Things would have to get a lot worse.

[Guest Rick O'Shay]

Lets say the the government was to aggressively go after our guns in the near future. Some people would resist, but most would try to hide them, with mixed success. Irregardless of the rending of the Constitution going on now, few (in general) would have a major problem with it. I don't remember where I read it, but "there has never been a revolution of fat men" holds true. Some would like to see a return to our Constitutional roots by whatever means that will get us there, but as long as our country remains somewhat prosperous, it ain't gonna happen.

Just a thought...

[mousegunner]

Who you calling fat? I resemble that remark! I'm too old and fat to hide out in the hills, that's for sure!

[Smith]

Revolutions and revivals are lead by the young and tempered by the old. I too see more hiding than fighting. We have stripped the understanding of necessary force from our young people and turned them into psycho babbling who think they can "talk" their way out of anything. "Walk softly and carry a big stick" comes to mind. I see all these " War is not the Answer" bumper stickers and I just have to shake my head. War is a the only answer when the enemy does not understand logic, truth, or reason.

[Guest justme]

Lets say the the government was to aggressively go after our guns in the near future. Some people would resist, but most would try to hide them, with mixed success. Irregardless of the rending of the Constitution going on now, few (in general) would have a major problem with it. I don't remember where I read it, but "there has never been a revolution of fat men" holds true. Some would like to see a return to our Constitutional roots by whatever means that will get us there, but as long as our country remains somewhat prosperous, it ain't gonna happen.

Just a thought...

you mean a society based more along the lines of the movie V for Vendetta? Everyone is happy, prosperous and follows the party line or else?

[DaveTN]

Good God man…

It seems like about once a week we see a thread by someone wanting to take up arms against our government.

The government is not going to “aggressively go after our gunsâ€.

Who is it you want to fight? You are suggesting killing cops and our military. If you want so badly to kill someone or want to test your battle skills (seeing how you are suggesting engaging a group that will without a doubt leave you dead) why are you not in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Sorry… but our government didn’t get us in the economic disaster we are in now. The American people did. And we have to get out of it by ourselves. If you need a cause; there it is. Take it up and do something about it. Because this economic problem is as real a danger to our country and our Constitution as enemy boots on U.S. soil.

[G27]

Good God man…

It seems like about once a week we see a thread by someone wanting to take up arms against our government.

The government is not going to “aggressively go after our gunsâ€.

I suggest our 2A rights are just part of a growing list of grievances many have with our elected officials.

Sorry… but our government didn’t get us in the economic disaster we are in now. The American people did. And we have to get out of it by ourselves. If you need a cause; there it is. Take it up and do something about it. Because this economic problem is as real a danger to our country and our Constitution as enemy boots on U.S. soil.

While I generally agree with you on this, it's not that simple. The government's elimination of protectionism is the reason off-shore manufacturing has boomed, sending our jobs and dollars overseas, for example. To suggest the federal government (in particular) isn't complicit in getting us into this situation is wrong, imo.

One only needs to look at the stimulus bill waiting to be signed by the president to see how badly we are being screwed by our own government.

[BryanP]

Some people would resist, but most would try to hide them, with mixed success.

No. Most would grumble but turn them in. And yes, I mean you, Mr. Cold Dead Hands Chairborne Commando. You'll deny it in this thread, but you'll rationalize it somehow, but you'll do it.

[DaveTN]

I suggest our 2A rights are just part of a growing list of grievances many have with our elected officials.

The SCOTUS has ruled. The 2nd gives you the right to own guns; but does not give you the right to bear them. Regardless of what any court rules that will never change; it’s States Rights.

Some states are really fighting trying to get the privilege to carry and we are fighting here because we can’t carry where liquor by the drink is sold.

People interested in “Pro Gun Legislation†are a very small group. If that is a concern to you; find those politicians that support your ideas and vote for them. No one except some tin foils hats is suggesting taking my guns away. Until that happens I am more interested to know what a politician will do to bring jobs back here.

While I generally agree with you on this, it's not that simple. The government's elimination of protectionism is the reason off-shore manufacturing has boomed, sending our jobs and dollars overseas, for example. To suggest the federal government (in particular) isn't complicit in getting us into this situation is wrong, imo.

One only needs to look at the stimulus bill waiting to be signed by the president to see how badly we are being screwed by our own government.

Protectionism is exactly what we need right now and Obama is warning Congress against it. We can only hope that they are smarter than he is.

And it is that simple… Without the government getting involved; we start buying products that are manufactured here. We get our manufacturing base back and people go back to work.

If the government is involved it could get ugly. You already have Canada and France whining that the “U.S. manufactured†language in some of the stimulus legislation could cost them jobs.

Duhhhhh… that is exactly what we need. GM’s and Ford are built in the U.S. where they should be; not in Canada or Mexico. But if buyers will tell the dealers that when they open the doors of those cars they need to see a U.S. city or origin, or they won’t buy them; things will change. Money talks and BS walks; where a product is manufactured can be controlled by the buyers.

[DRM]

Oddly enough, I lost all of my guns in an freak boating accident last week.

[Guest nraforlife]

Oddly enough, I lost all of my guns in an freak boating accident last week.

When the SHTF here, there will be plenty of military grade weapons available via the black market, just ask the Taliban and others whom seem to have NO problem getting their hands on them.

It is going to take something so massive to clean out the in DC that I do not want to even think about it.

Edited February 14, 2009 by nraforlife

[G27]

And it is that simple… Without the government getting involved; we start buying products that are manufactured here. We get our manufacturing base back and people go back to work.

You do realize we've historically had protectionism via import tariffs, right? Those were essentially removed about 20 years ago and guess what - Americans bought what was cheap, not what was made in the US. There's no way Americans can compete with Mexico or China wrt cheap manufacturing. So yah, the fed gov't is complicit - if they hadn't 'opened the doors' to cheap foreign goods we'd pay more for stuff but we'd keep jobs and money here.

Americans have proved over and over that quantity supersedes quality in daily life. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but since the government allows people the choice between buying cheap (foreign) goods vs buying better quality (domestic) goods, we've overwhelmingly chosen cheap (foreign).

That's just ONE example of how the government, in it's desire to placate the whole world (even at OUR expense), has screwed us.

I don't think the people in DC are evil or have some master plan to subjugate us, I think they have lost their way and make decisions based on feelings rather than the constitution.

So yah, the government has had it's role in getting us here. Surely Americans could have been more responsible, but a vast majority of Americans are less leveraged than the US government.

[Guest 70below]

Many worry that products will be more expensive if they buy US made items and they can't afford it....well low and behold the economy will be stronger, salaries will be better, and the dollar will be worth more if people insist on "Made in the USA"

[DaveTN]

So yah, the government has had it's role in getting us here. Surely Americans could have been more responsible, but a vast majority of Americans are less leveraged than the US government.

Okay, we will just have to agree to disagree on how we got here.

We have to fix it.

And I don’t mean years down the road I mean now. Obama wasn’t in office a week before he was backing up and saying that there will be change but it won’t come for years or maybe even during his administration. This loser either doesn’t have a plan or he doesn’t understand the problem.

For those that want a “Global Economy†we are on track for that to happen; all system are go.

But wait…. You want a global economy AND you want your lifestyle to stay the same or get better?

Can’t happen. Global economy is “spread the wealthâ€. Your kids and grandkids will not enjoy the lifestyle you had; they will be lucky to be able to own their own home.

[DaveTN]

Many worry that products will be more expensive if they buy US made items and they can't afford it....well low and behold the economy will be stronger, salaries will be better, and the dollar will be worth more if people insist on "Made in the USA"

Exactly.

And no one is asking those that can’t afford to buy U.S. manufactured to do so.

But those that can afford to should be supporting their country.

And it isn’t always true that American made will cost more. Let me give you an example....

The Smith & Wesson M&P is made by American workers in an American facility. Every piece of that gun including the magazines is made here. All the money from that purchase (other than possibly some foreign shareholders earnings) stays here.

The XD is made in Croatian by “HS Product†(formerly IM Metal). Springfield Armory is nothing more than an importer for this product. SA started with the HS2000 when they needed a bottom feeder line. The weapon became popular because it was cheap. Some improvements have been made and now it is in the same price range as the M&P. The bulk of the money you spend on it goes back to Croatian; the people of Croatia thank you.

Two weapons, both in the same price range. I don’t think anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the XD is a better weapon that the M&P…. so why buy it?

[Punisher84]

Two weapons, both in the same price range. I don’t think anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the XD is a better weapon that the M&P…. so why buy it?

Because S&W are a bunch of sell-outs who have produced some of the crappiest semi-autos this side of Taurus?

I understand the buy American rhetoric, but American needs to be better.

When Honda makes a car that just won't stop why buy a GMC?

When Suzuki makes a motorcycle that looks just as good as a Harley, runs great, and sounds good why would I pay 10,000 dollars more for a name?

The problem is that American companies have been OK with f'ing the customers over to make a buck, now there are bigger, better companies that are taking away their security blanket. If you want to revive the economy you ship all the illegals out, force American interests and companies to manufacture a better product and, for a while, give incentives to buy American.

You can also start by taking people like Nadya Suleman and locking them up in the looney bin before they have 14 kids needing 100% government aid.

[Guest bkelm18]

Because S&W are a bunch of sell-outs who have produced some of the crappiest semi-autos this side of Taurus?

I understand the buy American rhetoric, but American needs to be better.

When Honda makes a car that just won't stop why buy a GMC?

When Suzuki makes a motorcycle that looks just as good as a Harley, runs great, and sounds good why would I pay 10,000 dollars more for a name?

The problem is that American companies have been OK with f'ing the customers over to make a buck, now there are bigger, better companies that are taking away their security blanket. If you want to revive the economy you ship all the illegals out, force American interests and companies to manufacture a better product and, for a while, give incentives to buy American.

You can also start by taking people like Nadya Suleman and locking them up in the looney bin before they have 14 kids needing 100% government aid.

I'll have to agree. Sometimes its not just about price when comparing US vs Foreign made products, its about quality. When American companies build products and try to keep the price low, corners are cut and quality suffers. Thats one of the main reasons I shy away from American cars. I drive one now and it is showing its wear at just 100,000 miles. My previous car was a German made Ultimate Driving Machine. When I sold it, it was 17 years old and it had 240,000 miles on it with the original engine. Most of the parts were original. I would change the oil about every 3 months and the oil would come out almost as clear as the day it went in. I can't say the same for my current vehicle. I'm not saying all American products are crappy, just that sometimes it pays in the long run for the consumer to buy Foreign stuff.

[Punisher84]

I'll have to agree. Sometimes its not just about price when comparing US vs Foreign made products, its about quality. When American companies build products and try to keep the price low, corners are cut and quality suffers. Thats one of the main reasons I shy away from American cars. I drive one now and it is showing its wear at just 100,000 miles. My previous car was a German made Ultimate Driving Machine. When I sold it, it was 17 years old and it had 240,000 miles on it with the original engine. Most of the parts were original. I would change the oil about every 3 months and the oil would come out almost as clear as the day it went in. I can't say the same for my current vehicle. I'm not saying all American products are crappy, just that sometimes it pays in the long run for the consumer to buy Foreign stuff.

Exactly. I drive a Pontiac right now. Bought it showroom floor new in 2004 right after BCT. The car is 5 years old and only has 66,000 miles on it. Oil is changed regularly,etc. I have already spent close to a grand in repairs. Conveniently about 5-10000 miles after the warranty expired.

My buddy who drives a Honda has over 1k miles on it and it still sounds and drives like new. Most expensive thing he ever did to it was put tires on it.

[Guest bkelm18]

My buddy who drives a Honda has over 1k miles on it and it still sounds and drives like new. Most expensive thing he ever did to it was put tires on it.

1,000? You mean 10k or 100k?

[DaveTN]

Because S&W are a bunch of sell-outs who have produced some of the crappiest semi-autos this side of Taurus?

Oh One… In over 150 years of making guns S&W has produced one POS; the Sigma. It is the only Semi-auto you ever see brought up and it is brought up every time someone wants to justify their bottom feeder handgun.

I understand the buy American rhetoric, but American needs to be better.

They are….. There are many things that you can’t buy that are American Made. But where it matters the Americans are still at the top. Cars, Motorcycles, guns, and liquor….

However… if by “better†you mean “cheaper†we can’t do that and maintain our life style.

When Suzuki makes a motorcycle that looks just as good as a Harley, runs great, and sounds good why would I pay 10,000 dollars more for a name?

You shouldn’t if those were true statements. But it’s just more

I grew up riding motorcycles. I was a ricer through 13 Kawasaki’s and a Honda. I was a ricer because I couldn’t afford a Harley. Now I can.

Harley Davidson is not a real player in the crotch rocket category; if you buy one buy whatever flips your skirt. But Harley owns the heavy cruiser and touring categories. If you can’t afford to pay the extra 10K; don’t pay it. But don’t whine on here that your motorcycle is “as good as a Harley; but cheaperâ€. That is exactly what we are talking about.

Don’t be a hater.

The problem is that American companies have been OK with f'ing the customers over to make a buck

I buy American built GM’s but I’m no GM lover. I support my fellow Americans that work in industry here. No American auto maker should get a dime of government money that can be used to support jobs out of this country. Let Canada and Mexico help support the plants they have there if they want to keep those jobs.

If you want to revive the economy you ship all the illegals out, force American interests and companies to manufacture a better product and, for a while, give incentives to buy American.

You can’t force a company to manufacture a better product when they are already at the top. And you can’t make them sell it for the price of the POS import. You have to step up and support our companies.

If you can’t afford it no one is asking you to do it; but stay out of the way of those of us that are trying to do what’s right.

[Guest jackdog]

Dave,tn

Sorry… but our government didn’t get us in the economic disaster we are in now. The American people did. And we have to get out of it by ourselves. If you need a cause; there it is. Take it up and do something about it. Because this economic problem is as real a danger to our country and our Constitution as enemy boots on U.S. soil.

You kidding right. The government is exactly who got us into this crap.

Let's start with 1967 when we became a fiat based economy

We have a treasury dept and fed system that are a rule unto themselves. No one in government can check on what these clowns are doing.

The federal government propped up the housing industry for years through legislation.

Under Clinton the banks were pretty much forced to give loans to lower income families via hud ,freddie mac and fanny may.

Under GW bush wall street was de-regulated and given a free hand to do as they pleased.

just prior to GW bush leaving office TARP was authorized with absolutely no rules as to who got our tax dollars and absolutely no over site.

And know we have the the latest slap in the face the stimulus package.

I'm not saying that most Americans did not participate in this folly, but it was the damn federal government that is to blame for the laws they passed at the behest of the banking industry, our fiat money system and no way of controlling the fed and the treasury.

So I guess we are in disagreement.

[Guest bkelm18]

They are….. There are many things that you can’t buy that are American Made. But where it matters the Americans are still at the top. Cars, Motorcycles, guns, and liquor….

You're joking right? I think you are just blindly believing that since its made here it must be better. I'm sorry, that is in no way true, at all. I have owned two imported cars and two domestic cars. The imports beat the domestics hands down. No question about it. Guns? I can think of a certain austrian made firearm that appears to be on the top of many people's list. Liquor? You can't really argue about quality with consumables. To me, quality is about durability and longevity. A potato chip or a shot of liquor has neither of those.

[DaveTN]

So I guess we are in disagreement.

We can argue over a beer about what caused it. But in the meantime lets fix it .

[DaveTN]

I think you are just blindly believing that since its made here it must be better. I'm sorry, that is in no way true, at all.

And I think you either just want to argue about it or are trying to justify turning your back on your country and your family.

The imports beat the domestics hands down. No question about it.

Them buy them.

You can be part of the problem; maybe the rest of us can carry you.

[Punisher84]

Oh One… In over 150 years of making guns S&W has produced one POS; the Sigma. It is the only Semi-auto you ever see brought up and it is brought up every time someone wants to justify their bottom feeder handgun.

They've only been making semi-autos for what about 30 or so years?

Wonder why no department carries them hardly anymore?

They are….. There are many things that you can’t buy that are American Made. But where it matters the Americans are still at the top. Cars, Motorcycles, guns, and liquor….

Cars I don't think so. Motorcycles not really. Guns obviously because we are the only country that is large market. Liquor yea more or less.

Harley Davidson is not a real player in the crotch rocket category; if you buy one buy whatever flips your skirt. But Harley owns the heavy cruiser and touring categories. If you can’t afford to pay the extra 10K; don’t pay it. But don’t whine on here that your motorcycle is “as good as a Harley; but cheaperâ€. That is exactly what we are talking about.

Don’t be a hater.

I don't ride crotch rockets, I ride cruisers. Yea I like Harley, but I really don't think a Harley is a whole lot better than my Suzuki cruiser either.

Seriously, did you just call me a hater? Ok haven't been called that since 8th grade.

I buy American built GM’s but I’m no GM lover. I support my fellow Americans that work in industry here. No American auto maker should get a dime of government money that can be used to support jobs out of this country. Let Canada and Mexico help support the plants they have there if they want to keep those jobs.

So you'd rather buy a POS and support corrupt executives out of some misplaced sense of loyalty to a company that doesn't care about it's customers, only the bottom line?

You can’t force a company to manufacture a better product when they are already at the top. And you can’t make them sell it for the price of the POS import. You have to step up and support our companies.

If you can’t afford it no one is asking you to do it; but stay out of the way of those of us that are trying to do what’s right.

Um if the taxpayer's money is going to keep these idiots in business I think we should at least be able to ask something in return. I have alot of family that worked in the Detroit car making business and I know several that, if it weren't for the outrageous discounts they get on their vehicles, would drive those "POS" imports and some still do despite a discount.

Truth of the matter is I can afford it. I drive a Pontiac, wife drives a Dodge, I buy Kimber guns, snap-on tools, and drink Jack Daniels. I also thank you to not tell me where I can stand.

Since we're runnin off at the mouth and I didn't use it yet, here ya go

[Punisher84]

And I think you either just want to argue about it or are trying to justify turning your back on your country and your family.

Them buy them.

You can be part of the problem; maybe the rest of us can carry you.

Oh that's bull****. You can't make a solid argument so now you're gonna insult a veteran? Who carried who? You think you're some ****ing know it all because you were a cop in the most communist state in the ****ing Union? I'm about sick of you and you're BS logic and arguments. I rarely ever call somebody to the mat, but you seem to like to do it so I'm gonna say my piece on this one.

Jesus, Dave what's next on the agenda today kick an elderly man down the stairs because he drives a Toyota?