Texas Church Shooting

[gregintenn]

A while back, I heard a guy ask a deacon at church whether he thought it would be o,k. to carry at church. The deacon told him that if something happened, he’d see at least a half dozen guns pulled, but it would be fine to carry, although  concealment and judicious marksmanship would be appreciated.

[mikegideon]

23 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

A while back, I heard a guy ask a deacon at church whether he thought it would be o,k. to carry at church. The deacon told him that if something happened, he’d see at least a half dozen guns pulled, but it would be fine to carry, although  concealment and judicious marksmanship would be appreciated.

Yeah. Don't need to be smashing any Jesus statues.  

[Trekbike]

8 hours ago, TGO David said:

There's a reason why I harp so much on training and actually going SHOOTING with your gun.  Proficiency comes with experience.  Experience comes from doing.  And most people need help doing it correctly, at least to begin with.  We all should spend more money on ammo, and more time pulling the trigger in purpose-driven drills, than we do on hoarding collections of guns.

 

Agree.  While I know it's a "shooting game", the few times I've shot IPDA matches it's showed me how much more time based and movement shooting I need to do.   Every time I've done it, I come away more humble than when I arrive.  

[deerslayer]

I think it was Massad Ayoob who said something like "shooting competitions are not gunfights, but gunfights are shooting competitions."  Competitive shooting has its uses.   

[pop pop]

It is my opinion if a church is going to have a safety team, the other church goers should be talked to also(train the audience). These church goers, most of them, ducked down, which is a good thing. It gave a clearer sight picture of the shooter plus got themselves out of the line of sight (fire) of the security team and shooter. 

After training our safety team, at my church, you would be surprised how  many people did not even know the street address of our church building. How can one call 911 and not even know the address. I had 2 guys that were designated 911 callers on our team.  My idea for 2 was one would be there on the day we needed him. 

This incident took place over a 6 second time period. How many of us would be ready and have lethal shots fired that quick. Common guys, you can't argue with success. True some of the guys made mistakes by, what appeared to be muzzling innocent church goers, but it has been my experience, we don't really see the sight angels they were looking at from one camera angle. 

Those "volunteers" did great in protecting their church family. It takes special men to go to the sound of gunfire, and apparently we see at least 6 men, mostly mature men, doing that.  One can nit pick this to the death, but look at it for what it is. A sad day for these people, but the best training film in a church setting, that has ever been filmed and shown to the public in real time.  Mr Wilson is to be commended for his excellent actions.

Those two poor volunteers, at almost point blank range, suffered greatly and in reality had very little chance of success coming from behind the curve in their own defense. I told my members that most times, when you respond, you draw the perps attention away from his intended targets, to yourself, and you need to understand that fact. This shooter reacted to the two volunteers, and had to deal with them, before he could continue his original purpose, what ever that was. Mr Wilson hit him at the perfect time causing him to react and miss his next intended target. 

 

Guys, that is textbook on what a safety team is put in place for. Fighting, for sure gun fighting, is nasty business and not antiseptic. Our team never faced a deadly confrontation, but had to deal with 11 bad situations, one just like this guy coming in with the hoody on and causing a disturbance. Ours turned out to be non life threatening, but still it happened and had to be dealt with. This hoodie guy was the real deal.  

We need to be praying for these good people, and even for Mr Wilson, because most likely hew ill need those prayers in the future, while dealing with taking another's life, even though he was totally in the right. This won't happen until he has settled down and has to begin assessing his actions in the darkness of his thoughts. PTSD is very real even if you are right, to most, not all, but most. 

I say well done, for a very serious situation and the security team brought this awful situation to an quick end. It could have been much worse, even though it is bad.  

Edited to add: Mr Wilson will need to adjust because he will now begin to live with "The Mark of Cain Syndrome."

Edited December 31, 2019 by pop pop
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[Erik88]

In case anyone was wondering what gun Wilson used.

 

 

[pop pop]

Just read an article where they interviewed Mr Wilson. He stated that he had to wait for a second so someone in the line of fire got out of the way.  He urged other churches to use the film, and train security teams also. Stated it is a necessary thing in todays society. Said he was sorry for what they did, but they were forced to do it.

That brings to mind a saying that was transcribed, on the Indian's Monument, at the Little Big Horn Battlefield, when we visited a few years back. That saying has stuck with since. It stated; "We killed them because they came here to kill us."     All I can say is WOW!     

The article/sister also said the shooter, who was dressed in disguise the day of the shooing, had attended the church on several occasions prior to the shooting. His brother committed suicide, on that same date, 10 years ago. His sister said she though he was on a suicide mission himself. She thinks that was his motive. 

He is a white middle aged man who had a prior record and had some mental illness.  People, their walking amongst us.    

[Omega]

Tragedy to be sure,  I'm glad first and foremost that only two lives were lost in this incident, but I'm sure danged glad it wasn't a part of some hate group.  Seems as we get closer to elections, the crazy hate groups keep raising their ugly heads.  I definitely need to get out and practice more, I'm definitely getting slower, 25 meter head shots is what I used to strive for, but now I'd probably opt for body shots.

[DaveTN]

There will be many that rush to critique this. The results speak for themselves. Those wanting guns banned will say “Two dead is too many”. Those of us that understand the real causes; know that its amazing there were only two dead.

From what I saw in the video the first member that had a gun; had no chance. He was killed as he was pulling his gun. The member with a gun at the back took out the shooter with a good shot. With adrenalin pumping and a bunch of people in the field, most could not have made that shot. I believe Gods hand was involved in that.

The rest that they keep showing in media pictures with their guns drawn like they were involved, were not; it was over. They certainly would have been needed if the initially shots hadn’t worked. It shows how fast a shooting goes down.

This video will be used as training for acting quickly when something, or someone, is suspect.

One story says the church gave him food, but he got mad when they wouldn’t give him money; who knows, he was a violent criminal.

I still shake my head at the fact that there are those that think the “fix” is to unarm law abiding citizens, while not wanting to put violent people in prison where they belong.

Prayers for those that lost their lives trying to protect their family and friends. 

[pop pop]

The Texas church video, as bad as it is, will do more good than anything that has been recorded in the recent past, IMO. Mr Wilson, who was the head of the security team, went to the audio booth and requested them to put a camera on the shooter when he walked in amongst them. He told a reporter that fact yesterday in an interview. He said red flags went up as soon and he was visualized and entered the church. Now it is not my intention to be callous about this, but to learn from it, and try to stop it from "possibly" happening in our congregation. . Kinda like how many times must one be burned before they actually see the elephant in the room!

I tried to get our church leadership to allow our team to not allow these type guys in the building, but try and deal with them outside. We already lock all entrance doors. I wanted the usher, when he recognized a possible problem, to come and get 4 or 5 team members and then intercept the suspicious person, and deal with them before they enter. With our experience with the mentally ill person, in our church a few months ago that had the hoodie on and scared the begebbies out of the people, I believe this would be a much better solution rather dealing with a potential problem in the auditorium where everyone is exposed. Turned out our guy didn't come for the spiritual food at all, but only wanted money to buy food. That need could have been met before he entered the building and terrorizing those around him. Just like the church leaders in Texas, our leadership wanted all to be allowed entry. Well, how did that policy work for the Texans? IMO, that policy is deeply flawed.

Yes, spiritual blessings and encouragement should freely come to those who truly seek it, so I ask did the shooter in Texas come for spiritual edification, or did he have another purpose on mind? Our hoodie guy wanted a cup of coffee and a doughnut. IMO, he should have been able to receive the means to attain his wishes in the outer area rather than in amongst our church. I was unable to convince the leadership this policy would work better.

Since I don't attend there any longer, I have no say in what they do now. By the way I changed congregations because I can't see how to drive well at night, any longer, and we are attending a congregation very close to where we reside. I love the brethren, at our previous church, very much and sincerely care about their well being.

Dave, in my experience, our leadership is lagging far behind in seeing the elephant in the room. I had hopes they would after the Antioch(18 miles from our building) shooting, and the incident where a converted Muslim kook was firing his pistol into church buildings, in 2 surrounding counties plus our own, on multiple occasions, but it didn't. I just don't know how to help people with those attitudes. I do understand our previous congregation gave out lettered to al the congregants about church safety, yesterday morning. Yes, this film will get some doubters attention and hopefully for the betterment of them all. If that happens that will be a good result of a sad very situation. 

[pop pop]

I saw an interview with Elizabeth Warren, dem running for Presidency. She watched the church shooting film and her response was, "I don't feel any safer since watching that man shoot another man." Do you feel safer watching that. I don't"

She still will not admit a good guy with a gun can stop a man evil man with a gun.  Her answer is to take all guns away from all people. However what she really is saying I don't want to be that person that needs to use that gun to protect myself. She wants someone to do it for her, IMO. I guess her and Joe Biden will shoot their shotgun, up in the air, to run off evil people. 

I really would like to know what her answer is for being attacked herself? What would she do? Wouldn't you like to hear her answer to that question?  Better still, since she wants to be Commander and Chief, how does she want all of us to respond if viciously attacked?   Why is it no one ask her that question? 

[Morgan88]

I don't know the answer.

Brings to mind a whole myriad of questions.  Assuming the security teams are well trained, after that, how many armed citizens of varying degrees of training and more so temperament do we want drawing and aiming a pistol in a crowded room?  So far I haven't seen many crowded rooms in church yet.  I am just visualizing shots fired in a crowded room and 30 people jumping up and drawing firearms not knowing who or where the shooter is.  Again the varying degrees of training and more so temperament and discipline.  Am I over thinking it?

Morgan88

 

 

[Omega]

1 hour ago, Morgan88 said:

I don't know the answer.

Brings to mind a whole myriad of questions.  Assuming the security teams are well trained, after that, how many armed citizens of varying degrees of training and more so temperament do we want drawing and aiming a pistol in a crowded room?  So far I haven't seen many crowded rooms in church yet.  I am just visualizing shots fired in a crowded room and 30 people jumping up and drawing firearms not knowing who or where the shooter is.  Again the varying degrees of training and more so temperament and discipline.  Am I over thinking it?

Morgan88

 

 

Overthinking it.  In a crowded room, there will be a "bubble" of people that have direct knowledge of events as they transpire.  If the shooter had not been taken out as fast as he was, there would have been enough armed people that could identify and challenge the shooter.  There is always a chance of friendly fire, no doubt, but what is the alternative, giving free rein to a shooter while LEO shows up and has the same exact friendly fire scenario too?

[E4 No More]

4 hours ago, Morgan88 said:

I don't know the answer.

Brings to mind a whole myriad of questions.  Assuming the security teams are well trained, after that, how many armed citizens of varying degrees of training and more so temperament do we want drawing and aiming a pistol in a crowded room?  So far I haven't seen many crowded rooms in church yet.  I am just visualizing shots fired in a crowded room and 30 people jumping up and drawing firearms not knowing who or where the shooter is.  Again the varying degrees of training and more so temperament and discipline.  Am I over thinking it?

Morgan88

 

 

As the security chief for my old church I had the pastor do a security awareness month covering various topics. One topic was telling folks that if they saw someone present a gun in the church then to get down below the oak pews and let the security team handle the situation. He pointed out that the pews offered better protection than standing up and trying to run. Will everyone do that under stress? Probably not, but it would certainly cut down on the number of people blocking a response.

[Quavodus]

5 hours ago, pop pop said:

I saw an interview with Elizabeth Warren, dem running for Presidency. She watched the church shooting film and her response was, "I don't feel any safer since watching that man shoot another man." Do you feel safer watching that. I don't"

She still will not admit a good guy with a gun can stop a man evil man with a gun.  Her answer is to take all guns away from all people. However what she really is saying I don't want to be that person that needs to use that gun to protect myself. She wants someone to do it for her, IMO. I guess her and Joe Biden will shoot their shotgun, up in the air, to run off evil people. 

I really would like to know what her answer is for being attacked herself? What would she do? Wouldn't you like to hear her answer to that question?  Better still, since she wants to be Commander and Chief, how does she want all of us to respond if viciously attacked?   Why is it no one ask her that question? 

"Pocahontus" as Rush Limbaugh calls her is a serious idiot. It should be illegal to be that dumb. She would throw her hands in the air and scream STOP! That would be her way of stopping a crazy shooter.

[AuEagle]

No matter how much good comes out of a situation like this church shooting, dem's won't speak of anything positive, only the prog/soc/comm agenda. Defense of one's self, family, friends, innocents doesn't fit their agenda which is total disarmament.

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by AuEagle

[Chucktshoes]