"Breaking News" Kobe Bryant Killed in Helicopter Crash

[Omega]

43 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

No one is elevating him to sainthood status. He was exceptional in his field and one of the few good role models for kids in the game. If that had been Jerry Miculek, Julie Golob, or even Shane Coley, it would have been talked about here (because they are exceptional in their field) but probably not on the news much.

When a few people are morning their loss; it won’t make national news. When hundreds of thousands are; it will.

Which speaks volumes of our (society at large) priorities. We hold the lives of celebrities, who do nothing but entertain us, on a pedestal while we hardly knowledge those who lay their lives on the line for our way of life.  But that is ok, speaking for me, I did not do it for idolization or even gratitude but for my own sense of patriotism.  But I refuse to pander to the masses that insist on holding these people in such high regard.  I'll acknowledge their death, and wish their family well, but that is as far as I'll go.

[DaveTN]

Nevermind

Edited January 28, 2020 by DaveTN

[No_0ne]

On 1/27/2020 at 9:22 AM, Erik88 said:

It's starting to look like pilot error is likely. It looks like the pilot thought he was at a much higher altitude and visibility was poor. The last transmission before they drop off radar is ATC warning him he's too low.

A lot of aviation experts on Reddit are saying they shouldn't have been flying in those conditions.

 

 

ATC told him that he was too low for flight following, which means at the altitude he was flying his radar signature was either being lost in the ground clutter, or like a lot of ATC in congested areas, radar was only being provided at higher altitudes to prevent such loss.  At no point in the transmission referenced did ATC warn him that he was "flying too low", in fact its doubtful that he was being seen on radar at all ( the controller asked him to "ident", which means to briefly boost the transmission of the onboard transponder to help identify specific traffic in a crowded environment) or,  if he was seen, he had reported VFR conditions, which to the controller would mean that the pilot had sufficient visual references to see that for himself.  Obviously, in retrospect, he was flying too low for the terrain, but nothing in that transmission would indicate that the controllers were concerned about his altitude during that time period.

[DaveTN]

It sounds to me like they are preparing to try to lay blame on whoever cleared him to take-off. Unless it’s so bad nothing can fly; that’s on the pilot, who is the only one that knows his individual abilities.

I used to fly with a friend for work. When the weather was questionable, he used to always say “It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.”

And if they weren’t tracking him on radar, how did they get the information about his speed variance?

[Erik88]

1 hour ago, No_0ne said:

ATC told him that he was too low for flight following, which means at the altitude he was flying his radar signature was either being lost in the ground clutter, or like a lot of ATC in congested areas, radar was only being provided at higher altitudes to prevent such loss.  At no point in the transmission referenced did ATC warn him that he was "flying too low", in fact its doubtful that he was being seen on radar at all ( the controller asked him to "ident", which means to briefly boost the transmission of the onboard transponder to help identify specific traffic in a crowded environment) or,  if he was seen, he had reported VFR conditions, which to the controller would mean that the pilot had sufficient visual references to see that for himself.  Obviously, in retrospect, he was flying too low for the terrain, but nothing in that transmission would indicate that the controllers were concerned about his altitude during that time period.

 

You're correct. I misinterpreted that last transmission. That YouTube channel has since released a follow up video that breaks it down. I still think they will conclude the pilot was the root cause of the crash. Seems like it was completely preventable.

[peejman]

1 hour ago, No_0ne said:

Obviously, in retrospect, he was flying too low for the terrain, but nothing in that transmission would indicate that the controllers were concerned about his altitude during that time period.

But the helicopter impacted at the bottom of the hill.  Just prior it was at 2300ft, well above any terrain. 

Its a helicopter, it's really easy to slow forward motion, climb to avoid terrain, and contact ATC if you get confused.   Spatial disorientation in the fog?  Being pushed to hurry by the passengers?  He'd already had to loiter for 15 minutes waiting for traffic clear. 

[QuackerSmacker]

1 hour ago, peejman said:

But the helicopter impacted at the bottom of the hill.  Just prior it was at 2300ft, well above any terrain. 

Its a helicopter, it's really easy to slow forward motion, climb to avoid terrain, and contact ATC if you get confused.   Spatial disorientation in the fog?  Being pushed to hurry by the passengers?  He'd already had to loiter for 15 minutes waiting for traffic clear. 

Aircraft altitude is reported in feet above sea level, not above terrain.

[No_0ne]

6 hours ago, DaveTN said:

It sounds to me like they are preparing to try to lay blame on whoever cleared him to take-off. Unless it’s so bad nothing can fly; that’s on the pilot, who is the only one that knows his individual abilities.

I used to fly with a friend for work. When the weather was questionable, he used to always say “It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.”

And if they weren’t tracking him on radar, how did they get the information about his speed variance?

Based on the video above, he apparently was in radar contact during the initial phase of the flight when he was approaching the Van Nuys and Burbank airspace.  The comment about being "too low" was in response to the pilot's request for flight following, which means that he wanted the controllers to continue surveillance on his aircraft in the airspace outside the airport terminal areas he had been flying through earlier.  At that point, his altitude was low enough that flight following wasn't possible.  Also, following a crash, radar information can often be gleaned from a careful analysis of the tapes showing the area, in VFR conditions and airspace there will often be some targets which, although not initially identified by the controllers nevertheless were showing up on the radar sweeps. This is one possible explanation for why they were able to reconstruct any speed variance.

3 hours ago, QuackerSmacker said:

Aircraft altitude is reported in feet above sea level, not above terrain.

Yes, but I don't think peejman was referring to "2300' above the terrain", just that an altitude of 2300' the chopper was above the surrounding terrain at that point.  I haven't looked at any charts to see exactly what the terrain was, I can only surmise that he was in an area of low hills which had altitudes below his reported altitude of 2300' msl.

[Capbyrd]

22 hours ago, Omega said:

Which speaks volumes of our (society at large) priorities. We hold the lives of celebrities, who do nothing but entertain us, on a pedestal while we hardly knowledge those who lay their lives on the line for our way of life.  But that is ok, speaking for me, I did not do it for idolization or even gratitude but for my own sense of patriotism.  But I refuse to pander to the masses that insist on holding these people in such high regard.  I'll acknowledge their death, and wish their family well, but that is as far as I'll go.

It's not that he's on a pedestal.   But entertainers tend to touch us somehow.   It could be because of something we saw from them around a big moment in our own lives or just because something they did was special to us without something going on in our lives.  A lot of people grow up wanting to emulate entertainers.   And that's not something new.   Older men than myself talk about John Wayne the same way and post videos or memes of him and talk about how great society would be if we be like him.  HE WAS AN ENTERTAINER.   No one has the right to tell me how important someone should be in my life.  And I certainly don't have the right to tell anyone else.  Kobe didn't mean much to me.   When it comes to basketball, I grew up with players that were retired before he made the league.  But I do recognize that he was important to a lot of other people.   Maybe to some of those people, his work was important because it was the escape from the news of service men's sacrifice, the stupid war on terror or whatever their daily drag was.   You never know.  


I just checked the rule book and nowhere in it does it say that you can't mourn more than one loss at a time.  So if people want to come here and express sympathy for Kobe's family and those that felt some personal connection to him, good for them.  At the same time they could be mourning the loss of those service men.   And who knows who else.  But it's not my job to judge them for it and I certainly won't come on here and try to marginalize their loss or tell them they are problem because of it.  

[QuackerSmacker]

14 hours ago, No_0ne said:

Based on the video above, he apparently was in radar contact during the initial phase of the flight when he was approaching the Van Nuys and Burbank airspace.  The comment about being "too low" was in response to the pilot's request for flight following, which means that he wanted the controllers to continue surveillance on his aircraft in the airspace outside the airport terminal areas he had been flying through earlier.  At that point, his altitude was low enough that flight following wasn't possible.  Also, following a crash, radar information can often be gleaned from a careful analysis of the tapes showing the area, in VFR conditions and airspace there will often be some targets which, although not initially identified by the controllers nevertheless were showing up on the radar sweeps. This is one possible explanation for why they were able to reconstruct any speed variance.

Yes, but I don't think peejman was referring to "2300' above the terrain", just that an altitude of 2300' the chopper was above the surrounding terrain at that point.  I haven't looked at any charts to see exactly what the terrain was, I can only surmise that he was in an area of low hills which had altitudes below his reported altitude of 2300' msl.

The chopper climbed to 2,300 feet, made a “left descending turn” and crashed into a hillside at 1,085 feet, bursting into flames, NTSB investigator Jennifer Homendy said.

[peejman]

14 hours ago, No_0ne said:

Based on the video above, he apparently was in radar contact during the initial phase of the flight when he was approaching the Van Nuys and Burbank airspace.  The comment about being "too low" was in response to the pilot's request for flight following, which means that he wanted the controllers to continue surveillance on his aircraft in the airspace outside the airport terminal areas he had been flying through earlier.  At that point, his altitude was low enough that flight following wasn't possible.  Also, following a crash, radar information can often be gleaned from a careful analysis of the tapes showing the area, in VFR conditions and airspace there will often be some targets which, although not initially identified by the controllers nevertheless were showing up on the radar sweeps. This is one possible explanation for why they were able to reconstruct any speed variance.

Yes, but I don't think peejman was referring to "2300' above the terrain", just that an altitude of 2300' the chopper was above the surrounding terrain at that point.  I haven't looked at any charts to see exactly what the terrain was, I can only surmise that he was in an area of low hills which had altitudes below his reported altitude of 2300' msl.

Yes. Highest nearby terrain I see is about 1800ft, so he's 500ft clear at 2300, which is the minimum recommended clearance.  The base altitude of the area looks to be about 800ft. There's some 2800ft hills to the south and 3000ft hills well to the east.  Where it impacted appears to be roughly 1000ft altitude.  Certainly  not a fun place to be flying around at low altitude in the fog. 

I don't see a helipad anywhere near where they were going, so I guess the plan was to land in a parking lot, which is a great way to piss off anyone who parked there. 

[QuackerSmacker]

https://nypost.com/2020/01/29/kobe-bryants-helicopter-lacked-proper-terrain-awareness-system/

[QuackerSmacker]

Speaking as a pilot myself, I find it extremely unlikely that this pilot/instructor with over 8,000 flying hours got fatally disoriented in fog.  He was so well trained to trust his instruments that he would been absolutely fine, if all systems were working.  I believe that a system failure is extremely likely to have caused this crash.  That system could have been either the pilot's body (heart attack or stroke...?) or an instrument failure.  Instruments do fail, and we are trained for that.  And multiple instruments fail as well.  That is why vacuum-driven instruments are backed up by electrical ones.  The damage to the bodies and the equipment was so catastrophic that we may never know the cause of this tragic crash.

[Omega]

40 minutes ago, QuackerSmacker said:

Speaking as a pilot myself, I find it extremely unlikely that this pilot/instructor with over 8,000 flying hours got fatally disoriented in fog.  He was so well trained to trust his instruments that he would been absolutely fine, if all systems were working.  I believe that a system failure is extremely likely to have caused this crash.  That system could have been either the pilot's body (heart attack or stroke...?) or an instrument failure.  Instruments do fail, and we are trained for that.  And multiple instruments fail as well.  That is why vacuum-driven instruments are backed up by electrical ones.  The damage to the bodies and the equipment was so catastrophic that we may never know the cause of this tragic crash.

It's hard to speculate about the crash, there are many possibilities and without more information it is all a guess.  But, I do wonder about the comment you made as to the pilots experience.  Isn't it like in other areas, that it's sometimes the fact that a persons experience is such that they get complacent and trust their knowledge more than the instruments and or make simple mistakes, such as not setting MSL before flight?  I've seen it mentioned many times in other areas, such as reloading, where this is known to happen, and feel it may be the same for flying.  

[Erik88]

54 minutes ago, QuackerSmacker said:

I find it extremely unlikely that this pilot/instructor with over 8,000 flying hours got fatally disoriented in fog.  He was so well trained to trust his instruments that he would been absolutely fine, if all systems were working.  

Being a pilot, you might enjoy a podcast I found called Inside the Black Box. The narrator is a dry British guy but the content is great. He explains some of the most famous aviation disasters in history. Your comment stuck out to me because many of these crashes happened after very experienced pilots screwed up. The Fairchild Air Base crash is a good example.

 

 

 

 

 

[QuackerSmacker]

6 minutes ago, Omega said:

It's hard to speculate about the crash, there are many possibilities and without more information it is all a guess.  But, I do wonder about the comment you made as to the pilots experience.  Isn't it like in other areas, that it's sometimes the fact that a persons experience is such that they get complacent and trust their knowledge more than the instruments and or make simple mistakes, such as not setting MSL before flight?  I've seen it mentioned many times in other areas, such as reloading, where this is known to happen, and feel it may be the same for flying.  

Yes, Omega, your point is very well taken.  I had an instructor almost get us killed twice in one night in my early flying days.  Anyone can (and does) make mistakes.

[QuackerSmacker]

1 minute ago, Erik88 said:

Being a pilot, you might enjoy a podcast I found called Inside the Black Box. The narrator is a dry British guy but the content is great. He explains some of the most famous aviation disasters in history. Your comment stuck out to me because many of these crashes happened after very experienced pilots screwed up. The Fairchild Air Base crash is a good example.

 

 

 

 

 

And Erik88, ditto for your comment.  Nice to have smart people around here.

[No_0ne]

On 1/29/2020 at 8:49 AM, QuackerSmacker said:

https://nypost.com/2020/01/29/kobe-bryants-helicopter-lacked-proper-terrain-awareness-system/

I doubt if a TAWS system would have made any difference.  According to the latest reports, radar tracking indicates he was in a 2000fpm descending left turn, which sounds to me like the classic "graveyard spiral", at that speed and rate of descent the time differential between the TAWS warning and impact would have been less than a second.