Things would have to get a lot worse.

[Guest bkelm18]

And I think you either just want to argue about it or are trying to justify turning your back on your country and your family.

Perhaps you can explain this one to me. I'm not sure what you are getting at. If by turning my back on my family you mean buying quality products that won't get them hurt or killed, or products that require less upkeep and money so that I can continue to feed them, then yep, I must hate my family. On my country? Get real. I'm not sure I even know how to respond to that.

Them buy them.

You can be part of the problem; maybe the rest of us can carry you.

Carry me where? You say I'm part of the problem because I refuse to buy inferior products? Please. If given a choice between Domestic or Imported, any product, I choose the one with higher quality and better value. If at that point it is a domestic product, I buy it. If it is imported, I buy it. Don't you ****ing think or dare look down your nose at me for one second and say that I turned my back on this country. You do not know me or my beliefs. You can take that elitist attitude and shove it.

[G27]

And I think you either just want to argue about it or are trying to justify turning your back on your country and your family.

Them buy them.

You can be part of the problem; maybe the rest of us can carry you.

My Hondas were built right here in the US with US made parts- it's doubt you can say that for your 'domestics' (Mexican, more than likely). Auto's are one of the few things that the foreign companies are flat-out doing better (and my Honda's both cost a good bit more than their poorly-made American counterparts).

Amazing that you're willing to insinuate that what's good for the country is to prop up poorly made products simply because they're American-made - that, in fact, is part of what got us where we are. Lazy and dogmatic don't carry you far as an individual or a country.

[poak]

I'd rather drive a POS BMW M3 than a Corvette... just sayins all

[Guest bkelm18]

I'd rather drive a POS BMW M3 than a Corvette... just sayins all

I miss my Bimmer.

[Guest Astra900]

Because S&W are a bunch of sell-outs who have produced some of the crappiest semi-autos this side of Taurus?

I understand the buy American rhetoric, but American needs to be better.

When Honda makes a car that just won't stop why buy a GMC?

When Suzuki makes a motorcycle that looks just as good as a Harley, runs great, and sounds good why would I pay 10,000 dollars more for a name?

The problem is that American companies have been OK with f'ing the customers over to make a buck, now there are bigger, better companies that are taking away their security blanket. If you want to revive the economy you ship all the illegals out, force American interests and companies to manufacture a better product and, for a while, give incentives to buy American.

You can also start by taking people like Nadya Suleman and locking them up in the looney bin before they have 14 kids needing 100% government aid.

I agree. There was a time when made in the USA REALLY meant something. It's not that way anymore. So many fat lazy useless union working Aholes building GARBAGE! It's not a matter of price, my '07 Toyota FJ wasn't exactly as cheap as a KIA. It will be running when like model domestic SUV's have bit the dust because the Japanese have a superior product and a superior work ethic.{HEY detroit, pay attention to that!} PERIOD. If Ford, Chrysler, and GM would produce a REAL vehicle again, like my '63 Falcon, I'd buy American cars all the way.

As far as a Harley goes, that's a real joke. WHen you buy a Harley, you buy a name. And that's all you get. No Harley will match a Japanese cruiser for speed comfort and longevity, and NO Harley will tour like a Goldwing.

You're joking right? I think you are just blindly believing that since its made here it must be better. I'm sorry, that is in no way true, at all. I have owned two imported cars and two domestic cars. The imports beat the domestics hands down. No question about it. Guns? I can think of a certain austrian made firearm that appears to be on the top of many people's list. Liquor? You can't really argue about quality with consumables. To me, quality is about durability and longevity. A potato chip or a shot of liquor has neither of those.

There does seem to be a lot of Glock and Sig Sauer fans for a "buy american only" attitude.

I'd love to be a part of the solution, and buy only american goods. Hey america, go back to building something worth having like you did before I was born, and I will!

[DaveTN]

Oh that's bull****. You can't make a solid argument so now you're gonna insult a veteran? Who carried who?

I have two honorable discharges, served during Vietnam, and served my country as a Police Officer. What does that have to do with anything?

Carry… present tense. You with your foreign quality babble and being totally clueless about manufacturing are part of the problem.

Don’t get your panties all in a bunch and your blood pressure up; give your thoughts on how to fix the problem if my ideas are so far off base.

You think you're some ****ing know it all because you were a cop in the most communist state in the ****ing Union?

What’s a cop got to do with it?

And didn’t I see you claim to be a cop… or maybe you used the term LEO?

[poak]

WHen you buy a Harley, you buy a name. And that's all you get. No Harley will match a Japanese cruiser for speed comfort and longevity

True. HD wouldn't even be where they are today if it weren't for Japanese consulting...

[Punisher84]

I have two honorable discharges, served during Vietnam, and served my country as a Police Officer. What does that have to do with anything?

Carry… present tense. You with your foreign quality babble and being totally clueless about manufacturing are part of the problem.

Don’t get your panties all in a bunch and your blood pressure up; give your thoughts on how to fix the problem if my ideas are so far off base.

What’s a cop got to do with it?

And didn’t I see you claim to be a cop… or maybe you used the term LEO?

How am I clueless about manufacturing?? You are debating American products VS. imports. I say imports, currently, are just as good or better. I'm not debating the manufacturing process.

You want my thoughts on how to fix it? Sink or swim bubba. If American made is better, it will ultimately win out. I don't see the tool companies needing bail outs.

As far as me claiming to be a cop? I'd love to see the post. I've made statements about eventually going through a reserve class, maybe taking the LEO path one day, but I've never claimed to be anything other than what I am. If you'll direct your attention to the right hand side of your screen under my nifty avatar there you will notice the lack of the yellow badge icon.

[Guest Mugster]

The economic crisis is a worldwide problem, not an american problem. Buying american...is like saying "save the silverware" when a nuclear weapon is about to go off. It doesn't have any bearing on anything.

I think long term, bringing in imported durable goods and semi-durable goods forced american companies to drastically increase their own quality. Now I think american automakers and foreign ones make a comparable product, with a few exceptions. S&W was forced to produce a competitive handgun.

Tarp was necessary. It prevented a flat out run on the banks, and it was a near thing. The country/world very nearly went down in sept/oct 2008. The .gov has done a good job so far keeping a lid on this thing. The bailout is a crock of marketing crap though, it just gives people a little hope to carry them through.

There really is no active fix for the economy, imo. This thing is going to have to run its course. 4-5 years, many think a debt restructuring will happen and the market will eventually force it. What form it will take remains to be seen. I believe the base problem was individual greed, more than anything else.

[Guest Astra900]

Don’t get your panties all in a bunch and your blood pressure up; give your thoughts on how to fix the problem if my ideas are so far off base.

This is where you insert the armed uprising.

When a doctor goes in on a tumor, he'll cut a little around the tumor, to make dang sure he gets it all. So what if people suffer in the process. Why do the people of this country think they are too damn good to take one on the chin? The rest of the world throughout time has suffered for prosperity. You want to repair this country, you will have to cut out the bad with a knife. The people of this country are set in their "don't disturb me" ways. "I can't help, I have to go to work tomorrow, the wife wants the garage cleaned out......"

Everyone's routine is dug in like an alabama tick.

It's heart breaking that soldiers are dying for this country. They should be over here killing to cleanse this country. *Insert a leader here(certainly not me!)with the brass to get it done*

Then the dust settles, rebuilding starts, and happiness spreads because genuine hope for the future might actually be a reality.

[Punisher84]

This is where you insert the armed uprising.

When a doctor goes in on a tumor, he'll cut a little around the tumor, to make dang sure he gets it all. So what if people suffer in the process. Why do the people of this country think they are too damn good to take one on the chin? The rest of the world throughout time has suffered for prosperity. You want to repair this country, you will have to cut out the bad with a knife. The people of this country are set in their "don't disturb me" ways. "I can't help, I have to go to work tomorrow, the wife wants the garage cleaned out......"

Everyone's routine is dug in like an alabama tick.

It's heart breaking that soldiers are dying for this country. They should be over here killing to cleanse this country. *Insert a leader here(certainly not me!)with the brass to get it done*

Then the dust settles, rebuilding starts, and happiness spreads because genuine hope for the future might actually be a reality.

There is alot of sense in that. While I still firmly believe we are a great country and I'm damn proud to live here, we have become a nation of elitist, petty, arrogant, snobs. We want to talk about how great we are and how everybody else sucks, but nobody wants to maintain the greatness or work to fix what is broken. We are Rome.

[Guest Astra900]

We are Rome.

Yessir, And where is Rome now? I'm just saying.

[Guest bkelm18]

Yessir, And where is Rome now? I'm just saying.

Home to many hot Italian women... just sayin...

[DaveTN]

You are debating American products VS. imports.

I’m not debating anything; I’m talking about fixing our economic problems. That means more and better paying jobs. Some people see red when they see “Buy Americanâ€; I can’t help that. (I’m not a physiologist so I will refrain on guessing as to why:D)

If you have an alternative fix please give it. But “Sink or swim Bubba†can’t be taken as a serious solution.

[Guest nraforlife]

There is alot of sense in that. While I still firmly believe we are a great country and I'm damn proud to live here, we have become a nation of elitist, petty, arrogant, snobs. We want to talk about how great we are and how everybody else sucks, but nobody wants to maintain the greatness or work to fix what is broken. We are Rome.

And San Francisco is Greece.

IMHO the fix to straighten this country out is never going to happen short of a disaster, man made or natural, that so shakes us to our core that we start almost from scratch again as a united people.

[DaveTN]

It's heart breaking that soldiers are dying for this country. They should be over here killing to cleanse this country. *Insert a leader here(certainly not me!)with the brass to get it done*

Then the dust settles, rebuilding starts, and happiness spreads because genuine hope for the future might actually be a reality.

Who do you want to kill?

[Guest nraforlife]

Who do you want to kill?

All, I DO NOT think that this is a path we want to go down.....

[Guest justme]

Exactly.

And no one is asking those that can’t afford to buy U.S. manufactured to do so.

But those that can afford to should be supporting their country.

And it isn’t always true that American made will cost more. Let me give you an example....

The Smith & Wesson M&P is made by American workers in an American facility. Every piece of that gun including the magazines is made here. All the money from that purchase (other than possibly some foreign shareholders earnings) stays here.

The XD is made in Croatian by “HS Product†(formerly IM Metal). Springfield Armory is nothing more than an importer for this product. SA started with the HS2000 when they needed a bottom feeder line. The weapon became popular because it was cheap. Some improvements have been made and now it is in the same price range as the M&P. The bulk of the money you spend on it goes back to Croatian; the people of Croatia thank you.

Two weapons, both in the same price range. I don’t think anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the XD is a better weapon that the M&P…. so why buy it?

I'll address the XD and then later get into "America first"

Speaking from a personal standpoint I would choose the XD over the M&P because of magazine capacity...America is more worried about pleasing the state apologists and the gun grabbers at the Brady center who tell us that "hi cap" magazines are just a horrible thing that are made to massacre people...! I want to buy a 1911 type firearm that is made in America, but I would prefer something that holds 13+ rounds in the mag over an 8-10rd magazine....those extra rounds could actually mean the difference between going home one night or being carried to your final resting place if you should unfortunately find one day that the SHTF. America worries more about pleasing the grabbers and the liberals and the PACs than we do about fixing our own problems.

[DaveTN]

I'll address the XD and then later get into "America first"

Speaking from a personal standpoint I would choose the XD over the M&P because of magazine capacity...

My M&P held 15 rounds of .40S&W. that’s a tremendous amount of firepower. How many does the XD hold?

America is more worried about pleasing the state apologists and the gun grabbers at the Brady center who tell us that "hi cap" magazines are just a horrible thing that are made to massacre people...! I want to buy a 1911 type firearm that is made in America.

Then buy one. Smith & Wesson, Kimber, Colt, Springfield Armory, and several of the “Place your favorite name here†guys make them here.

but I would prefer something that holds 13+ rounds in the mag over an 8-10rd magazine....those extra rounds could actually mean the difference between going home one night or being carried to your final resting place if you should unfortunately find one day that the SHTF.

That would be a double stack; and is not really a 1911. If you need that many rounds there are American made choices you can go with. Quality 1911’s are high dollar guns. If you want hi capacity I would stick with the Tupperware guns. I own a full size Smith & Wesson Stainless target .45 and a Kimber SIS Ultra for carry. I do not want a double stack; they are too fat, and round capacity is not an issue for me.

With all due respect the 1911 has withstood the test of time; there is no need to make changes now.

As I said… if you can’t find what you need made here there is no problem with buying foreign. I have foreign made TV’s and digital cameras. I didn’t have an American made choice. I started a thread because I need a new laptop. I thought I could buy American built, but it doesn’t appear I can.

[Guest justme]

Then buy one. Smith & Wesson, Kimber, Colt, Springfield Armory, and several of the “Place your favorite name here” guys make them here.

Yes they do--but again--I would want something that offers more than 8rds that they hold...

That would be a double stack; and is not really a 1911. If you need that many rounds there are American made choices you can go with. Quality 1911’s are high dollar guns. If you want hi capacity I would stick with the Tupperware guns. I own a full size Smith & Wesson Stainless target .45 and a Kimber SIS Ultra for carry. I do not want a double stack; they are too fat, and round capacity is not an issue for me.

Yes it is a double stack..as for "tupperware" guns..I'd put an XD against a smith and wesson any day of the week...but then again it comes down to the person behind the trigger more than anything else...but tupperware gun the XD isn't.

With all due respect the 1911 has withstood the test of time; there is no need to make changes now.

1911s have withstood the test of time yes, but there is nothing wrong with improving even slightly on the design--adding more round capacity would be a great thing to do to an already great gun.

As I said… if you can’t find what you need made here there is no problem with buying foreign. I have foreign made TV’s and digital cameras. I didn’t have an American made choice. I started a thread because I need a new laptop. I thought I could buy American built, but it doesn’t appear I can.

You won't find an American made laptop unless you buy the parts--foreign made, and then build it yourself...I don't buy computers--I build my own and they work SO MUCH BETTER than the POS throwaways that you buy in stores...

Edited February 14, 2009 by justme

[Guest Rick O'Shay]

Good God man…

It seems like about once a week we see a thread by someone wanting to take up arms against our government.

The government is not going to “aggressively go after our gunsâ€.

Who is it you want to fight? You are suggesting killing cops and our military. If you want so badly to kill someone or want to test your battle skills (seeing how you are suggesting engaging a group that will without a doubt leave you dead) why are you not in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Sorry… but our government didn’t get us in the economic disaster we are in now. The American people did. And we have to get out of it by ourselves. If you need a cause; there it is. Take it up and do something about it. Because this economic problem is as real a danger to our country and our Constitution as enemy boots on U.S. soil.

I wasn't saying that at all. I was addressing those who do come on here saying things like that.

[DaveTN]

Yes they do--but again--I want something that offers more than 8rds that they hold...Yes it is a double stack

What double stack do you want that is foreign made?

as for "tupperware" guns..I'd put an XD against a smith and wesson any day of the week...

How so? Do you own an XD or an M&P?

Since round count is what seems to matter to you, does the XD’s hold more rounds that the M&P? Because if I remember right the XD 40 I shot was 12 rounds. and my M&P 40 was 15; but I could be mistaken.

...but then again it comes down to the person behind the trigger more than anything else...

Not really. A POS is a POS regardless of who is shooting it.

but tupperware gun the XD isn't.

What is it?

1911s have withstood the test of time yes, but there is nothing wrong with improving even slightly on the design--adding more round capacity would be a great thing to do to an already great gun.

Correct, so who makes the foreign gun you want?

[DaveTN]

I wasn't saying that at all. I was addressing those who do come on here saying things like that.

I wasn’t directly responding to your thoughts; that’s why I didn’t quote you.

I was just responding to the whole idea in general. As I said it seems that once a week someone with their tin foil hat screwed on too tight has to make a speech about how the government is going to start kicking in doors and by God they better hope they don’t come to their house… and bla… bla… bla… color me tactical … I’m a Ninja warrior…

we have heard it all.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Duhhhhh… that is exactly what we need. GM’s and Ford are built in the U.S. where they should be; not in Canada or Mexico. But if buyers will tell the dealers that when they open the doors of those cars they need to see a U.S. city or origin, or they won’t buy them; things will change. Money talks and BS walks; where a product is manufactured can be controlled by the buyers.

You should be careful about making blanket statements like this. I'm not intimately familiar with Ford's operations, but lots of GM vehicles are built in Canada or Mexico. And quite a few of their vehicles are based on import designs, such as the Isuzu-designed Colorado/Canyon.

Moreover, a pretty fair portion of imports are built right here in the US.

[DaveTN]

You should be careful about making blanket statements like this. I'm not intimately familiar with Ford's operations, but lots of GM vehicles are built in Canada or Mexico.

Sorry, I left out the word “thatâ€.

Here I fixed it.

Duhhhhh… that is exactly what we need. GM’s and Ford that are built in the U.S. where they should be; not in Canada or Mexico. But if buyers will tell the dealers that when they open the doors of those cars they need to see a U.S. city or origin, or they won’t buy them; things will change. Money talks and BS walks; where a product is manufactured can be controlled by the buyers.