9mm ammo for personal defense

[nightrunner]

i need some good JHP ammo for personal defense. i know that there some good rounds out there. i am coming from a .45 and know what works in them but now have a 9mm w/a 4.5" barrel and need to know what grain bullet to use and who makes good +P or +P+ ammuniton.

i know that a heavier bullet works better in a longer barrel, at least in .45acp.

147gr.JHP is the heaviest common bullet weight that i am finding, is this acceptable for self defense?

thanks for the help.

[Guest bkelm18]

You'll find many opinions. Personally, I use Federal HST, but just about any round from any of the major manufacturers will suit you fine.

[Guest 70below]

+1 on HST's, I also use Winchester Ranger SXT's which are basically new generation Black Talons without the black "evil" coating. My preference on 9mm is 147's, but will go 124's on occasion depending on availability. I only use 115's for target ammo.

[Oh Shoot]

i need some good JHP ammo for personal defense. i know that there some good rounds out there. i am coming from a .45 and know what works in them but now have a 9mm w/a 4.5" barrel and need to know what grain bullet to use and who makes good +P or +P+ ammuniton.

i know that a heavier bullet works better in a longer barrel, at least in .45acp.

147gr.JHP is the heaviest common bullet weight that i am finding, is this acceptable for self defense?

thanks for the help.

147 gr is generally the heaviest 9mm sold.

Long time debate as to faster/lighter vs heavier/slower 9mm rounds, from 115gr +p+ to 147 gr. Gel tests vary. Only consistent fact is that any quality HP load will probably work plenty well enough in real world on a human bean.

Myself, I've split the diff using 124gr +p Golden Saber.

- OS

[nightrunner]

how about some double tap 147gr. +P or some buffalo bore 147gr. +P+ ? i definetely know that i want +p ammo in jhp and those two are the only ones that are +p rated.

how does 1175fps with 451 ft. lbs of muzzle energy sound? that is the hottest i can find

[Guest bkelm18]

how about some double tap 147gr. +P or some buffalo bore 147gr. +P+ ? i definetely know that i want +p ammo in jhp and those two are the only ones that are +p rated.

how does 1175fps with 451 ft. lbs of muzzle energy sound? that is the hottest i can find

DoubleTap makes good ammo thats loaded pretty hot. 1175fps/451 ft-lbs is pretty good for a 9mm. I've never used Buffalo Bore so I really can't comment on those. Just keep in mind, as I'm sure you know, the hotter its loaded, the more recoil its going to have, making follow up shots a little more complicated but nothing a little practice can't overcome.

[nightrunner]

double taps 147gr. +P offering is 1135fps/421ft.lbs.

[Guest bkelm18]

double taps 147gr. +P offering is 1135fps/421ft.lbs.

Those use the Gold Dot bullet, so those should do the job mighty fine.

[nightrunner]

in reference to the hotter loading/controllability comment. the gun i just had was a ruger P345 shooting hornady 230gr.+p .45acp at 950fps/461ft.lbs. i think i can handle anything made in 9mm going through a XDM

[Guest bkelm18]

in reference to the hotter loading/controllability comment. the gun i just had was a ruger P345 shooting hornady 230gr.+p .45acp at 950fps/461ft.lbs. i think i can handle anything made in 9mm going through a XDM

Wasn't saying you couldn't, just mentioned it was something to keep in mind.

[nightrunner]

Wasn't saying you couldn't, just mentioned it was something to keep in mind.

understood, just giving a reference, i could tell a noticeable difference going from WWB .45 to hornady TAP .45acp+p

[war4peace]

Personally i prefer the Ranger SXT in 127gr. +p+. The follow up shots with them are not that noticeable compared to a regular round. I have seen these things penetrate and open up beautifully. They will get the job done! I also carry Federal Hydroshock in 147gr. although some may argue that is a little heavy for the 9mm. I prefer the 147gr. over the 124gr. because i feel that it is better for penetration.

[PaiMei]

i need some good JHP ammo for personal defense. i know that there some good rounds out there. i am coming from a .45 and know what works in them but now have a 9mm w/a 4.5" barrel and need to know what grain bullet to use and who makes good +P or +P+ ammuniton.

i know that a heavier bullet works better in a longer barrel, at least in .45acp.

147gr.JHP is the heaviest common bullet weight that i am finding, is this acceptable for self defense?

thanks for the help.

Your going to find a lot of opinions on what the best round is. Fact is though not many of us are truly qualified on this matter. I would humbly suggest looking at Dr Gary Roberts information. There is an approved list load here a couple of pages into it...

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

THEY ARE NOT IN ORDER OF PERFORMANCE, SO ANY BULLET ON THE LIST IS CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE.

9mm

Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)

Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)

Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)

Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)

Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)

Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)

Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)

Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)

Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)

Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)

I would pick anything from the list, and find what feeds reliably in your pistol and stick with it. There has been a similar thread here as well...

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10395&highlight=gary+roberts

Edited February 15, 2009 by PaiMei

[Smith]

The debate rages, but what I have generally found in 9mm is that velcoity/weight ratio is the key to expansion. Most of what I have seen shows 147g doesn't move quickly enough for its weight and 115g may be a little light. That being said I tend to go with a 124g +p HST or Ranger-T/SXT. I assumed 147g +p would get similar results but I haven't seen test to prove it. Rather I have seen the opposite. There doesn't seem to be enough powder capacity to push 147 (even in +P+) to necessary velocities.

When it's all said and done no one knows and it is what you feel most comfortable with as almost every bullet and weight has plusses and minuses. Just remeber .45 and 9mm operate on completley different principles and so the logic of one will not tranlate to the other.

[nightrunner]

nsnate, what do you mean operate on differnet principles? only thing i see is that .45acp was designed for 230gr. and a 5" barrel and that combo works and shorter barrels and lighter bullets were to to compensate for each other. and .45 is big and slow and 9mm is light and fast.

anybody know what the first 9mm cartridge had for a bullet and what length barrel it was fired from?

[Garufa]

anybody know what the first 9mm cartridge had for a bullet and what length barrel it was fired from?

Cartridge was developed for the Luger which has about 4" barrel. I believe original bullet weight was 124gr but I also think was loaded a little hot to work the toggle action.

[Smith]

nsnate, what do you mean operate on differnet principles? only thing i see is that .45acp was designed for 230gr. and a 5" barrel and that combo works and shorter barrels and lighter bullets were to to compensate for each other. and .45 is big and slow and 9mm is light and fast.

anybody know what the first 9mm cartridge had for a bullet and what length barrel it was fired from?

While I'm no expert the way it was relayed to me was like boxers. .45 is like a lumbering heavy weight who relies on shear mass to exert power. He is slower but more power behind a his punch due to the mass behind it. 9mm is akin to a middleweight that has tremendous power but relies heavily on speed and quickness to transfer the power of his punch. while the analogy has obvious holes it made sense to me.

In a .45 you want the biggest heaviest bullet because speed is not really a factor. In 9mm, velocity is the main factor. So the size and speed relationship is critical when choosing a load. That is why .357 SIG and .357 Mag are such powerful and effective rounds. Different principles to achieve effectiveness.

[CatsEye]

I carry the 124gr +P HST.

[threeshot]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

This is a review of various author's books and the conflicting statements vs the data presented in their books.

The impression this article and other articles that I have read is the 147gr JHP is the best choice for 9mm.

Edited to add the following:

I had shorten the title of my post in order to fit limited number of characters allowed in the title. The full title is Book Review: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study

Also, that 147gr is recommended in 9mm when using JHP.

Edited February 15, 2009 by threeshot
Clarification

[Smith]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

This is a review of various author's books and the conflicting statements vs the data presented in their books.

The impression this article and other articles that I have read is the 147gr JHP is the best choice for 9mm.

Edited to add the following:

I had shorten the title of my post in order to fit limited number of characters allowed in the title. The full title is Book Review: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study

Also, that 147gr is recommended in 9mm when using JHP.

If you check the date on that (1992) I think you will find it outdated and that the consensus has changed since then.

[threeshot]

If you check the date on that (1992) I think you will find it outdated and that the consensus has changed since then.

The greatest challenage I have encountered when trying to research what is the most effective handgun caliber or bullet of a given caliber is to find credible research verses internet opinions or informal testing.

Another example regarding the eternal debate of faster bullets using hollow points (9mm) vs slower but larger diameter hollow points (.45) is from 1989, the FBI's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Conclusions

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44

Part of this report came from the analysis of Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto" from the FBI in 1987.

nsnate02, Do not take the above examples as an attack on you or your research. We both know that this topic enters into the realm of politics and religion debates.

I am willing to accept new empirical results to use a different grain of bullet for a given caliber.

Can you post links to the newer credible research that recommends something else other than 147gr for JHP in 9mm or other calibers?

[Oh Shoot]

...

Can you post links to the newer credible research that recommends something else other than 147gr for JHP in 9mm or other calibers?

"Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

Note that 147 gr 9mm is no bigger (in diameter) than 124 or 115 gr 9mm bullet. I think that was the context of the "bigger" comment in the FBI report.

Even though bullet expansion is not a consistent variable in real life use, it still figures into "bigger". Assuming both penetrate deeply enough, a 115 or 124 gr that expands more than a 147 gr. is the bigger bullet.

- OS

[threeshot]

"Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

Note that 147 gr 9mm is no bigger (in diameter) than 124 or 115 gr 9mm bullet. I think that was the context of the "bigger" comment in the FBI report.

Even though bullet expansion is not a consistent variable in real life use, it still figures into "bigger". Assuming both penetrate deeply enough, a 115 or 124 gr that expands more than a 147 gr. is the bigger bullet.

- OS

Actually, the FBI was testing the 9mm and .45 calibers as well as the questions surrounding hollow point effectiveness and reliability.

[Oh Shoot]

Actually, the FBI was testing the 9mm and .45 calibers as well as the questions surrounding hollow point effectiveness and reliability.

Correct.

And they would say that given the same penetration, the .45 would be preferable to 9mm because it's bigger.

But in the context of this thread, 147 gr 9mm is not necessarily "bigger" than 124 or even 115 gr 9mm.

- OS