FPS Russia Update

[Chucktshoes]

34 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t know a single cop that would apologize or make excuses for making an arrest; unless it was a case where their discretion was taken away. (Felonies, DUI, and Domestic Violence; I had no discretion).

I had discretion in a misdemeanor drug situation. Usually their attitude directed that outcome. And that’s what I taught my kids, so they didn’t have to catch a criminal charge because they were being an idiot.

I’ve had numerous conversations with officers (usually with regards to drug laws) where they make the statement “I don’t make the laws, I just enforce them.” It’s usually followed closely by “if you don’t like it, vote somebody else in who will change the laws.”  I’ve been told that here on this board and in face to face conversations. I’ve heard it so many times and always said in almost the exactly the same fashion that it wouldn’t take much for me to believe that it’s from a class in the academy. 

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, Capbyrd said:

You made it clear that the GOVERNMENT (your way of typing it) was to blame, and not you.   You said that they made it "incumbent" on you to enforce it.   Incumbent, or necessary.    Most cops I interact with love to tell me they are just doing their job and play like they are victims to the evil legislators.   If that's not your position, sorry for lumping you in.   

So you think LEOs should only enforce laws that they agree with. Or that people should only be LEOs when they agree 100% with the laws.

Riiiight! 

[Capbyrd]

2 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

So you think LEOs should only enforce laws that they agree with. Or that people should only be LEOs when they agree 100% with the laws.

Riiiight! 

I believe that we as humans have a moral obligation not to infringe on each other's liberty and sovereignty.  Your chosen occupation does not exempt you from that.   

[E4 No More]

3 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I believe that we as humans have a moral obligation not to infringe on each other's liberty and sovereignty.  Your chosen occupation does not exempt you from that.   

So if someone murders your kid for being on their property you have no problem if the cop doesn't make an arrest because he doesn't agree with the law.

Riiight.

[DaveTN]

22 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I’ve had numerous conversations with officers (usually with regards to drug laws) where they make the statement “I don’t make the laws, I just enforce them.” It’s usually followed closely by “if you don’t like it, vote somebody else in who will change the laws.”  I’ve been told that here on this board and in face to face conversations. I’ve heard it so many times and always said in almost the exactly the same fashion that it wouldn’t take much for me to believe that it’s from a class in the academy. 

The statement that they don’t make the laws; they just enforce them is not making excuses; it’s a statement of fact.

Most cops don’t want to arrest everyone that they catch with a little weed. But most cops know that the legalization of recreational weed will lead to an increase in crime. That’s not an opinion; that’s a fact.

I smoked weed when I was young; most from my generation did. I don’t like it is why I don’t smoke it. Alcohol is worse than weed…again, that’s not an opinion; that’s fact. I would guess more than half the crimes I dealt with involved someone that was drunk or high.

I don’t care if they legalize weed for recreational use. I just want them to enforce the laws that are on the books and send violent criminals, burglars and thieves to prison. If we don’t have enough room; build more prisons. But the same people that want dope legalized want people to believe our prisons are full of good people that got caught with a bag of weed; noting could be further from the truth.

Drug users and drug dealers want folks to believe that the opioid death crisis is from prescription meds. Again, nothing could be farther from the truth. The people are dying from heroin and fentanyl being brought into this country and sold on our streets by murderers.  They need to be sent to prison, not slapped on the wrist and put back on the street.

[DaveTN]

6 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I believe that we as humans have a moral obligation not to infringe on each other's liberty and sovereignty.  Your chosen occupation does not exempt you from that.   

I agree. And when I was a cop, both citizens and Police were justified in the use of deadly force to stop a forcible felony or keep a forcible felon from escaping. I’d be okay with the legalizing any drug if the deadly force laws were changed back to where we could kill forcible felons. Of course, we know that will never happen, because parents don’t want their kids killed while they are committing violent crimes. And they would rather see an innocent person on trial for killing their kid if the person happened to make the shot as their violent kid was turning to run.

[Chucktshoes]

13 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

The statement that they don’t make the laws; they just enforce them is not making excuses; it’s a statement of fact.

Most cops don’t want to arrest everyone that they catch with a little weed. But most cops know that the legalization of recreational weed will lead to an increase in crime. That’s not an opinion; that’s a fact.

I smoked weed when I was young; most from my generation did. I don’t like it is why I don’t smoke it. Alcohol is worse than weed…again, that’s not an opinion; that’s fact. I would guess more than half the crimes I dealt with involved someone that was drunk or high.

I don’t care if they legalize weed for recreational use. I just want them to enforce the laws that are on the books and send violent criminals, burglars and thieves to prison. If we don’t have enough room; build more prisons. But the same people that want dope legalized want people to believe our prisons are full of good people that got caught with a bag of weed; noting could be further from the truth.

Drug users and drug dealers want folks to believe that the opioid death crisis is from prescription meds. Again, nothing could be farther from the truth. The people are dying from heroin and fentanyl being brought into this country and sold on our streets by murderers.  They need to be sent to prison, not slapped on the wrist and put back on the street.

You seem to have issue with understanding the definition of the word “fact” so much so that you declare statements that are not only opinions, but ones not supported in any way by the available evidence as fact. A lot of the “facts” that people know just aren’t so. 
 

https://www.coloradopolitics.com/news/despite-claims-data-show-legalized-marijuana-has-not-increased-crime/article_64dd25c9-bcb1-5896-8c62-735e953da28a.html

 

https://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/drug-policy/marijuana-legalization-crime-driving-research/

 

http://www.msnbc.com/all/does-marijuana-lower-the-crime-rate

Edited December 3, 2019 by Chucktshoes

[DaveTN]

13 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

You seem to have issue with understanding the definition of the word “fact” so much so that you declare statements that are not only opinions, but ones not supported in any way by the available evidence as fact. A lot of the “facts” that people know just aren’t so. 

Facts are facts. But replace the word “fact” with “common sense”. Common sense tells me that there is no way legalizing a drug will not cause a rise in crime, especially burglary and theft to get money to buy the drug. Believing that crime won’t rise is ridiculous.

I’m not going to post a bunch of information that will show I am right; I just ask you to use common sense. Everyone knows that legalization of drugs cause a rise in crime. How could it not? Where do you think that money comes from? 

[Capbyrd]

1 minute ago, DaveTN said:

Facts are facts. But replace the word “fact” with “common sense”. Common sense tells me that there is no way legalizing a drug will not cause a rise in crime, especially burglary and theft to get money to buy the drug. Believing that crime won’t rise is ridiculous.

I’m not going to post a bunch of information that will show I am right; I just ask you to use common sense. Everyone knows that legalization of drugs cause a rise in crime. How could it not? Where do you think that money comes from? 

Plenty of people have jobs.   Per the Trump lovers, more than ever!  I would imagine that, much like alcohol, they use their paychecks to feed their hobbies.   Kinda like gun owners.   I think most people on this board probably use jobs to pay for their fun time. 

 

[DaveTN]

12 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Plenty of people have jobs.   Per the Trump lovers, more than ever!  I would imagine that, much like alcohol, they use their paychecks to feed their hobbies.   Kinda like gun owners.   I think most people on this board probably use jobs to pay for their fun time. 

 

And there you have it…entitlement!

Those that have jobs and smoke their weed at home are not the problem. Although many businesses are still going to do drug testing and fire those that fail. The aircraft industry is not going to let you make aircraft parts if you can’t pass a drug test…oops. That’s a liability that they will never ok.

However….I am not talking about those people.

Illinois is going to legalize recreational pot next month. Downstate will see a big jump in crime. In the Chicago area it won’t matter; they don’t enforce the laws on violent crime now, and they will do everything in their power to not allow the impact of legalized drugs to be shown.

[E4 No More]

19 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Facts are facts. But replace the word “fact” with “common sense”. Common sense tells me that there is no way legalizing a drug will not cause a rise in crime, especially burglary and theft to get money to buy the drug. Believing that crime won’t rise is ridiculous.

I’m not going to post a bunch of information that will show I am right; I just ask you to use common sense. Everyone knows that legalization of drugs cause a rise in crime. How could it not? Where do you think that money comes from? 

I have to disagree with you here. Making alcohol illegal gave rise to criminal power. It did not lower crime. Crimes from drugs tends to be from addicts seeking enough money to acquire the illegal drug, and the ensuing turf wars of the suppliers. Make marijuana legal and easy to obtain then the price decreases and thus the addicts are not so desperate to rob people. If it's plentiful, (particularly if the government is the source), then the price drops. You know, the whole "Supply versus demand" thing. 

[DaveTN]

11 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

I have to disagree with you here. Making alcohol illegal gave rise to criminal power. It did not lower crime. Crimes from drugs tends to be from addicts seeking enough money to acquire the illegal drug, and the ensuing turf wars of the suppliers. Make marijuana legal and easy to obtain then the price decreases and thus the addicts are not so desperate to rob people. If it's plentiful, (particularly if the government is the source), then the price drops. You know, the whole "Supply versus demand" thing. 

Has legalization made legal pot cheaper?

Chicago will be happy to hear their crime rates will drop next month due to free enterprise.

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Facts are facts. But replace the word “fact” with “common sense”. Common sense tells me that there is no way legalizing a drug will not cause a rise in crime, especially burglary and theft to get money to buy the drug. Believing that crime won’t rise is ridiculous.

I’m not going to post a bunch of information that will show I am right; I just ask you to use common sense. Everyone knows that legalization of drugs cause a rise in crime. How could it not? Where do you think that money comes from? 

Dave, is this a Marx Brothers film? I mean what you are essentially saying right here is “who are you going to believe? Me or your own eyes?” 
 

If the choice is to believe hard data that says one thing or somebody saying the opposite with nothing more to back up their position other than an assertion of “common sense” it’d be ridiculous to choose the latter. 

[E4 No More]

27 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Has legalization made legal pot cheaper?

Chicago will be happy to hear their crime rates will drop next month due to free enterprise.

I'm not a customer so I couldn't say. It follows the rules of capitalism, however.

[DaveTN]

27 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Dave, is this a Marx Brothers film?

Maybe. But no matter how desperately you try no one with common sense is going to believe that crime doesn’t go up when drugs are legalized. It defies common logic.

[GlockSpock]

It’s common sense that anyone that currently purchased marijuana is technically breaking the law. 
 

It’s common sense that for the people that currently break the law in this regard do not care about the law. 
 

It’s common sense that anyone that currently refrains from purchasing marijuana for the sole reason that it is illegal on the Federal level is likely a law abiding citizen. 

It’s common sense that anyone that would partake in the use of marijuana after Federal legalization would likely remain law abiding in other areas as well. 
 

It’s common sense that anyone that currently steals in order to fuel a drug habit cares not about drug laws nor laws on theft. 
 

It’s common sense that someone whom refrains from the use of marijuana currently for the sole reason that it is Federally regulated would be unlikely to resort to crime in order to fuel their theoretical future and legal use of the drug if legalized.  
 

It’s common sense that I can do this all day. 

[Capbyrd]

8 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

It’s common sense that anyone that currently purchased marijuana is technically breaking the law. 
 

It’s common sense that for the people that currently break the law in this regard do not care about the law. 
 

It’s common sense that anyone that currently refrains from purchasing marijuana for the sole reason that it is illegal on the Federal level is likely a law abiding citizen. 

It’s common sense that anyone that would partake in the use of marijuana after Federal legalization would likely remain law abiding in other areas as well. 
 

It’s common sense that anyone that currently steals in order to fuel a drug habit cares not about drug laws nor laws on theft. 
 

It’s common sense that someone whom refrains from the use of marijuana currently for the sole reason that it is Federally regulated would be unlikely to resort to crime in order to fuel their theoretical future and legal use of the drug if legalized.  
 

It’s common sense that I can do this all day. 

 

Let's just take those first couple a step farther and anyone that does 1 mile per hour over the speed limit also has NO regard for the law and is probably gonna axe murder everyone they meet.  

[Omega]

1 minute ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Let's just take those first couple a step farther and anyone that does 1 mile per hour over the speed limit also has NO regard for the law and is probably gonna axe murder everyone they meet.  

Only those that don't own guns, duh. 

We can play what-if back and forth all day, and 'facts' can be how ever they choose to write the report/story left/right etc.  There is valid reason to think drugs and crime are linked, the 'facts' are right there in Colorado, Seattle, San Fran etc.  There is a great story I seen on youtube about Seattle, where my son just moved to (Redmond, but close enough).  It goes into great detail on what we are discussing, legalized drugs, refusing to prosecute etc.  Long, but worth it.

Facebook if that is your thing.

 

 

[Capbyrd]

1 minute ago, Omega said:

We can play what-if back and forth all day, and 'facts' can be how ever they choose to write the report/story left/right etc.  There is valid reason to think drugs and crime are linked, the 'facts' are right there in Colorado, Seattle, San Fran etc.  There is a great story I seen on youtube about Seattle, where my son just moved to (Redmond, but close enough).  It goes into great detail on what we are discussing, legalized drugs, refusing to prosecute etc.  

 

There is valid reason to think that prohibition and crime are linked.   And then your last sentence has as much to do with it as anything.  If actual crime is prosecuted and properly punished, crime rates will drop.  We need massive criminal justice reform.  Start with getting rid of THOUSANDS of laws.   An easy way to tell will be is there a victim, other than the state.   If the answer is no, then its not a crime, delete it from the books.   After that, start actually punishing people convicted of a crime.   Give public defenders a chance to actually familiarize themselves with cases and the ability to mount a proper defense.   Prison reform also needs to happen.   Every prison should be self sustaining.   How they make that happen, I don't care.   But the prison system should never cost law abiding citizens.  

[GlockSpock]

20 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Let's just take those first couple a step farther and anyone that does 1 mile per hour over the speed limit also has NO regard for the law and is probably gonna axe murder everyone they meet.  

I'm honestly not even sure whether you posted this in agreement or opposition to me, but I burst out laughing at your comment.

You win, Sir.

[DaveTN]

26 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Every prison should be self sustaining.   How they make that happen, I don't care.   But the prison system should never cost law abiding citizens.  

Only if they can do that without taking work from business owners and workers that aren’t criminals. Turning all our prisons into manufacturing facilities using free labor isn’t going to fly.

I don’t mind my taxes being used for law enforcement, fire departments, and prisons. I’m so tired of hearing that prosecutors can’t do their job because the jails and prisons are full; then build more.

Yes, we need to get rid of some laws. But legalizing drugs that are killing both our youth and adults isn’t an answer.

[E4 No More]

12 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

But legalizing drugs that are killing both our youth and adults isn’t an answer.

Nicotine is a "drug" that's killed millions. Should we outlaw that too?

Alcohol is a very powerful "drug" that's killed millions. Should we outlaw that too? If so, how would you expect a different result from the last time that we tried that?

[DaveTN]

12 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Nicotine is a "drug" that's killed millions. Should we outlaw that too?

Alcohol is a very powerful "drug" that's killed millions. Should we outlaw that too? If so, how would you expect a different result from the last time that we tried that?

I have never disagreed that alcohol is worse than weed. But legalizing weed because alcohol is legal doesn’t make sense. People think that because alcohol is legal; driving drunk is no big deal. Then they kill someone and go to prison; destroying their lives and possibly their family. If they are caught before they hurt someone, and they lose their job or destroy any chance of the career they were working towards; is often a result.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. They need someone like me as the Drug Czar. Instead of starting at the bottom and working my way up; I would start and the top and work my way down. The time and the cost would be much less, and you wouldn’t need a bunch of Feds to do it; your local PD could do it. You would also need less prison space, your army of low level dealers won’t have anything to get arrested for; they won’t have product.

Of course, you would need some very special people that can’t be bought or intimidated.

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Let's just take those first couple a step farther and anyone that does 1 mile per hour over the speed limit also has NO regard for the law and is probably gonna axe murder everyone they meet.  

Technically, you can't be charged for 1 mile over the speed limit because the machines aren't that accurate. They certify to be accurate to 1 MPH plus or minus. At least that's the way it is with RADAR.

[gregintenn]

23 hours ago, E4 No More said:

I have to disagree with you here. Making alcohol illegal gave rise to criminal power. It did not lower crime. Crimes from drugs tends to be from addicts seeking enough money to acquire the illegal drug, and the ensuing turf wars of the suppliers. Make marijuana legal and easy to obtain then the price decreases and thus the addicts are not so desperate to rob people. If it's plentiful, (particularly if the government is the source), then the price drops. You know, the whole "Supply versus demand" thing. 

Once it is legal, the government can tax it, and tax it they will. That would negate any price decreases due to added availability.

I’ve no idea what pot goes for, but I’m guessing it isn’t much higher than tobacco.

Edited December 4, 2019 by gregintenn