Church Security

[Dirtshooter]

Hi guys, searched and didn't find what I was looking for here. Do any of you that attend church that has a security team know if there are rifles used anywhere? The reason I ask is as you know it is 6 times harder to accurately shoot a handgun versus a rifle. I know of 1 church that has a couple of men in their vehicles in the parking lot in strategic places where they can view the entrances that carry AR's. If you think about it, a van or 4 door pickup could pull up and out jump 4-6 armed assailants and things could go very wrong very quick. Just asking to see if a rifle or 2 in the right places would help strengthen the security? For instance if a shooter happens to come in unnoticed with a concealed handgun or some concealeable gun and be close to the front of the church and the security were say towards the back of the church the distance could be 25 yards maybe more. Just thinking aloud and wanting your opinions. Thanks

[TGO David]

The White Settlement, Texas Church of Christ shooting was approximately 6 seconds in duration from start to finish.  These types of scenarios have historically been ended as soon as the good guys with guns responded.  Your team's response needs to be about speed and decisive, overwhelming action. 

That's why we carry a handgun.  It's right there with us.  Sending someone to acquire a carbine is going to temporarily reduce the size of your responding force and lengthen the amount of time it takes for them to respond.

As for the question about engaging a violent actor from a distance:  If possible you want enough team members spread throughout your facility at the entrances so that you don't have enormous gaps in coverage that make a 25-yard shot necessary.  If you can, lock the doors that can't be manned.  For everything else,  God gave us two legs and a heartbeat, so we use those things to run toward the threat and engage from a closer distance.

I wouldn't want to have to take a 25-yard shot through or over the top of a crowd of panicked people and am doubly sure I wouldn't want to have to deal with the legal "what if" quagmire that would arise from not being able to clearly determine friend or foe and the nature of the threat at that distance.

With that being said, is there utility in carbine use for CQ scenarios?  Yes.  Multiple points of contact onto your weapons system makes for a much more stable platform, and I'll take 30 rounds of faster-moving, more precise munitions any day.

If you can figure out a way to have a team member or two discretely toting an AR style weapon on their person, it might make sense to have in a pretty nightmarish scenario.  An AR "pistol" or SBR with a dot sight, bright weapon light, and collapsible brace/stock (think Law Tactical Folder mechanism) in a very nondescript backpack would be an easy way to bring something substantial to a room-clearing or a hostage situation until the police arrive.

My requirement of a safety team with these in use would be that they were manned at all times.  Not locked in closets or safes, and never left unattended for even so much as a potty break.  The method of carrying them discretely would have to be such that it is comfortable and non-fatiguing, and extremely discrete.  It also couldn't be their primary weapon.  That still needs to be a handgun, for fast access.

[E4 No More]

I would recommend considering the difference between possibility and probability. The imagination can come up with all sorts of possibilities that are not very probable. For instance, how likely are you going to have 6 people jump out of a van with AK's and AR-15's to attack your church? It's not likely to happen at all given that attacks thus far have been two shooters at most and that was statistically rare. [referencing the recent New Jersey attack by a couple of Hebrew Israelites] The odds are far greater that IF your church is attacked then it is likely to be one attacker. You should look at your church with the view of if you wanted to attack it then how would you do it? If you could find someone as crazy as you, then how would you do it with two? That is much more likely. You also have to consider not alarming the sheep. In that way I mean the anti-gun congregant who would be VERY alarmed knowing there are guns around him/her in a place where love and understanding are supposed to rule. Too much and they can be very vocal with the elders, and my have enough clout to effect decisions.

[pop pop]

I my recent church we set a safety team in place. We were unarmed because of insurance and liability reasons. I headed the team. We did have several that concealed carry but only for their own protection.  We never met and practiced, as a unit, with firearms because our church leadership did not want us too. The city ordinances, at the time we set our team in place, decreed that if one had armed security on site, it had to be an off duty Police officer, or a professional licensed security company person. Plus there were liability insurance and bond requirements also to cover the added armed security. It simply would cost a small congregation too much money.  This may have changed by now but I have not checked lately. 

In the 8 years our team was in place we had to deal with 9 different instances where they were called into action and had to respond. Two incidences were quiet dangerous, but ended well.  We had a mentally ill man come into out church who looked and acted much like the Texas shooter, but was not armed and was resolved successfully by our team.  Tell you how scary it was, we had ladies leave the service and go to the restroom to throw-up, they were so frightened. Most were disturbances and nuisance situations. 

If one of our concealed carrier was directly confronted with a serious situation, then that person acted on his own level of threat. 

Our church leadership was extremely protective of our peoples fear factor and did not want to scare them, therefore we never trained with the congregation, which I thought was a serious mistake. If you don't train then you have mass confusion on what to do, IMO. Our team did practice a little but very limited. IMO, they were wrong in their assessments, but they were our leaders so we abided by their directions. 

I can tell you, after church shootings our congregants were extremely scared, and wanted to know they were being protected, which I felt was wrong also because one's safety is their own responsibility. However like most people, they want someone else to protect them. I know many knew what I was and looked at me with mild contempt, most times, until something threatening happened in our community, and then they looked for me to be at my usual sitting position and then they felt safer. IMO our team was there with one hand tied behind the backs, but we still had several men step up to the challenge.  

Only advice I can give you is be careful and practice with your team "if possible." Also train you r church as well.  As far as long guns are concerned, it would be very hard, as no church would like for an armed guard to be standing in your entrance with a long gun present, IMO.  At least wise not all the time.  There are too many anti-gun people today.

Then like the Texas film showed, one would have limited time to lay hands on a  long gun, in 6 or 8 seconds, then be able to respond. Again that is my opinion. I say use a larger frame handgun, that you can be more accurate at short distances, and practice draw and shoot fast with accuracy. Like someone once said, "Make your draw slow, and smooth, fast."  Guys, that means a lot of good meaningful practice, weekly, if you want to be the best that you can be.  But also remember YOU must be in fear of death or serious bodily harm to respond legally.

Some advice, Just because we have guns on ourselves, we don't become "quazi" cops or security guards. It is a fine line to legality so be extremely carful because using that gun will change your life forever.  Be careful Dirtshooter and all. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by pop pop

[Mamba]

22 hours ago, E4 No More said:

You also have to consider not alarming the sheep. In that way I mean the anti-gun congregant who would be VERY alarmed knowing there are guns around him/her in a place where love and understanding are supposed to rule. 

Maybe in days gone by. In present day, given the escalation of incidents, I think most congregants welcome protection and knowledge there-of. Our church security carries, and most of us know that they do, and are thankful. Doesn't mean that I depend on them personally; my safety is my own responsibility.
As for options, there's a plethora of small 9mm fold-able PDW choices out there (SBR or otherwise), pistol chassis add-ons, and even an MP5 can be concealed with a bit of innovation. Yeah, as Security you might need to float on the fringes vs sit'n in the pews but that's not unusual IME.

[E4 No More]

26 minutes ago, Mamba said:

Maybe in days gone by. In present day, given the escalation of incidents, I think most congregants welcome protection and knowledge there-of. Our church security carries, and most of us know that they do, and are thankful. Doesn't mean that I depend on them personally; my safety is my own responsibility.
As for options, there's a plethora of small 9mm fold-able PDW choices out there (SBR or otherwise), pistol chassis add-ons, and even an MP5 can be concealed with a bit of innovation. Yeah, as Security you might need to float on the fringes vs sit'n in the pews but that's not unusual IME.

You'd think, but it wasn't just a few years ago, (after several church shooting including the one in Paducah), I heard a congregant talking anti-gun as he was walking up to the church remarking that he was glad guns weren't in his church. He was sooo wrong. He left a few months after he made that comment. I don't know why.

Stuff got real with my church after the church shooting in Antioch. You see, one of our church members that I knew for years was the Fiance, (and now, wife), of the young man who neutralized the shooter.

[DaveTN]

On 1/20/2020 at 10:24 AM, Dirtshooter said:

 If you think about it, a van or 4 door pickup could pull up and out jump 4-6 armed assailants and things could go very wrong very quick. 

Just thinking aloud and wanting your opinions.

Okay, as I read that my thoughts were that things are already as bad as they can possibly be. In that scenario a bunch of people would die if the local SWAT team was in the parking lot. Luckily church shooters are mentally ill terrorists. The odds of getting several of them together are probably worse than winning Powerball.

Train for what would be a likely scenario. That’s a shooter standing amongst a bunch of your people. Do whatever you need to do and make whatever plans you need to put your own shooter as close to the bad guy as you can.

If you have someone in a vehicle in the parking lot, I wouldn’t say it’s a bad idea for him to have a rifle in addition to a handgun. Just remember, if a shooter starts shooting in the parking lot, your primary goal is not to kill him; its to make him stop shooting. You opening fire at him with a handgun could cause that. Spending more time to bring a rifle into play may cost lives.

It’s why you train. You have to be prepared for any likely scenario. You have to be able to take out a shooter without shooting everyone around them. You may also find your self in a situation where you do have to put innocent people lives in danger.

No matter what you do; a bunch of people are going to sit around and arm chair quarterback what you did. If no lives are lost they are going to question if you needed to shoot at all, and if maybe you are just trigger happy. If multiple lives are lost there will be countless opinions of things you could have done. Most of those peoples opinions won’t matter; but some of them will impact your future.

[Mamba]

12 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Stuff got real with my church after the church shooting in Antioch. You see, one of our church members that I knew for years was the Fiance, (and now, wife), of the young man who neutralized the shooter.

Always gonna be haters, even in church. Yah, our church is in Antioch...not that one, but not that far. Very grateful for that young man, indeed.

[TGO David]

2 hours ago, Mamba said:

As for options, there's a plethora of small 9mm fold-able PDW choices out there (SBR or otherwise), pistol chassis add-ons, and even an MP5 can be concealed with a bit of innovation. 

Every Sunday that I serve, I carry 18rds in my handgun and 34rds on my belt.  On Sundays that I am not on rotation, I am still "serving" and only pare that back by reducing to 17rds spare on my belt, simply because I know I'll be sitting for a longer period and losing the extra mag makes that a little more comfortable because one less thing is jabbing me in my dad-bod.

I say this because at even my lightest load-out, I am +4 rounds (at least) over the capacity of a 3rd 9mm PDW's first mag.  Now I'm asking what sort of protracted engagement we're planning for if a single guy on my team is going to expend more than this.  The decision to bear the burden of a heavier load-out and responsibility of babysitting a PDW needs to be offset with something that makes it a desirable burden.

For me that's going to come down to caliber.  I'm not wasting that effort on a 9mm PDW.  It's going to need to be a rifle cartridge for it to make sense.  And even still we're talking about an item that is going to have a small niche to fill in a nightmare scenario.  It's not my go-to as a member of a church safety team.  That's still my sidearm because it's quickest.

YMMV.

[TGO David]

While I'm opining on things, let me offer my thoughts on the spectrum of scenarios:

1. Train for as many possibilities as you can.  Focus on the most likely, but include the absurdly unlikely as well.  When the day comes, the bad guy will have chosen for you which scenario you get to address.  It's going to be a pop-quiz.  Stack the deck in your favor.

 

2. Train to intercept potential threats before they get into your building.  You want your safety team at the doors being the friendliest people a visitor has ever met.  Invasively friendly.  Don't let a guy who is obviously dressed in a wig and fake beard, wearing a coat that isn't logical for the weather outside, like the shooter in White Settlement, into your building until you've made sure he isn't armed.

Learn to be "professionally impolite".  By that I mean demand to look inside bags, under coats, inside boxes or backpacks, etc.  As an agent of the church, it is "your" property and you get to turn people away if they refuse to disclose what they might be concealing.  It can save lives, and people will get over it if you're wrong -- or they'll find a new church.  They found yours and we shouldn't presume that God needs us so much that He can't lead them to another church.  We aren't that significant in His plans.  He's very adaptable.

BUT... be prepared for a fight if by stopping them and searching or asking or turning them away causes them to change their plan and start doing harm with you instead of with the congregation.  Be prepared for that eventuality.  It could happen.  If you think it might never, you're essentially just a door greeter who chose to carry a gun for some reason.

 

3.  We have mercifully been spared a wholesale terrorist attack on a church or synagogue in this country.  So far.  Just because it hasn't happened yet, it doesn't mean it won't happen sooner or later.  If you've read the Bible, you know that things aren't going to get better in this world.  They just get worse.  See point #1.

[Mamba]

On 1/21/2020 at 5:01 PM, TGO David said:

Every Sunday that I serve, I carry 18rds in my handgun and 34rds on my belt. I say this because at even my lightest load-out, I am +4 rounds (at least) over the capacity of a 3rd 9mm PDW's first mag. 

Yah, capacity wasn't my focus as much so as 3-point stability (and a good optic) for those longer shots. Mag-dump rarely/if-ever required, shot-placement is...given armored assailants these days. But we all have to work with the tools at hand, what makes sense, what we can afford.