Guns stolen from cars!!!

[gregintenn]

7 hours ago, btq96r said:

If we keep prefacing "gun owner" with the adjective "responsible", we can't shy away from a conversation on what responsible actually means.  Police will always be behind criminals in regard to this kind of theft, so "cops need to fix it" or something to that effect ignores fundamental operating conditions.

I'm all for prosecuting those who steal guns to the fullest extent, but I think it's fair to think about what liability gun owners have for securing their firearms if they're used illegally.  I wouldn't go so far as to mandate locked (case or trigger/barrel lock) inside a locked vehicle, but if someone has the gun in the console or glove compartment without any lock besides the door, I think there is some level of liability for how secure keep (or don't keep it) when it's not in their positive possession.

I can see an argument that government areas shouldn't be able to restrict carry, but I still think a private business can exercise that prerogative if they wish.  Needing to do basic day to day things will eventually bring you up against a no guns allowed scenario, and at that point, I think we have a duty to do more than just check the box when it comes to securing our firearms.

I usually have great interest in reading your posts. I don’t always agree with you, but you make me think. That’s a good thing. That being said, you are off the rails on this one. There’s no logical reason you or I should be liable for the criminal actions of someone who violated us.

Edited February 19, 2020 by gregintenn

[owejia]

If you leave a firearm in your vehicle, which is an extension of your property "home". Will that carry over to the stealing a fire arm from your home also? Maybe we need to just let everbody steal or do what ever they want to do with no consciences. Sounds like what the democrats are advocating for illegals. Makes perfect sense to me. Vote democrat and keep supporting the lunatics.  

[btq96r]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

There’s no logical reason you or I should be liable for the criminal actions of someone who violated us.

Correct.  It's not the criminal actions of someone who violated us that I want to hold civilly liable, it's those among us who fail to take adequate measures (and I realize there is room for a wide debate on that term) to secure their firearms from theft.  There is some need to debate what would be considered a contributing factor through negligence.

I'm just not sure I think out of sight in a locked car is sufficient for places where car break ins aren't out of the norm.  I'll admit that I don't have all the answers, but I'm opposed to the conversation.   I think this issue calls for some thought given the prevalence of vehicle break ins we see within urban areas.

[Smith]

Prosecute the thief's. We have a real problem in my area and it's generally the same small group that are arrested and turned back out in the judicial process. There are three teens that have stolen and wrecked over 5 vehicles in this small area in the last 6-7 months and have never seen jail time. Not to mention the dozens of property thefts from cars. Confirmed from the officers patrolling. They're known, roam openly and freely, on numerous security cams, and nothing.

This is the real problem.

[Sunfish]

 The real problem starts when you ask people to do their job. Put them punks in big boy jail and make them pay restitution for loss and damages. Don't wait until they kill somebody. If their Mammy don't like it let her pay for it and keep them in at night and in school.

[10-Ring]

15 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Dave, you label me as a cop basher, and I've earned it, but this isn't a police issue. It is a court issue. If we as a society do not decide to actually punish criminals harshly, we will continue to get more of the same.

I'd like to live in a society where locking one's doors is optional. That can happen again, but no one seems to have the stomach to fix the problem.

Neither of you are wrong.  Thought I'd throw this in, as it may she's some light on part of this problem.  My buddy has a camera on his driveway that alerts him when motion is detected.  He gets an alert at 2am one morning, checks the camera and there is a guy trying to break into his truck.  Once the guy starts beating on his window he goes outside and the guy runs away.  My buddy calls the police and they come out and take a report, the video was clear enough that they recognized the guy.  Cop said that even though they knew who the perp was they couldn't do anything because he hadn't actually broken into the vehicle.  Apparently these people are free to walk neighborhoods checking to see if vehicles are locked without fear of charges unless they forcibly enter.  

[DaveTN]

I’m amazed at what I’m reading here, because of who it is coming from.

That any gun owner would think I should be arrested because my car was burglarized. Or that I am irresponsible because I put my gun out of sight and lock my vehicle.

But those of you concerned about your homes may be right. If they think it’s your responsibility to make your car a fortress, the next logical step is your house. According to at least one that is especially true if you happen to live in an area with a lot of burglaries.

 

[TripleGGG]

What happened to each person is responsible for THEIR actions?

I lock my vehicle religiously but I feel even if unlocked and someone robs me anything further is on them.  So if I lock or dont lock my doors at home and someone comes in and steals a gun that's on me?  If we blame the innocent and the victims, we are starting down an extreme slippery slope. Heck it's all but open season on police officers. And yes there are bad apples everywhere, but condoning what I see happening against police officers sickens me. 

Lawmakers (politicians) have made a joke of our judicial system. My brother is a warden of a prison in NC. You just might be amazed at the laws and rules that are forced on them every year to protect the rights of the convicts. I'm sorry but once you commit a crime you changed the rules for yourself and the penalties should be stiff. God Bless the police and district attorneys navigating such a mess.

Just my humble opinion. 

[FUJIMO]

I believe the following gives you a glimpse of the future. I am sure this is happening nationally because of the laws in place to "protect dem poor chillens" but I'm sure it rarely makes national headlines. I only know of this one because it's been ongoing for years and I've had several people I know work there and quit as the story narrates . My fathers former neighbor was beaten with a metal school type chair to the point of losing consciousness and was rushed to the ER with head injuries. The attacker went back to his playstation and porn. My point of posting this is the GUN IS NOT THE PROBLEM as it is has and always will be an inanimate object. Its humans and how we are devolving as a society. We are not only NOT rearing at home or broken home but we are conditioning adolescents to emerge from "kiddie jail" ready to be full time thugs and thieves and already jumped into and rising in a local gang.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/investigations/records-more-than-40-incidents-of-violence-unrest-at-mountain-view-since-2016/51-11ce8847-2108-47aa-bec9-46fc961a05f3

[Grayfox54]

Just to clarify my earlier post, I fully agree with btq96r that many gun owners need to be more responsible, However, I am in no way advocating that they be held responsible for the acts of a criminal. 

Many of these kid criminals are the result of failed parenting. I've personally witnessed a 13 year old tell a LEO straight to his face that he would kill another kid. But when Momma showed up, she absolutely denied that her little angel would ever do anything wrong. Just wouldn't hear it and said the Police and several witnesses were all liars. That's what we're dealing with. 

[DaveTN]

13 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Just to clarify my earlier post, I fully agree with btq96r that many gun owners need to be more responsible, However, I am in no way advocating that they be held responsible for the acts of a criminal. 

Many of these kid criminals are the result of failed parenting. I've personally witnessed a 13 year old tell a LEO straight to his face that he would kill another kid. But when Momma showed up, she absolutely denied that her little angel would ever do anything wrong. Just wouldn't hear it and said the Police and several witnesses were all liars. That's what we're dealing with. 

Glad to hear it. Because I interpreted your previous post as saying that after talking to LEO’s, you determined that I am not a responsible gun owner. Glad to hear that is not what you were saying. Because as a gun owner and a former Police Officer, who handled countless burglaries to an auto, I find it appalling that anyone would want to hold a law-abiding citizen responsible criminally or civilly for the criminal acts of another.

Who or why they are doing it, or the failures of how kids are raised don’t really have anything to do with it.

[Grayfox54]

To clarify even further, I still believe than leaving guns in vehicles is a bad idea. Vehicles are surprisingly easy to break into. A skilled thief can be in and gone in under a minute. However, I also understand that sometimes you just don't have another choice when going about your daily life.  Its the concept of a "truck/car gun" or a weapon that permanently resides inside a vehicle that I find questionable. 

[owejia]

All this talk about responsible gun owners means what exactly? No where in the United States Constitution or in any of the Amendments is anything about responsible gun owners. The Second Amendment tells us who can own a firearm and nothing about responsible ownership, and this ownership or possession shall not be infringed by government. This political crap is totally out of control and will probably result in a civil war 2 at some point in time. The public ,"government" education system has been broken for years and the reason no one is held responsible anymore. You are taught from pre-school forward that it is always some one else's fault. Don't believe this just happened by chance, took a lot of planning to get to this point. The lunatics are in charge of the asylum, God help us all.  

[btq96r]

Let's try this from the bottom up and see where the line for some folks is.

Should this be a criminal statue as it's written:

Quote

 

Tennessee Code Title 39. Criminal Offenses § 39-17-1313

...the holder of a valid handgun carry permit recognized in Tennessee may, unless expressly prohibited by federal law, transport and store a firearm or firearm ammunition in the permit holder's motor vehicle, as defined in § 55-1-103 , while on or utilizing any public or private parking area if:

(1) The permit holder's motor vehicle is parked in a location where it is permitted to be;  and

(2) The firearm or ammunition being transported or stored in the motor vehicle:

(A) Is kept from ordinary observation if the permit holder is in the motor vehicle;  or

(B) Is kept from ordinary observation and locked within the trunk, glove box, or interior of the person's motor vehicle or a container securely affixed to such motor vehicle if the permit holder is not in the motor vehicle.

 

If someone leaves a firearm in their vehicle, unlocked, visible to a normal glance (ie: on the dashboard, or in the passenger seat)...how liable is that firearm owner should a criminal steal the gun, then go shoot someone with it?  We have a law against that currently, so we already have some line of responsibility a gun owner has to take and could be prosecuted criminally for failing to do...but should it be that way? 

Is that all we're willing to accept, or do we even want that rolled back, because it's not the gun owners fault if a criminal does bad things with the gun they stole?

We can roll this out...what about locked car, glove box or center console, just not locked?  Because as I'm reading the law, an unlocked glove box or unlocked center console isn't compliant with this law.  Nor would a lock box somewhere else if it can be carried away.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is a line somewhere.  I haven't seen anyone say, "doesn't matter if the window is open and my gun is right there, it's the criminal's fault".  That's at least in part because I doubt believe anyone thinks that is a reasonable position.  So, if we can agree that a line exists somewhere, where is that line?

[chances R]

you have to treat it like money.  How would you leave money?  Leave it visible, laying on the dash or seat with the window rolled down, or even visible with the car locked?  A little common sense, but we all know how rare that is.

 

[DaveTN]

2 hours ago, btq96r said:

So, if we can agree that a line exists somewhere, where is that line?

Agree that there is a line where the victim of a burglary can be charged criminally because of the criminal acts committed by another??? No we can’t agree.

Not only can we not agree, but the courts will never uphold it. I don’t doubt that this sounds good to the liberals in the Metro Government, or that they may even get something like this passed; but it defies common sense.

Because there are people that would try to make them believe that gun owners will leave them lying on the seat or dash with the windows rolled down.

Is that how these guns are being stolen, plain view with the windows down?? Has even one gun been stolen because it was in plain view with the windows down?

 

[btq96r]

40 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Agree that there is a line where the victim of a burglary can be charged criminally because of the criminal acts committed by another??? No we can’t agree.

Not only can we not agree, but the courts will never uphold it. I don’t doubt that this sounds good to the liberals in the Metro Government, or that they may even get something like this passed; but it defies common sense.

Because there are people that would try to make them believe that gun owners will leave them lying on the seat or dash with the windows rolled down.

Is that how these guns are being stolen, plain view with the windows down?? Has even one gun been stolen because it was in plain view with the windows down?

 

If someone has a gun sitting in a place where it can be seen and it gets stolen then used in a crime, by the law of our state, they're able to be charged.  I think that the will will be far less to make that charge than for a court to uphold a conviction of such.

But I'm serious...what responsibility (and I'm not talking criminal charges here) do we have to secure our weapons when they're not under our positive control?

[chances R]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

 

Is that how these guns are being stolen, plain view with the windows down?? Has even one gun been stolen because it was in plain view with the windows down?

 

Never left the window down, but  gone are the days of a gun rack in the back window of a pick-up.

Edited February 20, 2020 by chances R

[peejman]

3 hours ago, chances R said:

you have to treat it like money.  How would you leave money?  Leave it visible, laying on the dash or seat with the window rolled down, or even visible with the car locked?  A little common sense, but we all know how rare that is.

 

So if you left $20 on a table at work, it's your fault if I steal it?

I'm not following this line of thinking that criminals stealing things that aren't locked up or nailed down is the owner's fault.   

[Dirtshooter]

So following some of the comments. A person could break into a house, then into the gun safe, steal gun(s) commit crimes and the homeowner would be partially responsible. How asinine is that??? I will say though that a gun cable lock in those instances you can't carry would be a good idea, I have trucks and SUV's no trunk to put them in. But I will admit there are some really nice albeit expensive gun vaults for your vehicles. I agree that this is mostly a parent problem, if you knew where little Johnny or Leroy was after supper, we wouldn't have near the crime. Make his butt stay at the house or let him suffer the consequences of being some guys girlfriend in the big house and he may straighten up, that is unless he is gay!!

[chances R]

17 minutes ago, peejman said:

So if you left $20 on a table at work, it's your fault if I steal it?

I'm not following this line of thinking that criminals stealing things that aren't locked up or nailed down is the owner's fault.   

Yes, it is my carelessness because I know there are people around that have no respect for property or my life for that matter.  BUT NO WHERE  did I say stealing someone's property should the victim be culpable.  But then again, nor should one make it easy to be victimized.  I have an utility trailer beside my driveway....been there 20 + years.  It is properly locked.  Ask 3 or 4 neighbors why they don't have their trailers now.  Their fault, well sort of.  Should the thief be punished?  Absolutely, but never caught, damage done, someone shot, etc. etc.

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, btq96r said:

If someone has a gun sitting in a place where it can be seen and it gets stolen then used in a crime, by the law of our state, they're able to be charged.  I think that the will will be far less to make that charge than for a court to uphold a conviction of such.

But I'm serious...what responsibility (and I'm not talking criminal charges here) do we have to secure our weapons when they're not under our positive control?

We have a responsibility to not be criminally reckless. You are trying to go down a path painted with careless gun owners leaving their guns laying on the seat, or in the console with the windows rolled down. Is that how these guns are being stolen? My WAG guess here is No, never.

They are being stolen in auto burglaries where vehicles are being entered, probably by force, but at least illegally (keys, slim Jims, etc). When I put my gun out of sight and lock my doors; that’s all the responsibility I have.

And in your scenario where someone has a gun sitting in a place where it can be seen and it gets stolen then used in a crime, who is going to testify? Are you going to put the person that burglarized the car and then committed another crime on the witness stand? I’m not saying you couldn’t find a gun hating DA to try that; but without a confession that isn’t going anywhere.

Its bad enough that our state refuses to recognize our 2nd amendment right and we have to deal with it as a privilege we buy from the state, but now you want to charge us criminally.

[peejman]

12 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

We have a responsibility to not be criminally reckless.

I don't see anything here that gets me to a place where my not making it hard to steal something is my fault. 

 

Title 39 - Criminal Offenses
Chapter 13 - Offenses Against Person
Part 1 - Assaultive Offenses
§ 39-13-103 - Reckless endangerment.

Universal Citation: TN Code § 39-13-103 (2014) 

(a) A person commits an offense who recklessly engages in conduct that places or may place another person in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

(b) (1) Reckless endangerment is a Class A misdemeanor;

(2) Reckless endangerment committed with a deadly weapon is a Class E felony;

(3) Reckless endangerment by discharging a firearm into a habitation, as defined under § 39-14-401, is a Class C felony, unless the habitation was unoccupied at the time of the offense, in which event it is a Class D felony;

(4) In addition to the penalty authorized by this subsection (b), the court shall assess a fine of fifty dollars ($50.00) to be collected as provided in § 55-10-412(b) and distributed as provided in § 55-10-412(c).

 

I fully understand and agree with the idea that one should be responsible and protective of their things.  But the idea of personal negligence has gotten way out of hand. Stealing is both a crime and a sin. 

[300winmag]

Maybe the pro gun conservative republican legislators should turn the enhanced carry permit into a real enhanced permit this spring.  That way people with the enhanced permits do not have to leave guns in their cars at places like colleges and other properties.  That is what enhanced permits are for in other states.  Why would that not work in Tennessee?

 

 

[btq96r]

39 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

We have a responsibility to not be criminally reckless. You are trying to go down a path painted with careless gun owners leaving their guns laying on the seat, or in the console with the windows rolled down. Is that how these guns are being stolen? My WAG guess here is No, never.

They are being stolen in auto burglaries where vehicles are being entered, probably by force, but at least illegally (keys, slim Jims, etc). When I put my gun out of sight and lock my doors; that’s all the responsibility I have.

And in your scenario where someone has a gun sitting in a place where it can be seen and it gets stolen then used in a crime, who is going to testify? Are you going to put the person that burglarized the car and then committed another crime on the witness stand? I’m not saying you couldn’t find a gun hating DA to try that; but without a confession that isn’t going anywhere.

I had to come at it from this wild scenario so I could understand it by creeping up to a point.  Do you think it should be a criminal charge if you failed to lock the car?  

 

41 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Its bad enough that our state refuses to recognize our 2nd amendment right and we have to deal with it as a privilege we buy from the state, but now you want to charge us criminally.

This might be the third or fourth time I've had to clarify this...I have no desire to add to, or create a new criminal law regarding this.  I came into this thread to specifically discuss civil liability.  The conversation has just drifted to criminal because there is an actual law on the books (TCA § 39-17-1313 as I quoted a few posts up), but I'm just making inquires to see if people agree with that law how it's written or what they would change.  I'm not advocating one way or the other except for us to consider this issue.