Things would have to get a lot worse.

[Guest justme]

You should be careful about making blanket statements like this. I'm not intimately familiar with Ford's operations, but lots of GM vehicles are built in Canada or Mexico. And quite a few of their vehicles are based on import designs, such as the Isuzu-designed Colorado/Canyon.

Moreover, a pretty fair portion of imports are built right here in the US.

Such as the Toyota plant that I think is in Clinton, the Matix Corporation plant in Jellico, the GM plant in Spring Hill....they are too worried about producing the gas and diesel guzzling SUVs when they should worry about producing an affordable, fuel efficient vehicle instead.

[Guest justme]

What double stack do you want that is foreign made?

the most accurate, affordable double stack I can find that has the best recoil for its' size...

How so? Do you own an XD or an M&P?

Since round count is what seems to matter to you, does the XD’s hold more rounds that the M&P? Because if I remember right the XD 40 I shot was 12 rounds. and my M&P 40 was 15; but I could be mistaken.

The XDm carries 19+1, the XD .45 carries 13+1

the .40 is a neutered 10mm anyway, which is why I would want to shy away from it

Not really. A POS is a POS regardless of who is shooting it.

no really...

What is it?

the XD is a fine firearm...I've shot them-they handle well and shoot well.

Correct, so who makes the foreign gun you want?

not necessarily a foreign gun--just something that shoots well, can give me the necessary magazine capacity, and handles well. I'm not against buying an American gun-I have my eye on a fine American made rifle...but so far the XD has handled the best, which is why I am considering it above the others.

[Punisher84]

I’m not debating anything; I’m talking about fixing our economic problems. That means more and better paying jobs. Some people see red when they see “Buy Americanâ€; I can’t help that. (I’m not a physiologist so I will refrain on guessing as to why:D)

If you have an alternative fix please give it. But “Sink or swim Bubba†can’t be taken as a serious solution.

I would love to buy American and I do when it's a quality made item or fits my budget at the time, but I don't blindly buy into the "If you don't buy American you're Commie!" rhetoric.

I don't think sink or swim is the fix, but it's a good attitude overall. Why keep bailing out and tolerating shoddy workmanship and greedy companies? If you hire your bro-in-law to build a fence and he repeatedly messes it up or doesn't complete the work, you are going to fire him. We need to quit passing money out to the undeserving and start re-evaluating things like Welfare.

I also don't know what Physiology has to do with understanding a person. Perhaps you meant Psychology? I'm also still waiting for you to show me the post where I claimed to be a cop, unless you care to recant the statement?

[Guest justme]

I too like to buy American whenever I can--as long as it is quality made, and is affordable. I'm tired of buying cheap Chinese made POS.

I think we need to start paying a decent living wage--$7.15/hr just won't hack it considering how the workers in this country get taxed to death while uncle same ships our money off to prop up third world dictatorships who make their money by dealing drugs--can anyone say Afghanistan? No one should have to work full time, or have to work 2 jobs just to get buy and no one should have to work and receive food stamps--pay the workers enough money and help them to help themselves instead of just making it to the point that we have to depend on government handouts to get by. I think minimum wage should be adjusted to match inflation, I really do.

I think we need to have an educated populace-that means if you are on welfare--then you should have to attend evening classes at a local technical school or university if you want to remain on welfare for any length of time, and if you quit before you graduate--your welfare automatically stops. Education should be made more accessible--more along the lines of the Czech Republic, because anyone can go the Czech Republic and obtain a university education absolutely free as long as you are willing to learn their language well enough to get buy in their society while you are studying.

I definitely think we should reevaluate who qualifies for social security--if you are on Social security because you are addicted to alcohol that is just tough sh**, drop the habit and get a life and get a job. Social security should be for those who actually are old enough to get it, or who are disabled. I think we need to reevaluate our priorities in this country.

I think we should export as much merchandise and products to China as they export to us. I think we need to slap the same tariffs on their products as they place on ours. I think we need to make it unprofitable for American companies to go over seas just to get cheaper labor--if they choose to go to Mexico, then expect high tariffs on your products when you ship them back...I think we need to have caps on the pay of CEOs--who needs the multimillion golden parachutes, or the upteen million dollars a year like the CEOs of Exxon mobile, or JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs? I think the "stock options" bit should also stop...

As for the "bail outs"--I am all for letting what is nominally called the "Darwinian theory of Natural selection" take over for the banks and the mortgage industry....they got themselves into this mess because of greed and because of their rush to hand out bad subprime loans to everyone and their brother knowing they could not possibly repay it...I am personally for seizing the property of the CEOs whose companies received a "bail out", as well as seizing their bank accounts and their other assets and giving the majority of them back to the people while forcing the CEOs of these corporations to live on minimum wage and let them see what it is like to have everything they love and worked for taken from them...the American PEOPLE are in need of a bail out--but who bails us out?

If you have 45 minutes to spare--watch the first 30-45 minutes of Zeitgeist the addendum on youtube...it is really something to see.

Edited February 15, 2009 by justme

[Guest jackdog]

We can argue over a beer about what caused it. But in the meantime lets fix it .

Hey a beer sounds good to me. I really don't want to argue about anything, but I can prove exactly what I'm talking about. Yes both the political parties are to blame.

Here's a question for you. Why have we not suspended H1v visa program if we are so concerned with American workers. two, Why was E verify not left in the bill to protect American workers from illegal alien workers.

Answer this hole thing is bull**** it will not create near the jobs they are talking about and the jobs created will cost between 250 to 275 thousand each. What we are about to do is run the US dollar into the ground, so that a portion of our government I.E. the democrats can get their pet projects in.

Edited February 15, 2009 by jackdog

[Guest jackdog]

As far as buying American. When American companies produce the same quality of product for the same price then I buy American. That does not mean that I buy an American product that is assembled or produced in Mexico or any other foreign country

[Guest nraforlife]

Problem isn't really only the minimum wage but also taxes. GD government has their hands so deep in our pockets you think they were trying to give us a happy ending instead of a butt frickin. Doesn't do much good to give out pay increases when it either pushes you into a higher tax bracket and/or a good percentage of the raise goes back to the government.

[DaveTN]

Here's a question for you. Why have we not suspended H1v visa program if we are so concerned with American workers.

As far as buying American. When American companies produce the same quality of product for the same price then I buy American.

Who is concerned about American workers? Obama isn’t.

You say that you want quality made American products at the same price as the foreign made stuff. It can’t happen.

Employee health care, OSHA, EPA, Unemployment benefits, Pensions, 401K’s, Overtime, vacation pay, family leave, civil liability.

Those are just a few of the costs than manufacturers here have that those companies you want to buy from overseas don’t have. How do you suggest that we manufacture a product at the same price as a foreign company when our companies are strapped with that?

Why are the Visa programs still in force? Because of you price buyers that think we should be able to produce a product for the same price as a foreign competitor.

If a company can get an IT guy or a programmer from India that is every bit as good as you, but will work for a quarter of your wage; shouldn’t they do it? I mean after all, price is most important to you… correct?

That does not mean that I buy an American product that is assembled or produced in Mexico or any other foreign country

I agree. I have said all along that although I buy my vehicles from American Manufacturers; but I do not consider those companies our friends.

GM’s and Ford built in Canada and Mexico hurt our economy, they don’t help it. And they should not get a dime of any bailout money. I know that would be almost impossible to overseas, but this bailout is about jobs here. We are not bailing out the auto industry because we like them. We are bailing them out because if they go under or economy will be devastated by the loss of jobs. (So much for the “Sink or Swim†or “let things take their course†attitude. There will be no surprises; we know exactly what the course will be.)

[G27]

Who is concerned about American workers? Obama isn’t.

You say that you want quality made American products at the same price as the foreign made stuff. It can’t happen.

Employee health care, OSHA, EPA, Unemployment benefits, Pensions, 401K’s, Overtime, vacation pay, family leave, civil liability.

Those are just a few of the costs than manufacturers here have that those companies you want to buy from overseas don’t have. How do you suggest that we manufacture a product at the same price as a foreign company when our companies are strapped with that?

Once again, this was not the case before our great leaders removed/greatly reduced (depending on the country and commodity in question) protectionism. VERY few people will spend more for the same product just because of where it's manufactured. American products are, in probably better than 99% of the cases, superior to their Chinese counterparts, but because the Chinese have none of the basic rights and protections allowed the manufacturing workers and consumers, they can sell the stuff for pennies on the dollar.

You can't, however, use that to argue that it's simply the American people's fault - up until about 20 years ago import tariffs made the Chinese products at least comparable in price to the superior American products, so 'buying American' meant spending little more money but virtually always getting a superior product. Our fearless leaders, with their desire to help the rest of the world develop on the back of our success, decided protectionism wasn't fair and look where it got us.

Hence my point - BOTH the American buyer and the Fed Gov are responsible for this mess.

For the record, I refuse to shop at Walmart (and a few other stores) due to their stocking almost all foreign made products. My wife and I strive to only buy American where possible (buying US-made shoes for children is nearly impossible and you know how I feel about US-made autos), and if we have to buy from an overseas manufacturer, we avoid anything from China or Taiwan. While Mexico isn't America, they are lot closer to us wrt worker's rights and such, in large part due to US influence. We live this way because we think it's what's good for the USA and we love our country, but if we weren't blessed financially I don't think we could do it - it often costs a LOT more to buy American, and in some cases the difference in quality is nil.

[DaveTN]

I would love to buy American and I do when it's a quality made item or fits my budget at the time, but I don't blindly buy into the "If you don't buy American you're Commie!" rhetoric.

See you are getting all emotional again and making wild azz statements. Reading is fundamental (RIF). Where have I said that you are a commie if you don’t buy American?

I don't think sink or swim is the fix, but it's a good attitude overall. Why keep bailing out and tolerating shoddy workmanship and greedy companies? If you hire your bro-in-law to build a fence and he repeatedly messes it up or doesn't complete the work, you are going to fire him. We need to quit passing money out to the undeserving and start re-evaluating things like Welfare.

It’s the normal progression of the “Global Economyâ€. See we were at the very top of the standard of living scale (because of our manufacturing base) while counties like China were at the very bottom. In a Global Economy, we need to take a big fall while China rises so we can be equal. That is what is happening. Is that what you want? Because you know what? I couldn’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade about the quality of life in China if I have to sell out my grandkids future to do it. We are in war; we take care of our own.

I also don't know what Physiology has to do with understanding a person. Perhaps you meant Psychology?

You are exactly correct. I breezed through spell checker too fast.

I'm also still waiting for you to show me the post where I claimed to be a cop, unless you care to recant the statement?

Again…. RIF.

It was a question, not a statement. I couldn’t figure out where that cheap shot about me being a former cop came from, or why. I was just under the impression that you were either a cop or a security guard or something. I thought I read at one time that you posted you work in law enforcement. Let me get this straight… you threw a little fit and went off on me and now you want me to recant or post an apology or something? Or what? You’ll threaten to leave and not come back?

[DaveTN]

Hence my point - BOTH the American buyer and the Fed Gov are responsible for this mess.

Your ideas for a fix?

Is your business entertainment based? (I’m just guessing that because of your screen name)

[Guest RISC777]

but tupperware gun the XD isn't.

Originally Posted by DaveTN

What is it?

the XD is a fine firearm...I've shot them-they handle well and shoot well.

Polymer with a steel slide.

[DaveTN]

Polymer with a steel slide.

As compared to the M&P which has a polymer frame reinforced with a stainless steel chassis and stainless steel barrel and slide.

Plus it was made here.

[Guest RISC777]

My Taurus and Smith&Wesson are made of the same materials.

[DaveTN]

My Taurus and Smith&Wesson are made of the same materials.

My S&W’s and a Hi-Point are made from the same materials. What’s your point?

[canadienmike]

Why are the Visa programs still in force? Because of you price buyers that think we should be able to produce a product for the same price as a foreign competitor.

If a company can get an IT guy or a programmer from India that is every bit as good as you, but will work for a quarter of your wage; shouldn’t they do it? I mean after all, price is most important to you… correct?

That's also against the law. By law an employer has to pay an H1B vis holder the same wages as an American counterpart. Does hte above abuse happen? yes, it does, but instead of just saying let's scrap the program, how about the enforce the law? I would be a lot more concerned with the illegal aliens (some 12-20 million) than the few hundred thousand visa holders who have gone about coming here the correct way.

[G27]

Your ideas for a fix?

Protectionism along with an effort to re-establish a national pride that's so widely derided by the national media and far left.

The first part (protectionism) is easy, it's merely passing laws. The rest of the world might not like it, but frankly, since we account for over 20% of the world's GDP, it doesn't matter what they think/like.

The second part - a renewed national pride - would be much harder, but would start with the little things (like officials wearing flag pins, hehe) and would require admonishment of the press from our elected leaders to avoid the 'trashing of America' that's so prevalent in modern media.

Is your business entertainment based? (I’m just guessing that because of your screen name)

Yes sir, I work in the music industry.

[DaveTN]

The first part (protectionism) is easy, it's merely passing laws. The rest of the world might not like it, but frankly, since we account for over 20% of the world's GDP, it doesn't matter what they think/like.

I agree that protectionism is exactly what we need, but I think that burden is on the people. Aren’t you concerned that by the government being involved the risks are much higher?

Wal-Mart is China’s largest single source of foreign income. If the government puts laws in force that cut that income; I would think there would be the potential for bigger problems than if that income was cut because Americans were voluntarily buying products made here.

along with an effort to re-establish a national pride that's so widely derided by the national media and far left.

The second part - a renewed national pride - would be much harder, but would start with the little things (like officials wearing flag pins, hehe) and would require admonishment of the press from our elected leaders to avoid the 'trashing of America' that's so prevalent in modern media.

I agree. The young generation doesn’t really care about the jobs of their fellow countrymen and are usually quick to tell you that. As long as products are cheap; they don’t care where they come from or what they do to our economy. I think they have had it beaten into their heads for so long that there is nothing they can do; they believe it. Untilllll…. You suggest that is not the way Patriots behave. Then their feeling get all hurt and they go on a rant.

EDIT:

You know what? That really isn’t fair to the young folks. In going back through here there are many in my generation that are also more than willing to sell out their country to save a buck. So I apologize; it’s not just the young folks.

Edited February 15, 2009 by DaveTN

[Punisher84]

See you are getting all emotional again and making wild azz statements. Reading is fundamental (RIF). Where have I said that you are a commie if you don’t buy American?

Didn't say you said it. Simply stated it was a rhetoric. It's an overall attitude that buying anything other than American made products is unpatriotic. I've said several times that I would rather support American businesses, but I'm not going to go into debt to buy an American product that I need, such as a motor vehicle, if an import runs just as good, if not better, and costs less.

I agree with Crimsonaudio when he says both the buyer and the Federal government are responsible for all of this. If you want to put restrictions and tariffs on imports that will possibly work, but you have to somehow guarantee the American consumer that the American products they will then be, more or less, forced to buy are equal or greater quality.

Again…. RIF.

It was a question, not a statement. I couldn’t figure out where that cheap shot about me being a former cop came from, or why. I was just under the impression that you were either a cop or a security guard or something. I thought I read at one time that you posted you work in law enforcement. Let me get this straight… you threw a little fit and went off on me and now you want me to recant or post an apology or something? Or what? You’ll threaten to leave and not come back?

I threw the cop shot in there because, usually, at least once in a thread you use your background in law enforcement as the nail to drive on why you are right. Your impression is correct, I work private security and do training for my company.

I don't really look at it throwing a fit, you personally attacked a friend of mine. That pissed me off. I don't want an apology I just wanted clarification. If you want to take a cheap shot for me bowing out of me and Fallguy's months old argument that's cool. I took the high road, talked to Fallguy in pm and got it settled and took a break before I ran my mouth off. Now all is gravy. You think making fun of people or making harsh, rude statements is going to somehow when your argument? Your nothing more than an arrogant fool. As far as I'm concerned you may go find the largest rope you can and piss up it.

[Punisher84]

Untilllll…. You suggest that is not the way Patriots behave. Then their feeling get all hurt and they go on a rant.

Or maybe it's just when certain people question their patriotism or that of their friends.

EDIT:

You know what? That really isn’t fair to the young folks. In going back through here there are many in my generation that are also more than willing to sell out their country to save a buck. So I apologize; it’s not just the young folks.

Good edit since it's really your generation that's been in power ****ing the rest of us over.

[BryanP]

Such as the Toyota plant that I think is in Clinton, the Matix Corporation plant in Jellico, the GM plant in Spring Hill....

Or the Nissan plant all of 10 miles from my house.

[DaveTN]

Your nothing more than an arrogant fool.

You starting the name calling every time your feelings get hurt is really getting old.

[Punisher84]

His pm my reply.

Your nothing more than an arrogant fool.

And you are a punk wannabe.

Look man, it’s not my fault I was a cop and you can’t cut it, or don’t have what it takes. You are a freaking $8 an hour security guard and want people here to think you are something more by adding “and do training for my company”.

You are making yourself look like an immature fool just like you did when you threw your crying azz baby fit that you were going to quit posting. Most everything you say is BS. You are clueless and then get pissed because other members call you on it. I was not involved in that at all; so it wasn’t my doing. But like everyone else I had a good laugh at it.

I’m not going to reduce myself to your level on an open forum; all it will do is get the thread locked. Anything else you want to whine or cry about?

Yea I'll start with this you don't know a thing about me, what I do, or who I am. You can't form an intelligent argument so you think if you talk enough crap or get tough with people they'll back off.

Well check this out, I don't back down and I could care less what you think of me. You wanna make brash accusations about me and my life go ahead, I'm not about to sit here and justify myself or my life to you.

As far as other members calling me on things, yea I usually have debates with people. That's what a forum is for, but it's usually settled ultimately without someone going to the lengths you did.

BTW if you thought you were gonna talk down to me in private and still maintain some type of "I was just being me" attitude on the forum? Guess again bubba.

[Guest Rick O'Shay]

We are all on the same side, remember?

And frankly it is bad form to publicly post PRIVATE Messages. If someone feels that what have to say doesn't belong on a public forum, then it shouldn't be. For the rest of us, please keep this kind of sniping private.

Thanks

[Punisher84]

We are all on the same side, remember?

And frankly it is bad form to publicly post PRIVATE Messages. If someone feels that what have to say doesn't belong on a public forum, then it shouldn't be. For the rest of us, please keep this kind of sniping private.

Thanks

Normally I feel the same way, but he's gonna call me out and try to act all intelligent in public, but like an ass in private. I don't play that game. Say it in here or shut up.