - they're still receiving protection from their mothers.

Any doctor should be willing to spend the time with you to have this conversation. If they're not - it's a good prompt to find another doctor.

You can always ask them to print you a copy of the UpToDate reference on anything. If you're not familiar with this - it's a resource that basically rounds up all the evidence-based clinical support data in one place

https://learn.uptodate.com/global

Here's specifically the resource for COVID-19: https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-epidemiology-virology-and-prevention

And specifically on pregnancy questions here:

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-and-pregnancy-questions-and-answers?search=covid pregnancy&source=search_result&selectedTitle=2~150&usage_type=default&display_rank=2

To quote the relevant section

But, the best answer overwhelmingly is to talk to your Ob/Gyn

Thanks for this info!  I am pushing for a conversation with her Ob/Gyn.

[FUJIMO]

17 minutes ago, Daniel said:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/obama-team-left-pandemic-playbook-for-trump-administration-officials-confirm


Ill just leave this here.

So O had a book out there and tons of people knew about it but not a single member of his former administration took it to a Democrat like Pelosi or Schumer or expert Fauci when this broke out ? Sounds like X presidential TP to me. As far as cocaine Mitch denying it i don't doubt that a bit

[mikegideon]

8 minutes ago, FUJIMO said:

So O had a book out there and tons of people knew about it but not a single member of his former administration took it to a Democrat like Pelosi or Schumer or expert Fauci when this broke out ? Sounds like X presidential TP to me. As far as cocaine Mitch denying it i don't doubt that a bit

Bush left a detailed plan for pouring piss out of a boot. The boot remained full. Looks like NO administration is going to follow a previous administration's plan. Just the way it is.

Edited August 23, 2021 by mikegideon

[FUJIMO]

1 minute ago, mikegideon said:

Bush left a detailed plan for pouring piss out of a boot. The boot remained full.

My point was ANYONE that had a fix should have stepped forward immediately. 

We were hammered with "this is unlike anything we've ever seen" on all networks daily so how did O have a playbook to fix it? The same one that had a racial beer summit

[FUJIMO]

5 minutes ago, mikegideon said:

Bush left a detailed plan for pouring piss out of a boot. The boot remained full. Looks like NO administration is going to follow a previous administration's plan. Just the way it is.

Agreed

[mikegideon]

Just now, FUJIMO said:

My point was ANYONE that had a fix should have stepped forward immediately. 

We were hammered with "this is unlike anything we've ever seen" on all networks daily so how did O have a playbook to fix it? The same one that had a racial beer summit

Brand new virus. It would have caught anybody off guard, especially somebody that had never held a job in the real world. They know some stuff now.

[Raoul]

Anybody get a flu shot this year?

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, Raoul said:

Anybody get a flu shot this year?

I did.  The army requires it every year.  I get paid for a whole day to walk in to walgreens and get a shot.  $125 or so for 10 minutes of my time.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Daniel

[mikegideon]

1 hour ago, Raoul said:

Anybody get a flu shot this year?

No. The flu has been eradicated.

[mikegideon]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I did.  The army requires it every year.  I get paid for a whole day to walk in to walgreens and get a shot.  $125 or so for 10 minutes of my time.

 

I love Walgreens shots. You can feel some of them in your toes.

[AuEagle]

New super variant named “Covid-22” could be more dangerous than Delta strain: Expert | ZeroHedge

 

Reserve your next jab.

[Oh Shoot]

So, no surprise, big boost in TN Covid deaths:

Aug 1-7           89
Aug 8-14      129
Aug 15-21    212  (this week is highest since last week of Feb.)

- OS

 

 

[gregintenn]

29 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

New super variant named “Covid-22” could be more dangerous than Delta strain: Expert | ZeroHedge

 

Reserve your next jab.

Who didn’t see this coming?

Edited August 24, 2021 by gregintenn

[gregintenn]

9 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I'm a forensic scientist.  To be clear - I don't work as an epidemiologist or immunologist - but I work with people who've dedicated their whole lives to those disciplines - and I trust them with my life.  I'm comfortable with data - I turn to them for nuance.

Two things up front:

This is going to be a nuanced post.  The left and the right both do something really poorly - and it's hurting us right now.  The left has this "trust the science" narrative that they love but they have no idea what that actually means.  It often gets pushed in the media as "trust me - you're too stupid to know what you're talking about." Thus on the right - people push back against that narrative for a variety of reasons. Maybe they don't trust the people on the left. Maybe they just don't want to be talked down to and told what to do. Whatever.  I get it. But it's killing us right now.  We've got to do better regardless of where we fall on the political spectrum.

1. Science is not truth. Science is the pursuit of truth - and hopefully through rigorous processes we get closer to the truth. If you want an easy way to distinguish between whether or not you should trust someone regarding "science" listen to whether they talk more about what they know or what they don't know. If you choose to listen to someone - pick the latter.
2. The scientists I know and trust are absolutely terrified right now. There's a whole lot we still don't know. Graphs like the one @mikegideonposted above are truly scary. We're about to see some very dark days ahead. That's an exponential curve on that graph - and the thing about exponential growth is that if you're going to change it the only time it really matters is when it seems too early. We're too late.

So with those caveats out of the way - here's the best we've got right now:

@deerslayer to your question on the Pfizer vaccine - yes all of the vaccines are dropping double digits in effectiveness right now.  They're still really good at keeping you out of the hospital with serious illness and are good at preventing death. But, with the transmission numbers we're seeing - it's clear that breakthrough infections are happening.

Here's a chart showing the most recent controlled studies grouped into one place:

That's a lot of data in one place - but basically if you remember the 95%+ numbers you saw back in the spring - they're all dropping a bunch right now.  Pfizer went from 97% effectiveness reported at 2 months to 84% reported at 5-6 months (and those studies ended in May which means current real world data is likely worse.)

If I had to pick a vaccine today I'd choose Moderna as it seems most effective against the variants. But the viruses are still mutating/evolving.  So couple in the fact that the virus is mutating to avoid the vaccines and that antibody levels naturally sag over time - and you're going to see more infections.

Another major factor is that our behavior patterns are changing - especially among the vaccinated - we're out and about and the viral load we're exposed to on a daily basis is likely to be pretty high.  So often in science, we learn in the rearview mirror.  We don't get that luxury here.  But, if you think about the efficacy rates measured in the Spring - most people were still staying inside. They just weren't that exposed by and large. That's different now.

We're seeing a lot of breakthrough infections right now. So many in fact that the public health people can't seem to be honest with people and just say "vaccinated people can get it and spread it" without contradicting what they've been saying about the wild (alpha) variant. This delta variant doesn't behave like the wild variant.

That said, the vaccines still perform quite well at keeping you out of the hospital and prevent you from dying.

So, with all that - how do you take action. Here's what we're doing in my family:

1. Get vaccinated if you haven't already. You can literally do it on your coffee break by walking into practically any pharmacy in America. Here's the best source for finding one near you (https://www.vaccines.gov)
2. If I were choosing what vaccine to get right now - I'd choose Moderna. It still seems most effective against the variants. But - you're looking at two shots spaced over three weeks - so a total of five weeks to full immunity. So, if you've not been vaccinated at all it might be worth it to consider the J&J single shot for a quicker response time. If you're wanting an mRNA vaccine but are sketchy about the EUA status - Pfizer should have full approval as soon as this afternoon.
3. Talk to your doctor about it. They have a relationship with you and can give you the best information they've got.
4. If you are vaccinated - don't give your immunity a stress test. This delta variant is causing breakthrough infections. We're out and about more - and thus exposed to higher viral loads. I know we all got rid of the masks this Spring - but for the next little bit it's worth picking them back up.
5. As to children - multiple things can be true at once - the overall risk to children is pretty low - and COVID rocketed into the leading causes of death amongst children in less than a year. Two of my three are vaccinated - and my youngest would be if he could get away with telling the doctor he was 12. 
6. For the next 6-8 weeks, I'd probably stay off of tall ladders and other stuff that could put me in the hospital if I had an accident. Like @E4 No More experienced above - if you need an ICU bed right now - you're likely to have to wait for someone to die first.
7. If you're immunocompromised - you're likely already talking to your doctor about an additional mRNA shot. They can measure antibody response to make sure you're fully protected.
8. If you're in a group that got vaccinated back in January/February - you're likely to be eligible for an mRNA booster soon.  Talk to your doctor about it. The data shows lagging antibody response over time.
9. If you got infected with the original variant - and it's been more than a few months - it's probably worth getting vaccinated.  We know that the vaccines generate a higher antibody response. I know a couple of people who had the original variant and have since died after contracting delta.
10. Talk to the people you care about. There's no harm in offering a sort of collective off ramp.  Just because you've held out so far - doesn't mean you can't change your mind when presented with new data. Viruses should get less lethal over time - this one isn't doing that yet.

If you'd like to do some more reading from that highlights what we know and what we don't - this is pretty current:  https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/23/lets_stop_pretending_about_the_covid-19_vaccines_791050.html

I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has. I know that I don't know a lot of you personally - but this is a community that I really care about. I'm tired of losing people to this thing. 

Feel free to give me a shout or shoot me a DM if I can help at all.

Mac, I appreciate more than you will ever know your willingness to share your knowledge with us. A lot of it goes over my head, but thank you just the same. The fact you see these vaccines as good carries a lot of weight with me.

I know very little about medicine of the metabolic and chemical makeup of the human body. I am a numbers guy. What gives me pause is everything I see points to a small group of folks getting very wealthy from this. I can think of no other reason these folks are pushing so damned hard for everyone to get this shot.

Edited August 24, 2021 by gregintenn

[Quavodus]

58 minutes ago, mikegideon said:

No. The flu has been eradicated.

Yeah China  cured Flu. Chinese Government say "We cure Flu and nobody thank us, what the hell".

[Quavodus]

1 hour ago, mikegideon said:

I love Walgreens shots. You can feel some of them in your toes.

Sounds pretty brutal.

[mikegideon]

35 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Who didn’t see this coming?

I see nothing  

[MacGyver]

37 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Mac, I appreciate more than you will ever know your willingness to share your knowledge with us. A lot of it goes over my head, but thank you just the same. The fact you see these vaccines as good carries a lot of weight with me.

I know very little about medicine of the metabolic and chemical makeup of the human body. I am a numbers guy. What gives me pause is everything I see points to a small group of folks getting very wealthy from this. I can think of no other reason these folks are pushing so damned hard for everyone to get this shot.

For what it’s worth, if you’ve got ETFs in your retirement fund, you’ve probably at least got Pfizer and J&j in there  

I deeply care about this community - and if I can help anyone - that’s all the reason I’ve got and all the motivation I need.  Full stop.

As a forensic professional I’ve had too many heart wrenching conversations this year with folks who have lost their loved ones.

I’m not a front line worker by any stretch.

But I’m so tired.  Everyone I work with is just flat exhausted. I worry for our nurses’ and ambulance drivers’ mental well being. How many hands can you hold and cry as they die without their loved ones near?

There is a metric ton of bad information out there. It’s become hard to figure out who to trust.  If I can use my voice to help people find their way through it I will.

Offer stands.  DMs are open.  Happy to talk anytime. 

[GlockSpock]

@MacGyver

Care to expound on the mountains of data and research we have on any of these vaccines? I’d be curious what you have to say about the trials, research, and safety record of this vs other vaccines that have made it to market.

Even though I myself have and even to some extent do fall into this fallacy, I find it extremely ironic that it is bad that the vaccine arrived quickly, as if it would have been better to take the “normal” timeline and have many, many more people die. At least then you could trust the vaccine? Or would that be the case of blame governments or cooperations for being ineffective?