Bear Protection

[Guest macmonkey]

I'm planning on spending a lot of time camping and hiking up in the Smokies this summer. It's common knowledge that there is a rather large Black Bear population up there. I'm not too concerned with it as there has never officially been an attack in this part of the country but seeing as I'll be carrying for protection against 2-legged threats I began to wonder about the effectiveness of either a .40 or .45 in the event that I encountered an angry bear. Obviously a .45 would be better from a ballistics standpoint but my .40 has double the capacity.

I just wanted to post a few links that offered some input upon the effectiveness of a pistol (semi or revolver) against a bear attack. If you read the marketing pitch on the "bear spray" websites you would be led to believe that guns are only about 40% effective while the spray is around 95% :/

Anyways I thought I would share.

First watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=uMbnmLLnsfw

Here are some links to stories, discussions and more:

http://sleepless.blogs.com/george/2003/10/bear_killed_wit.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-83784.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080728203330AANXhaG

http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/Tim_Treadwell.html

http://www.tonyrogers.com/humor/ak_bearattack/index.htm

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/general-handgun/67651-40-s-w-vs-357-mag.html

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=124560&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

http://www.city-data.com/forum/montana/443748-gun-take-down-grizzly.html

Edited February 15, 2009 by macmonkey

[Ridgerunner665]

45 acp loaded with 230 grain Hornady Flat Point FMJ bullets...pushed at or near +P velocities (900-950 fps).

That load will hit hard and penetrate deep...no matter how many legs the threat has.

[waynesan]

I'm not too concerned with it as there has never officially been an attack in this part of the country

Ughhh, you might want to reconsider that statement:

http://skinnymoose.com/moosedroppings/2006/05/27/tennessee-bear-attack-originally-posted-406/

http://www.tricities.com/tri/news/local/article/ap_florida_boy_survives_bear_attack_in_great_smokey_mtn_national_park/12594

[Jasongar8]

i would think that you will be ok with either one and long as you shoot good ammo. I you were camping in brown bear country then i would recommend at least a .44 revolver or a 12ga shotty with 00 buck.

-Jason G

[Warbird]

Can't take a shotgun hiking in the park with you. Oh and buck shot isn't worth much on a pissed bear, may slow him a bit, may not. Slugs, slugs.

I have at times carried my Glock .40. I don't necessarily consider it sufficient for bear, it is sufficient for most animals or a bad guy walking about looking for trouble, which I've never seen in the woods personally.

Usually I carry a S&W 681 .357 revolver with some nasty rounds in it. At times my .45LC. I prefer a DA revolver. If I am trying to kill a bear with a pistol it is likely at me or on me. I need to be able to possibly fire while being attacked. Bears are exceptionally fast. They be on top of you at times before you can cycle your rifle if you miss. A revolver is easier than an auto in these instances.

Keep in mind usually it is a sidearm to a rifle for me though. If I am using a pistol it is because it is too late for the rifle or its been knocked down etc.

As always aim for vital areas, head, spine, throat. A shot to the gut will not slow him down.

People will tell you they have known of bears to be killed with just about everything. That is true, but it is usually a docile bear being hunted when the shooter gets to aim careful and pick the best spot. An angry bear is another matter entirely. I have known of bears to take a shotgun slug in the face and keep going.

Carry the biggest thing you can comfortably carry, ie. not a Ruger Redhawk with a 7 1/2" bbl. I like the 357, 45 LC, .44. It's a survival weapon not a hunting one, you don't need a 454 or 50.

[creeky]

I've backpacked three times in the smokies and have seen Bears

every time. Closest was two Bears about 15 feet from us. Even walked up

on a sow and her cub once. Also had one room in across the trail in front of

me about twenty feet up. Typically they aren't a big deal.

Just give them their room, pay attention and don't allow yourself to

get between you their cubs... if they have some.

Also hang your food up (they have cables at almost every campsite in the backcountry), and Please don't cook where you eat. The smell of food

gets in your tent, in your stuff and that is what causes problems. Plus I have

seen people to lazy to walk 100 foot to throw food or pour grease out and just

dump it in the fire ring or ten feet away. That just causes problems for the next hiker that may be using that spot the following night.

In backpacking it's all about weight, weight, and weight. Personally I never carried a firearm while backpacking. (Plus it wasn't legal.) Now, I'm still not sure I would. If I did I would borrow an S&W .38 airweight. In my opinion its not about shooting the bear... it's about scaring it away. The sound alone should send it on it's way. Again YMMV... just my opinion. (I also hike with friends so I'm not that concerned about two legged predators.)

Typically our Bear defense we have worked out is for my brother-in-law to trip his son-law while I squirt Honey on his backpack. (Then we run away screaming like a bunch of little girls.)

[BBill_TN]

Yes you don't have to be faster than the bear; just faster than your slowest friend.

I do intend to exercise our new right to carry in the Smokies when I go, but mostly only for the reason that a right that is not exercised tends to go away.

Very few attacks over the lifetime of the park (by bears that is)...think that I would just pack for two legged variety; but I still think of that as a rare problem in the backcountry......of course around trailheads/portions of trails near roads, etc...the problem is more prevalent.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I go backpacking in the Smokies a lot. Last year, we came upon a mother bear and three cubs. Fun to watch. They were on the trail ahead of us, so we made some noise and they wandered off the trail. Came across a young bear on the way in on the next trip, he took off before we laid eyes on him. My girlfriend was way ahead of me, as I am a fat ba$tard, and I saw another black bear tearing into the bottom of a fallen tree, looking for grubs. I stopped to watch him (he was about thrity yards uphill from me), and when he saw me, he got wideeyed and took off up the hill. I don't think you will ever have problems with bears as long as you hang your food up and pay attention to your surroundings.

Now two legged varmints? There are some STRANGE characters in the backcountry. I would definitely carry something to defend yourself in that regards. I use to carry my Gerber LMF with me and wear a boonie hat. My pack is an old ALICE. Look like someone not to mess with, but be friendly in camps. Never have had a problem and met some great people. There seem to be a lot of Iraq/Afghanistan war veterans hiking the trails these days. If you're lucky, you might run into one of these guys and hear some great stories. Just be sure to share the booze you're not supposed to have packed away with them.

[Guest macmonkey]

Hey Guys,

Yea I have no delusions of playing hero by killing an attacking bear with my .40 rather I was just curious as some freaky things have happened and I at least wanted to do the research which is pretty far on both sides of the discussion.

I'm the type of guy that reads a lot - (A LOT) - and I've read 5 different books that cover bear encounters etc... so I'm prepared to give them space, make noise and hold my ground.

I've forked over extra $$$ for lightweight equipment to make room for the weight of carrying a reasonable sidearm and I'm not talking about hiking the A.T. rather doing a series of weekend camps.

I've used a pistol 2 times to simply scare animals (potentially rabid, hostile) and although I certainly wouldn't want the trouble of facing the aftermath of a discharge in a National Park I still think it's a good idea to carry.

Happy hiking to anyone else spending time outdoors this spring.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I'll be backpacking hopefully within the month. See you on the trails. Don't shoot me, cause I'm about as big around as a bear.

[nightrunner]

i think that i would have no less than a .44mag in bear country. either a 4'' redhawk in .44MAG or a super redhawk alaskan in .44 or .454 or a S&W 460 or 500 in 2.5 inch or 4"

[Guest medic66]

i think that i would have no less than a .44mag in bear country. either a 4'' redhawk in .44MAG or a super redhawk alaskan in .44 or .454 or a S&W 460 or 500 in 2.5 inch or 4"

you are definately right on the money. after living in colorado for nearly 16 years and seeing lots of bear, i always carried my 475 linebaugh when i was in the backcountry. bears, especially large pissed off ones, have an amazing ability to absorb projectiles. if you have to take a shot at a 600 lb pissed off bear coming at you at 30 mph, with a .45, then you had best be a real good steady shot.

[Guest RISC777]

A 40mm Kampf --

Or, a S&W 460 bear kit --

:)

[Guest SUNTZU]

If you go backpacking a lot, I'd say that bear kit would only make it two trips max before you changed your mind and left it at home. That really goes for other big bore firearms as well. Weight and space are at a premium. The biggest danger you are going to have to defend yourself from are two legged critters. I have seen some strange, strange, strange people up there. The first time I did the lower Abram's Creek trail, there was a stabbing at Abram's waterfall between two drunks. That is what you need to protect yourself from. By the time you are at your first campsite, most people are going to be too worn out to do anything.

Read up on backpacking do's and don'ts, then follow the do's, and you should never have a problem with bears, coons, skunks, and snakes. Snakes are my biggest worry, as it is hard to see the copperheads against leaves on the trail in the fall. Look for triangles. Watch where you put your feet and hands. It's not Fallujah, its the GSMNP. Bears aren't going to be hunting you down. Enjoy yourself.

Oh, and buy a headlamp. I use an EOS 2. Best purchase for backpacking, that and a water filter.

Edited February 14, 2009 by SUNTZU

[Guest Ggun]

I'd be more concerned about wild boar. Those dang things are scary.

[Guest ibavol]

Quote from OP:

"I'm planning on spending a lot of time camping and hiking up in the Smokies this summer. It's common knowledge that there is a rather large Black Bear population up there. I'm not too concerned with it as there has never officially been an attack in this part of the country but seeing as I'll be carrying for protection against 2-legged threats I began to wonder about the effectiveness of either a .40 or .45 in the event that I encountered an angry bear. Obviously a .45 would be better from a ballistics standpoint but my .40 has double the capacity."

FWIW, I had the opportunnity to go to Alaska and fish for salmon in some pretty remote areas that had bears fishing the same streams. Before I left, I call the Alaska Fish and Game and spoke to one of the officers. I asked a very similar question as yours because I own a Glock 30 and 21 loaded with +P 230 gr. He recommended a pump shotgun loaded with slugs first or a magnum revolver in 44 mag. (I'm sure a 454, 500, 480 would do). He suggested a manual action firearm to eliminate ANY possibility of a jam at a critical moment. I know, I thought the same thing that my semi auto had never failed me, but the more I envsioned a bear attack, the more sense he made. I actually ran into quite a few anglers who were carrying shotties with 18" bbl in a sling over their shoulder. Seemed a bit cumbersome to me but they said loaded with slugs, it was the real deal for bear.

Not wanting to lug around a shoulder fired weapon, I bought a S&W 629, with a 6" barrel. A 4" would probably have been more comfotable to carry but my 6" in good leather and a good belt did just fine. Happened to find one with a non-fluted cylinder which I like. I opted for a 44 instead of a 454 or higher because I wanted to deer hunt with it and didn't need that much power.

Next I needed the most effective round I could find. Ended up with Federal Premium 300gr flat nose CastCore ammunition. I shot 25 practice rounds and I gotta tell you I did not feel the least bit undergunned. Actually, I wouldn't want more gun, unless ported, and still feel comfortable with fast follow up shot, heaven forbid I needed to.

Sorry for the long post, but if you can't carry a slug gun, I would recommend a 44 mag with the 300 grainers. IMHO

Hope this helps.

[Ridgerunner665]

To clarify my previous post:

I never said a 45acp should be used to "hunt" bear...just that a hot loaded penetrating bullet would kill one. I know this from experience...not just guessing.

We are talking about the "Smokies" here, and most of the bears there are around 300 lbs. or so, I know full well there are bigger ones in there...but most of them are not that big.

I've done a little backpacking myself but its been a while back...my Dad still goes when he can. Together back in the 80's we hiked the Appalachian Trail a lot....we covered all of it from Springer Mtn. in Georgia up to Carlisle, PA.

But that's not where I shot the bear with the 45...that happened while deer hunting near Blairs Gap a few years back. (bowhunting...I'm not sure which of us was caught off guard more, and yes....it was self defense)

Again...a 45 is not the "optimum" bear gun...but it is more practical to carry hundreds of miles than a heavy 44. (Just my opinion...and proper loads are IMPORTANT).

Carry something you are used to...it just might happen fast...REAL FAST. (if it happens at all)

Edited February 14, 2009 by Ridgerunner665

[Guest SUNTZU]

I just think that the more people blast away at perceived threats from animals, be it bear, skunk, or snake, the quicker the law will be taken away by the left. Going backpacking is not the same as going hunting, obviously. Seeing a bear on the trails is not the same as seeing one in the Loop. You will generally hear the bear ahead of time, as they are either crashing through the brush since they heard or smelled you, or they are tearing into a stump looking for food. If they wander into your camp looking for food, then you left something out that you shouldn't have, or didn't clean your dishes and use the food pulleys. Don't keep a late night snack in your tent, as you will might wake up face to face with a raccoon or skunk, though this is rare as well. I would be more scared of running into a bear on the Loop, what with all the idiots chasing them with cameras and screaming. If your worried about bears, get a bear bell, though you probably won't see any wildlife and people will point and laugh at you unless you have kids. Nah, they won't point and laugh, not to your face. Most of the trails in Smokies are so well traveled that you might not see anything but some dear and wild turkey. I take my Bersa or my G19. I might take my G21 depending on how long and where I am going. I am thinking of getting a snubnose .22, something light and that will work around dirt and rain.

[Ridgerunner665]

I just think that the more people blast away at perceived threats from animals, be it bear, skunk, or snake, the quicker the law will be taken away by the left.

Agreed 100%...

Going backpacking is not the same as going hunting, obviously. Seeing a bear on the trails is not the same as seeing one in the Loop. You will generally hear the bear ahead of time, as they are either crashing through the brush since they heard or smelled you, or they are tearing into a stump looking for food.

Agreed again...but I did see several bears while backpacking. Got out of the tent one night to take a leak and one ran off...I guess he was looking for scraps (we were near, but not in, a shelter (Low Gap shelter in VA). They know where to find scraps...beware of the shelters.

[Wingshooter]

I like to carry my Ruger SBH 44 mag with the 4 5/8" bbl when I am in the woods. It's heavier than some other choices, but I hardly notice it with a good leather belt and holster. In the summer, I am most concerned about snakes, so I keep a few rounds of "snake shot" loaded. I am usually on private land, so I am always on the lookout for a hog to take down . From what I have read about bears, I am at disadvantage with a single action revolver, but I like carrying it.

As far as hiking in the Smokies, I would take my .40 HK USPc. As others have mentioned... more woried about crazy folks, and the weight and size is more conducive to hiking. If I were choosing between a .40 and a .45, I would take the .45 with good HC or JSP ammo.

I have read a lot of good things about bear pepper spray, and I am considering adding that to my outdoor gear this spring.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Batman

[Guest Traumaslave]

Back country carry for me is always my USPc .45 . I'm not worried about bears when I hike. I have always said the the AT is a great place to get lost when you don't want to be found. Those are the ones I worry about.

[Guest medic66]

im not much of a hiker. i let my mules do the work, so carrying things are not a concern. you are right that in the hills here you are usually close to other people and the trails are very well travelled. i was thinking of colorado where many trails are not well travelled and you have to worry about large black bears, wolves, moose, lions and absolutely no cell service. so it pays there to carry a large caliber weapon. different situations between there and here. that's why there are over 200 SAR groups there.

[RoDan]

"I, Hatchet Jack, being of sound mind and broke legs, do here by leavith my bear rifle to whatever finds it. Lord hope, it be a white man. It is a good rifle, and kilt the bear that kilt me. Anyway, I am dead. Yours truly, Hatchet Jack."

Edited February 14, 2009 by RoDan

[Ridgerunner665]

Jeremiah Johnson...darn good movie.

[Wingshooter]

I do intend to exercise our new right to carry in the Smokies when I go, but mostly only for the reason that a right that is not exercised tends to go away.

I am glad you brought that up because I lost track of this issue. Did it go into effect in Jan? There was some talk that Obama would reverse Bush's new administrative rule on allowing carry in National Parks... I can't find any updated info on it....

Not sure how I could have missed the outcome of this important new right:screwy: