Question about the "new" permit, then changing to "enhanced."

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, lock n' load said:

Am I wrong for thinking that way?

I think you are right for thinking people should know the law. All the laws that will impact their family and their freedom, not just the gun laws and the use of force laws; my experience is that too many don’t.

 I also think that a person should have professional handgun training. But if I agree that the government should require it; I no longer believe in the 2nd amendment. Therefore, I believe it is the responsibility of the individual to get that training, and not the responsibility of the state to see that they do.

[willis68]

I could not agree more, and it truly worries me that many folks will be allowed to carry and not know how to properly shoot their handguns, 

[BHunted]

On 1/16/2020 at 9:05 PM, lock n' load said:

I personally think the new permit is not a good idea. Showing some proficiency at shooting a stationary piece of paper gives the instructor some idea if the student can hit the broad side of a barn. Also, I wonder if the online class goes into details about common sense laws about using deadly force? There was a guy in GA that is charged with felony murder for shooting and killing a teen for stealing his cellphone. If I'm not mistaken, you don't have to take a class to get a CCW in GA. Just go to the courthouse, fill out some paperwork and if your BG check comes back clean you get your permit. I think all states issuing a permit to carry a gun should at least give some legal perspective on the use of deadly force in their state so that applicants know some basic rules. Most places you can't shoot someone over stolen property. If a person doesn't know that then they will be in for a rude awakening if the do. Am I wrong for thinking that way?

..and people want constitutional carry? 

[Steelharp]

1 hour ago, BHunted said:

..and people want constitutional carry? 

Exactly.

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, BHunted said:

..and people want constitutional carry? 

Yes. 
 

Everyone absolutely should get training and learn how to handle a firearm if they are to carry one. Rights come with responsibilities, but it is up to the individual to meet those. It’s not for the government to set arbitrary hoops to jump through before a right can be exercised. 

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, BHunted said:

..and people want constitutional carry? 

I do.

It’s too bad that a thief got killed while trying to steal a cell phone from an innocent victim.  That’s their fault for not understanding that you can’t shoot fleeing criminals. Most people know that.

If you shoot someone and there is some question about the legality of it; you will be tried in either criminal or civil court, or both.

You can find these kinds of stories all over the net. We hear all the time about how most HCP holders are so safe and living at the foot of the cross. That’s laughable. Should we pick out the cases where HCP holders committed murder and judge all HCP holders on those cases? Of course not, that ridiculous.

We live around animals that will kill us and eat us. We live around thugs that will kill us for no other reason than to take our car. Disarming us is a crime.

Don’t take this as me saying people don’t need to be trained; I am trained and I expect others to be. But that’s your responsibility.

[hipower]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I do.

It’s too bad that a thief got killed while trying to steal a cell phone from an innocent victim.  That’s their fault for not understanding that you can’t shoot fleeing criminals. Most people know that.

If you shoot someone and there is some question about the legality of it; you will be tried in either criminal or civil court, or both.

You can find these kinds of stories all over the net. We hear all the time about how most HCP holders are so safe and living at the foot of the cross. That’s laughable. Should we pick out the cases where HCP holders committed murder and judge all HCP holders on those cases? Of course not, that ridiculous.

We live around animals that will kill us and eat us. We live around thugs that will kill us for no other reason than to take our car. Disarming us is a crime.

Don’t take this as me saying people don’t need to be trained; I am trained and I expect others to be. But that’s your responsibility.

Agree with you Dave. If you think you are qualified to carry a firearm, you should be safe with it. And to me, "safe" means knowing your weapon and knowing how to handle it in puplic as well as in a class. I also believe the minimum requirements in a classroom setting are the bare minimum for public carry.

I've had a few classes, not nearly as much as I should have, and I still feel cautious when I leave home armed. Am I showing/printing? Am I sure I can/should remove this weapon from concealment? Am I willing/ready to use it? 

This and more goes thru my mind each time. Guess that makes me weak and timid. Maybe, but cautious. But I still remember my first carry trip. Did the traditional "Wally Walk." Was nervous as hell. Afraid I'd be seen, or worse yet...bend and drop the gun. lol

As I've gotten older, less mobile, and far less able to move quickly; I think about this a lot.

I do not want to shoot anyone. I hope I'm never in a situation where I have to make that choice.

But in the world we live in now, I know it could happen at any time.

Street crime, muggings, car jackings, and bold daylight home burglaries. All things we have to be aware of.

Am I ready? I hope and think I am. Do I think or wish I had more training than I've had? Yes.

Circumstances permitting, I intend to go further. For my own safety, and comfort in carry, defense and in daily life.

BTW, got sort of off the primary topic here. Is the 2 permit system good? My personal opinion is a resounding NO. It's too easy to get a carry permit like that. Then there's the "Online" permit situation. I really dislike that one. 

But in either scenario above, you, me, and everyone should have at least the basics from a face to face class to go armed. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[BHunted]

Point I was trying to make is some of you are worried about this new ccw doesn't require much effort. But on the other hand you want constitutional carry which may require nothing to get. I'm all for constitutional carry but worrying about the new ccw sounds a little off don't you think?

 

[DaveTN]

24 minutes ago, hipower said:

Agree with you Dave. If you think you are qualified to carry a firearm, you should be safe with it. And to me, "safe" means knowing your weapon and knowing how to handle it in puplic as well as in a class. I also believe the minimum requirements in a classroom setting are the bare minimum for public carry.

I've had a few classes, not nearly as much as I should have, and I still feel cautious when I leave home armed. Am I showing/printing? Am I sure I can/should remove this weapon from concealment? Am I willing/ready to use it? 

This and more goes thru my mind each time. Guess that makes me weak and timid. Maybe, but cautious. But I still remember my first carry trip. Did the traditional "Wally Walk." Was nervous as hell. Afraid I'd be seen, or worse yet...bend and drop the gun. lol

As I've gotten older, less mobile, and far less able to move quickly; I think about this a lot.

I do not want to shoot anyone. I hope I'm never in a situation where I have to make that choice.

But in the world we live in now, I know it could happen at any time.

Street crime, muggings, car jackings, and bold daylight home burglaries. All things we have to be aware of.

Am I ready? I hope and think I am. Do I think or wish I had more training than I've had? Yes.

Circumstances permitting, I intend to go further. For my own safety, and comfort in carry, defense and in daily life.

BTW, got sort of off the primary topic here. Is the 2 permit system good? My personal opinion is a resounding NO. It's too easy to get a carry permit like that. Then there's the "Online" permit situation. I really dislike that one. 

But in either scenario above, you, me, and everyone should have at least the basics from a face to face class to go armed. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

It’s fine that you want to require some kind of a stamp of approval from the government to carry a gun; you are in good company and I respect your opinion., even if I disagree with it. Are you implying that a TN HCP is it?

There is no middle of the road; its an all or nothing debate. It’s required, or its not. That's how I feel about putting private citizens or teachers as guards in schools. I’m good with that, provided they complete exactly the same training and maintain exactly the same qualifications as a Police Officer in the jurisdiction they are in; anything less is unacceptable.

But for a private citizen, you have a 2nd amendment right to carry or you don’t. In Tennessee we don’t. Now don’t take that wrong…I’m good with what we have until we get Constitutional carry. So if we get Constitutional carry it comes with the requirement of passing a test? That doesn’t sound like a right to me.

If I was the Police Chief of Murfreesboro or the Sherriff of Rutherford County I would offer HCP classes for free. I would also offer free seminars with the DA’s office on the use of deadly force.

[tnguy]

When I took my class, there was a couple turned up with some guns they'd just bought as a pair. I'm not sure which make & model they were but nearly every single round stovepiped on them. At least they found out with a paper target and not when their safety depended on it.

[hipower]

10 hours ago, DaveTN said:

It’s fine that you want to require some kind of a stamp of approval from the government to carry a gun; you are in good company and I respect your opinion., even if I disagree with it. Are you implying that a TN HCP is it?

There is no middle of the road; its an all or nothing debate. It’s required, or its not. That's how I feel about putting private citizens or teachers as guards in schools. I’m good with that, provided they complete exactly the same training and maintain exactly the same qualifications as a Police Officer in the jurisdiction they are in; anything less is unacceptable.

But for a private citizen, you have a 2nd amendment right to carry or you don’t. In Tennessee we don’t. Now don’t take that wrong…I’m good with what we have until we get Constitutional carry. So if we get Constitutional carry it comes with the requirement of passing a test? That doesn’t sound like a right to me.

If I was the Police Chief of Murfreesboro or the Sherriff of Rutherford County I would offer HCP classes for free. I would also offer free seminars with the DA’s office on the use of deadly force.

Re-reading the post, I see I didn't really make my point clear.

I think what I want to say is that if we have to be "overseen" by any body or regulation; I would prefer some form of "capability" being shown or proven, before being given said "permit.

Sort of like the requirement of testing to be getting a driver's license. Where at least minimum capability is shown before being turned loose on the highways.

I really am not putting this down well today. lol

[lock n' load]

My whole issue to this is just that there is no need for this new permit class. One permit structure is just fine. If one wants a permit then just save the money to get the HCP. As long as we are required by the state to obtain a permit to carry then proper marksmanship and common sense should apply. As others have said, some states won't recognize the new permit. What good is that if that permit is not recognized? I would love for constitutional carry to be the norm but I don't have faith that it will ever happen. In the mean time at least prove you can hit your target and understand the laws. Easier said than done in a life or death scenario. Could I do it? I hope so or I'll be in a world of s#&t. One thing I learned is that every bullet that leaves your gun has a lawyer attached to it. That and showing that you understand the basic concept of deadly force in self defense can mean the difference between going home or going to jail possibly. I dunno what the new course teaches but I doubt it matches what I learned in my HCP class back when I took it. I learned just enough to be dangerous. Practical tactical courses should be next.  I want to take some but the money thing keeps me from doing at the moment..

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by lock n' load

[E4 No More]

How did we ever survive without permits and range qualifications?

[DaveTN]

5 hours ago, lock n' load said:

I want to take some but the money thing keeps me from doing at the moment..

That is what keeps some folks from getting the HCP. 

[tnguy]

I started wondering what the impetus behind this legislation was. "It just makes things a bit cheaper" doesn't sound realistic. Scratch the surface and it's really not better than what we had before (unlike when the requirement to have a permit to carry in your car was removed). I suspect it was lobbied for by the same companies providing the online classes for speeding tickets.

[BHunted]

There are nifty apps for this...

 

[tnguy]

Why is it concealed-only anyway? I don't see anything about the difference in qualification requirements that would make a difference wrt concealed vs open carry.

[chances R]

Same old conversation.  One cannot be for constitutional carry and assume one is suddenly trained anymore than assuming a ECP class makes one qualified to carry routinely.  I have taught a couple thousand students,  and there is a very small percentage I would be comfortable with being downrange.  I think the class has some excellent legal information.  Classes of a tactical nature are strongly recommended/necessary.My opinion doesn’t solve anything.  But many of the posts contradict themselves.

[BHunted]

My wife has owned guns for years but never touches them unless I put my boots on.

If she wants to carry, I'm ok with that. Practice, practice, get your enhanced version then, practice, practice, practice. Did I say practice? 

• I've set up various drills and targets in my home so we can both stay sharp but she never practices. No practice, no ccw...
  Don't need her in panic mode and giving me a new butt hole nor not knowing when to draw in public and understand the rules of engagement..

[300winmag]

In my opinion, the politicians pulled this new two permit system for a couple reasons last year.

One, the politicians did not want to of course allow people to carry without licenses.  That scares a lot of these fake 'pro gun' so called conservatives. 

Two, the politicians also did not want to make the current permit system better as in cutting the restrictions on where people cannot legally carry with a permit.  Legal college campus carry was not passed.  People still question "Is this a legal sign?" when people in most states do not have such a silly concern.

A major gun lobbying organization probably failed and endorsed this junk instead of fixing what we already have and also getting permit free carry.  The organization and the politicians got to look pro gun to everyone without accomplishing anything.

[hipower]

8 hours ago, lock n' load said:

My whole issue to this is just that there is no need for this new permit class. One permit structure is just fine. If one wants a permit then just save the money to get the HCP. As long as we are required by the state to obtain a permit to carry then proper marksmanship and common sense should apply. As others have said, some states won't recognize the new permit. What good is that if that permit is not recognized? I would love for constitutional carry to be the norm but I don't have faith that it will ever happen. In the mean time at least prove you can hit your target and understand the laws. Easier said than done in a life or death scenario. Could I do it? I hope so or I'll be in a world of s#&t. One thing I learned is that every bullet that leaves your gun has a lawyer attached to it. That and showing that you understand the basic concept of deadly force in self defense can mean the difference between going home or going to jail possibly. I dunno what the new course teaches but I doubt it matches what I learned in my HCP class back when I took it. I learned just enough to be dangerous. Practical tactical courses should be next.  I want to take some but the money thing keeps me from doing at the moment..

 

 

Well said. There is no need for a 2 tiered permit structure.

[Dirtshooter]

Well I guess I will put in my 2 cents. I am for constitutional carry. To me the 2nd amendment says I have the right to keep and bear arms and that it shall not be infringed. Duh what in that says I can't carry a concealed gun or 2 without the governments okay, charging me a fee to do so?? I will say that there are a lot, maybe even the majority of gun owners that are not safe with a gun. I have seen plenty of hunters handle a firearm unsafely, I bet you all can think of a time or 2 also. I don't have the answers, but I believe Dave TN has the right idea, every, let me repeat every gun owner and every person that carry's owes everyone that is around them to be competent in the firearm they choose to carry. I know most of you have seen the cop that was in a school or some meeting showing his proficiency  with his Glock when he shot himself. Really it is people like that they shouldn't be toting a hawg leg around!! Makes all the proficient people looks like a bunch of bubba's that don't know gun safety. I apologize if your name is bubba. I have a good friend and that is his nickname.

[One1]

People don’t see the VALUE or lack thereof in these permits from either side of the line. 
 

People who go for the Enhanced don’t see value in a permit that barely gives you any rights, can only be used in your state, and costs NEARLY AS MUCH as the full permit because whether you pay for an online course or an 8 hr full course you’re still spending over $100 in the end. All people see is the $60 price tag and that they don’t have to take a real training  course. 
  
People going for the cheaper option are usually doing just that. With no concern for state to state laws they just want a cheap option. Once they carry for a while they will either be illegally carrying when they go out of town for holidays or travel - or leaving their gun at home. Something that we know is not a real option after you’ve carried for a while. Most wouldn’t go away to a strange area unarmed. They find out quickly how limited they are even in their own town - barely extending past the castle laws because you already were able to take your gun everywhere in the car. Yet spending almost as much in the end as the Enhanced permit, you end up with little more freedom than no permit. 
 

“I don’t have time to take a course” 

When are you going to practice? Never? Probably. People around where you will be shooting should be concerned. 
 

This is the worst permit ever. 

[DaveTN]

13 hours ago, One1 said:

This is the worst permit ever. 

It’s one of three options.

Have you been to a Tennessee HCP class?  Did something happen in that class that made you safer to be around the rest of us? People can be held responsible for their actions without having to pay a government appointed trainer to put their stamp of approval them.

[trevorst]

Where exactly do you see that the concealed carry permit is TN only or is this social media heresay.