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[gregintenn]

21 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Once again, let me state for the record that I do want this law to pass.  I do think its a step in the right direction. 

My concern is not about "wild west" or "blood in the streets" scenarios. My concern is about untrained idiots walking around with guns. We all know that one guy who is an accident just waiting to happen. Personally I wouldn't care to be in line at the grocery store behind Grandma who's fumbling around in her purse totally unaware that her lipstick or ink pen has gotten stuck in the trigger guard of her gun. Or the moron who just can't stop fondling the gun in his pocket. Negligent discharges worry me a lot more than bad guys. You can't fix stupid and the large cities are drowning  in it. 

The only way you can get rid of that is to become a hermit.

[xtriggerman]

9 hours ago, Worriedman said:

Tennessee JUST achieved CC last year with the new Holt bill, prior to that it was Handgun Carry, open or concealed.

I understand all that. My use of CC was for the topic at hand... Constitutional Carry. 

[TomInMN]

11 hours ago, gregintenn said:

The only way you can get rid of that is to become a hermit.

Some days, I think even that won't work for me!

[TomInMN]

15 hours ago, Worriedman said:

Like most of the folks behind the wheel of a car or pick up?

There's no Constitutional right to drive, so the comparison only goes so far. But, I suspect that a lot of the people who make terrible drivers would make terrible armed, polite citizens.

I think most people do an adequate (no, not good) job driving. I think most people would do an adequate job carrying.

I've also seen folks risk the lives of everyone around them because they couldn't be bothered to know where they are, stay more than six feet off the bumper in front of you at 60 mph, read signs, maintain their equipment, be courteous, or remember that they're not, in fact, pro drivers in real-deal race cars. And sometimes, pretty rarely though, these are people driving commercial vehicles. (The professionals.)

I don't think it'll be a bloodbath, quite the opposite. But I also am very aware that one inconsiderate moron can change the course of my family's life very drastically.

There are limits on every Constitutional right, where one's exercise of that right begins to intrude on another's exercise of their rights. ("Fire" in a crowded theater, slander, and liable come to move.) I'm okay with the idea that the Second isn't any more absolute than the first.

Heck, let's require 40 hours of high speed training for everyone who wants to carry. And have the government pay for it!

[owejia]

Just need to live your life, the only person you can control is the one looking back at you in the mirror. When your day to die arrives you will die. Or maybe just elect another democrat president and congress , they will take all those evil guns and everybody's safety will be assured, living in that utopia they claim will happen when the government controls every thing. No worries!!!!! Remember those four little words that stand between you and complete gov. control " Shall not be Infringed", not in  any other part of the Constitution, only the Second Amendment.  

[DaveTN]

I didn’t know this existed, but here is a website that tracks unintentional shootings. (The numbers to be used later in anti-gun legislation).

Those of you that want to tie our constitutional rights to this number will be able to compare it when the new laws kick in. I just put a 2018 to now sample in, but it goes back to 2015. There are stories and news links to go with many of these shootings on the site.

It doesn’t tell you how many of the adults involved had been through a carry class. I doubt that would have made much difference. Do people really need to attend a class to know; keep guns away from kids? Or to unload their guns before they clean them? Of course they don't.

Quote

 

https://safetennesseeproject.org/unintentional-shootings/

Tennessee has a problem with unintentional shootings. Many of these involve children.

There is no federal database tracking these incidents and even organizations that do try to track them by searching news stories and police reports understand that accidental shootings are under reported.

Although the term most commonly used to describe these types of shooting is “accidental” we do not see them as accidents. Each of these incidents was 100% preventable. Understanding and practicing gun safety is responsible gun ownership. Handling or cleaning guns around others without verifying that the gun is unloaded is not safe.  And, a vital part of responsible gun ownership is safe storage of firearms. When not in use, guns should be locked and unloaded. Always. Far too many loaded and unlocked guns are easily accessible to children AND TEENS and result in preventable tragedies.

Note: The shootings involving children include both incidents where a child unintentionally shoots themselves or another person as well as incidents where an adult unintentionally shoots a child.  In this context, unintentional shootings involving children indicate a minor child was a victim, unintentional shootings involving adults indicate an adult unintentionally shot another adult.

>> Total unintentional shootings involving/injuring children: 6
Unintentional shootings involving children with no injuries: 0
Unintentional shootings involving children resulting in injury: 4
Unintentional shootings involving children resulting in death: 2

> Total unintentional shootings involving/injuring adults: 3
Unintentional shootings involving adults with no injuries: 0
Unintentional shootings involving adults resulting in injury: 4
Unintentional shootings involving adults resulting in death: 0

Total unintentional shootings so far in 2020: 9
...............................................................

UNINTENTIONAL SHOOTINGS TRACKED IN 2019Section 1

>> Total unintentional shootings involving/injuring children: 27
Unintentional shootings involving children with no injuries: 1
Unintentional shootings involving children resulting in injury: 18
Unintentional shootings involving children resulting in death: 8

> Total unintentional shootings involving/injuring adults: 23
Unintentional shootings involving adults with no injuries: 0
Unintentional shootings involving adults resulting in injury: 17
Unintentional shootings involving adults resulting in death: 4

Total unintentional shootings in 2019: 50
...................................................................

UNINTENTIONAL SHOOTINGS TRACKED IN 2018

>> Total unintentional shootings involving/injuring children: 25
Unintentional shootings involving children with no injuries: 1
Unintentional shootings involving children resulting in injury: 17*
Unintentional shootings involving children resulting in death: 8

> Total unintentional shootings involving/injuring adults: 25
Unintentional shootings involving adults with no injuries: 0
Unintentional shootings involving adults resulting in injury: 19*
Unintentional shootings involving adults resulting in death: 7

Total unintentional shootings in 2018: 49

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by DaveTN

[Magiccarpetrides]

Dave a lot of adults don't realize you can't brandish a firearm...not to mention there are still some people that can't pass the 7yd shooting test (?!??!?) so for that reason yes I think a class is reasonable if you desire to carry in places not already legally allowed by the Castle Law(doctrine?).

[DaveTN]

On 2/28/2020 at 3:42 PM, Magiccarpetrides said:

they can keep stupid people from carrying a gun in public areas that they were too cheap, too dumb, or too inaccurate to legally do when a carry permit was required....im for the enhanced penalties on theft I am not at all for permitless carry.  I mean if you can't hit a 7yd target and pass a test where they pretty much give you the answers....do you really need to be hip holstering it at wally world?

I understand fully what you are saying. I simply don’t agree with it or think it will change anything. There have been many stories on here from members that have witnessed people do stupid things or have the inability to properly shoot the HCP test; and were passed.

My friend and his wife took the HCP course. She couldn’t pass the shooting test using a quality revolver. They let her come back and shoot it again. She used a scoped .22 handgun.

However, people aren’t generally getting shot because the shooter missed. They are getting shot because someone is either careless or they intentionally shot someone. Our states training won’t stop that. Many of the shootings we see are by people that are trained and knew better.

I refuse to believe that you have to go to a state mandated training class to be taught to not leave a loaded weapon laying around, or to clear a weapon before “playing” with it.

[Magiccarpetrides]

DaveTN the blood on the streets will be on the hands of people like you!!!  **Sarcasm**  your probably right...stupid is stupid and things will probably be just fine either way but I just don't think its unreasonable for someone to have to take a class to carry in public that's not their home business or car.  Just like I think a driving test is also very practical, a marriage class is a good idea, a license to do nails, run a business, and lots of other things but ya know im sure im in the minority...but I digress...

[E4 No More]

Unbelievable that some people on this GUN FORUM think that there should be a mandatory training class for a God-given right. Do I think that it's a good idea to get some training? Of course it is! But mandating it for a God-given right is ludicrous. The mandatory class that they have now for the HCP is useless as far as responsible gun-handling and accuracy are concerned, and it's just checking a box for the state. Heck, in my class they didn't even score the targets. The only use that I got from it was understanding Tennessee's laws in the matter.

[DaveTN]

35 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Unbelievable that some people on this GUN FORUM think that there should be a mandatory training class for a God-given right. Do I think that it's a good idea to get some training? Of course it is! But mandating it for a God-given right is ludicrous. The mandatory class that they have now for the HCP is useless as far as responsible gun-handling and accuracy are concerned, and it's just checking a box for the state. Heck, in my class they didn't even score the targets. The only use that I got from it was understanding Tennessee's laws in the matter.

And that’s my point. I’m not saying people don’t need training. Absolutely they do. And if they don’t get it, they risk losing everything they have in a civil suit, or possibly ending up in prison if they don’t fully understand the laws. But rights don’t have government training class requirements.

If the state, or some group of concerned citizens think it would be a problem; they could offer free training classes. Heck, an online class can teach you not to leave your loaded gun laying around where kids can get it, or a laundry list of other ignorant things you shouldn’t do could be covered. For free!

If Constitutional Carry gets passed there would be no real need for the concealed carry class. So, the training site would already be in place. The HCP classes would remain in place for those that want to carry beyond our state borders.

Two things that I said many times should be offered by local government: free seminars by the local DA’s office covering gun laws and the use of deadly force, and free handgun training classes at Police ranges for local residents. If those two things were combined by a city or county the people could be trained at the range on gun safety and accuracy instead of getting bogged down in the gun laws, because that was covered by the DA.

When I was a cop if we had questions about a law, we could either stop in or call the States Attorney’s office and they would answer our questions. Obviously, they wouldn’t have time to do that with the public, but they could schedule seminars. But it probably won’t happen, and I suspect that is because being attorney’s they fear the liability of training citizens more than they care about the lives it might save, or the people it might keep out of prison.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I never said you have to pass a class to own the gun...just to carry one outside of your home, work, car.  You know opposing viewpoints and what not...and owning a gun is not a God given right lol (some people don't even believe in a higher power)...its a United States given right.

[E4 No More]

12 minutes ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

I never said you have to pass a class to own the gun...just to carry one outside of your home, work, car.  You know opposing viewpoints and what not...and owning a gun is not a God given right lol (some people don't even believe in a higher power)...its a United States given right.

That sounds very liberal of you.

[DaveTN]

15 minutes ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

I never said you have to pass a class to own the gun...just to carry one outside of your home, work, car.  You know opposing viewpoints and what not...and owning a gun is not a God given right lol (some people don't even believe in a higher power)...its a United States given right.

If that’s directed at me; I never said you indicated someone needed a class to own a gun. You just want a 2nd amendment right to have an asterisk with a training class requirement. And you certainly have a right to have that opinion. As you can see; many agree with you. Many that see themselves as pro-gun. 

And yes, it is a God Given Right, it’s an inalienable right. As I’ve said many times before, my right to protect myself and my family doesn’t come from a dog like the 2nd amendment. I believe in God, and what other people believe or don’t believe has zero impact on that. The state of Tennessee disagrees with my beliefs and is more than willing to put me in jail if I violate their laws. I am absolutely sure of that.

[xtriggerman]

OK, Let me add one more thing here that maybe is a great compromise between the 2 sides of the argument. Back when I was 16, I took my hunter safety training class in upstate NY. It was 1975. We all had to watch a film of what can go wrong when stupid rears its head with a loaded weapon. In one segment it shown the result of a guy that saw a buck standing in the road, so he pulled up his rifle and shot, missing the deer but hit a guy coming around the corner behind the deer. The bullet punched threw the windshield and hit the guy square in the head. The picture was very graphic of the guy's head against a bloody mushy looking head rest. A couple years ago, here in Crossville a couple left their kids in the parked car to go into the Verison store. The 7 or 5 years old found moms hidden revolver and proceeded to shoot the 3 year old in the head while mom & dad were in the store.

  My point to all this is a graphic picture is worth a Sh** load of words or even training in a certain way. It can be down right inspiring. There was a sort series out once called "the many faces of death". In one segment Joe forest ranger was filmed trying to control a huge alligator in a pond with a lasso while standing in a small boat, One jerk of the gators head flung Joe ranger into the water and the vid showed the gator making bubble gum out of Joe. I don't think I'll forget about and thing so graphic as these type of real life instances. I would think that If the victim's families gave permission to use actual seen photos of these type of results of stupid, and a comprehensive DVD was made to be handed out to all "new" hand gun owners, It just might stimulate some deeper thought in the stupid pocket to look into not being "THOSE" guys or gals.  The cost of punching out a DVD is pennies. I think it would be the best bang for the buck in "Hello"...... with your deadly weapon. Visual stimulation is about these best you can get aside from being bled personally by stupid.

[DaveTN]

Okay, but why do we need the cost of a DVD? Put them on the training site.

Don’t they show gory films like “Death on the Highways” in Drivers ED anymore? They may help but plenty of people still drink and drive. Plenty that are even first responders and see it firsthand.

[mikegideon]

21 hours ago, gregintenn said:

I joined the TFA last week, and would challenge all of you to do the same. I am also an NRA life member. I expect the NRA will try and claim credit for this, but it seems more local to me.

I have been a TFA member for a few years.

[Chucktshoes]

24 minutes ago, mikegideon said:

I have been a TFA member for a few years.

Joined a few months back. 

[gregintenn]

2 hours ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

I never said you have to pass a class to own the gun...just to carry one outside of your home, work, car.  You know opposing viewpoints and what not...and owning a gun is not a God given right lol (some people don't even believe in a higher power)...its a United States given right.

You'd be incorrect. Government does not have the power to grant rights. You are born with rights. Government can only infringe upon them.

[Worriedman]

5 hours ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

Dave a lot of adults don't realize you can't brandish a firearm...not to mention there are still some people that can't pass the 7yd shooting test (?!??!?) so for that reason yes I think a class is reasonable if you desire to carry in places not already legally allowed by the Castle Law(doctrine?).

But you can "brandish a firearm".

TCA 39-11-611
(b)
(1) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.
 

(2) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

(B) The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

(C) The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

Drawing your weapon to threaten can be construed to be brandishing, but if you have a permit and are in a place you have a Right to be, and. are not engaged in criminal activity, you can do so.

[Chucktshoes]

5 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

You'd be incorrect. Government does not have the power to grant rights. You are born with rights. Government can only infringe upon them.

Exactly. Our entire system of government was founded on the idea that all rights reside in the people individually who cede certain powers to the government for the purpose of an orderly functioning society. Government grants nothing to the people. It is the people who grant the government its very existence. 

[Worriedman]

3 hours ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

I never said you have to pass a class to own the gun...just to carry one outside of your home, work, car.  You know opposing viewpoints and what not...and owning a gun is not a God given right lol (some people don't even believe in a higher power)...its a United States given right.

If you have, and I am pretty sure you have not, read the first few passages of the Tennessee Constitution you would know that our Founders had to say:

ARTICLE I.

Declaration of Rights.

Section 1. That all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; for the advancement of those ends they have at all times, an unalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.

Section 2. That government being instituted for the common benefit, the doctrine of non-resistance against arbitrary power and oppression is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."

"unalienable" means government can not take it away from you, "indefeasible" means you can not give it away even if you want to.  Whether you believe there is a God or not, our,  (I do not know if they were yours or not) intended the People to be in charge and not the dang government.

You will not want to continue to argue with me if we have a right to arms here, because we do, you may wish to let LE be your protector, but they are  not, it is not their job, you try to give it away, you are being slavish.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Worriedman

[DaveTN]

25 minutes ago, Worriedman said:

But you can "brandish a firearm".

Drawing your weapon to threaten can be construed to be brandishing, but if you have a permit and are in a place you have a Right to be, and. are not engaged in criminal activity, you can do so.

There is no law against brandishing in this state. If you pull your weapon because of a threat, or you aren’t threatening anyone in pulling your weapon; it is legal. If you aren’t justified, and your intent is to threaten someone its aggravated assault.

Example: Hey Joe! Check out my new carry gun. (as you pull your coat back.) Unless you are in a place where carry isn’t legal; you are okay.

Another example: Joe! If you don’t get off my property it will be bad for you. (As you pull your jacket back to reveal your gun to your neighbor.) That’s aggravated assault and you don’t have to touch that gun. You do however get a free stay at the local jail.

However….. the new concealed carry only laws may have something in them for those people. I haven’t looked at that. But searching Tennessee Code Annotated for brandish or brandishing; there is nothing.

[Worriedman]

1 hour ago, mikegideon said:

I have been a TFA member for a few years.

Me too...

[Magiccarpetrides]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

You'd be incorrect. Government does not have the power to grant rights. You are born with rights. Government can only infringe upon them.

What rights exactly are we born with?  Running around naked?  Taking anything we please?  Assaulting anyone we choose?  Wearing Clothes?  Carrying a gun?  Wielding a sword?  

We all have absolute freedom but seeing as how none of us own our own private island the government (local/state/national) tells us what we can do without penalty and what we can't.  Your argument makes no sense though it sounds good when spoken aloud lol.