Firearms detection for surveillance systems

[Capbyrd]

I've shared some of Destin's videos before and here is another one.   He has been working with another engineer on a system to detect firearms in video.  Watch the video and then lets discuss.   I think a lot of people are going to jump to conclusions before watching the video.  

 

 

 

I think this is a fantastic approach to responding to active shooters.   If implemented in schools and other places where mass shooters commonly attack, it could drastically reduce response time as well as allow more time for people to take defensive positions.   Imagine the cameras outside of a school identifying the shooter and sending the text before the shooter is even in the school.   Faculty can hit a panic button and have ever room locked down in no time.   I'm not saying that this is a perfect system, and from the video, so far it seems to only be smart with handguns, but its a start and I think that this is the kind of technology that pro-2A people can get behind.   

[peejman]

I think it's a good secondary measure. I say "secondary" because it's detection, not prevention.  The BG is already somewhere he shouldn't be.  

The idea of integrating the cameras for better situational awareness is a good one. Very complex to implement, but a good direction to work toward. 

I suspect it will have similar difficulties as many of the autonomous vehicle systems with differentiating objects in a dynamic environment.  It been well proven that these systems get confused and react incorrectly.  

[DaveTN]

Things will change rapidly as technology changes. I have said before and I will say it again, I believe the best technology available today at a reasonable cost is security cameras like NEST (etc.) being displayed on multiple TV’s though out the school. So that at any given time multiple Adults/Teachers can see them. Human beings are best at detecting threats. Especially when the human beings know or don’t recognize the subjects they are seeing. Offices have TV’s monitoring cameras, every classroom could have a large screen TV at the back of the classroom showing multiple cameras that a teacher could turn on or off. All the eyes you can get, on as many areas as you can get.

The software in that video might be okay to alert someone for sites that store uploaded videos for playback.

[E4 No More]

My first impression from the video was when they were trying to use it to be able to direct responding officers to the "active" shooter. While that might be great for a "gun free zone" it's inability to distinguish between a good guy with a gun from a bad guy with a gun is a literal fatal flaw.

[DaveTN]

11 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

My first impression from the video was when they were trying to use it to be able to direct responding officers to the "active" shooter. While that might be great for a "gun free zone" it's inability to distinguish between a good guy with a gun from a bad guy with a gun is a literal fatal flaw.

I don’t think it would need to. And I don’t see that as a “fatal flaw”. The responding Officers would be talking to each other, and like any other time they would need to positively identify their target. I would think the Officers knowing they are in a school full of kids would be extremely reluctant to use deadly force without absolute certainty. That should always be the case, but with a Dallas Officer on trial at this very hour; it isn’t always.

[E4 No More]

12 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t think it would need to. And I don’t see that as a “fatal flaw”. The responding Officers would be talking to each other, and like any other time they would need to positively identify their target. I would think the Officers knowing they are in a school full of kids would be extremely reluctant to use deadly force without absolute certainty. That should always be the case, but with a Dallas Officer on trial at this very hour; it isn’t always.

And therein lies the rub. Her situation was not the same type of threat and she still used bad judgement. Now imagine you are trying to find an active shooter and see a "good guy" holding a gun not knowing that he was a good guy. There are darn good chances he'll end up dead while the bad guy continues. Fog of war creates a lot of friendly fire incidents.

EDIT: I do agree that cameras are good and that humans are better at recognizing threats. Commanders directing LEOs based on visual confirmation is better.

Edited September 30, 2019 by E4 No More

[DaveTN]

25 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

And therein lies the rub. Her situation was not the same type of threat and she still used bad judgement. Now imagine you are trying to find an active shooter and see a "good guy" holding a gun not knowing that he was a good guy. There are darn good chances he'll end up dead while the bad guy continues. Fog of war creates a lot of friendly fire incidents.

EDIT: I do agree that cameras are good and that humans are better at recognizing threats. Commanders directing LEOs based on visual confirmation is better.

Yes, there is a very good possibility a good guy with a gun in his hand will be shot if he is not in contact with Officers and he is startled and reacts by not complying with verbal orders. That’s why anyone carrying a gun in school needs to be highly trained. Not necessarily on guns and shooting, but on the tactics and procedure that will kick in when shots fired at a school is reported.

Commanders aren’t on the scene and the shooting will be over by the time they are. Securing the area and entering as a team is not done on most departments anymore. The responding Officers enter and engage the shooter. That’s how it’s usually happened lately, with the exception of one incident where a Deputy failed to act.

Real time video in the school could be routed to anyone, and would be invaluable.

[Capbyrd]

This system doesn't remove the human element.  It identifies the people with guns and makes it easier for the humans to find them.  

This of how many cameras a large school or mall has.  Instead of having to sort through dozens of cameras, it helps to narrow down the relevant footage.  

[DaveTN]

20 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

This system doesn't remove the human element.  It identifies the people with guns and makes it easier for the humans to find them.  

This of how many cameras a large school or mall has.  Instead of having to sort through dozens of cameras, it helps to narrow down the relevant footage.  

And that’s good. Cruz in Parkland was seen on camera and recognized by a school security monitor who recognized Cruz as a threat and recognized what he was carrying as a rifle case. Unfortunately 911 was not called at that time. A procedure was not in place.

Video cameras allowed a school staff member to see what was going on the school should have had warning. But because of a monitor that failed to notify Police and a Deputy on the school grounds that failed to act; a bunch of kids died.

[E4 No More]

36 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Yes, there is a very good possibility a good guy with a gun in his hand will be shot if he is not in contact with Officers and he is startled and reacts by not complying with verbal orders. That’s why anyone carrying a gun in school needs to be highly trained. Not necessarily on guns and shooting, but on the tactics and procedure that will kick in when shots fired at a school is reported.

Commanders aren’t on the scene and the shooting will be over by the time they are. Securing the area and entering as a team is not done on most departments anymore. The responding Officers enter and engage the shooter. That’s how it’s usually happened lately, with the exception of one incident where a Deputy failed to act.

Real time video in the school could be routed to anyone, and would be invaluable.

This was what I meant by the commanders able to make the distinction. Video can and should be routed to the PD as long as there are proper controls in place. I'm not implying that police should have a continuous feed, or autonomous control over when they get the feeds. I think a tool such as this would help to sort the feeds to the commander so that they can observe without the risk of being shot so that they can direct the actions of the offices via radio.

You know as well as I that a person under "Fight or Flight" conditions can tone-out verbal commands because they are focused on the threat. I've seen that a few times in my life - the closest of which was my young brother-in-law not hearing commands to drop the gun that was in his hand when a ne'er-do-well tried to break into the house. Had I not known the responding officers and able to direct them to their real target my BIL might not be breathing today.

[Guest BCR#1]

Finger inside the trigger guard of a cocked pistol. I'll pass on that clowns video's.

Bill

[Chucktshoes]

38 minutes ago, BCR#1 said:

Finger inside the trigger guard of a cocked pistol. I'll pass on that clowns video's.

Bill

There is a purpose and reason for it relating to the software and the gun was shown and demonstrated to be empty and without a magazine. 

[Capbyrd]

13 hours ago, BCR#1 said:

Finger inside the trigger guard of a cocked pistol. I'll pass on that clowns video's.

Bill

 

12 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

There is a purpose and reason for it relating to the software and the gun was shown and demonstrated to be empty and without a magazine. 

Even taking it a step further, they go so far as to point out in the video that he is not muzzle sweeping the other guy because they are on different planes.   Like Chuck said, there is a reason for the finger placement.   

[DaveTN]

I have to laugh when YouTube folks waste time explaining the weapon is clear or viewers get excited about trigger or muzzle control. It’s an inanimate object in a video…you are safe.

Now when someone is making a video on quick drawing and they shoot themselves in the leg; that’s different; give them grief. But I must confess I laughed at that also.

When someone is doing an intelligent gun video; I give them the benefit of the doubt that the weapon is clear. So I don’t get excited when they muzzle sweep me through the camera or start playing with the trigger.

[Capbyrd]

18 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I have to laugh when YouTube folks waste time explaining the weapon is clear or viewers get excited about trigger or muzzle control. It’s an inanimate object in a video…you are safe.

Now when someone is making a video on quick drawing and they shoot themselves in the leg; that’s different; give them grief. But I must confess I laughed at that also.

When someone is doing an intelligent gun video; I give them the benefit of the doubt that the weapon is clear. So I don’t get excited when they muzzle sweep me through the camera or start playing with the trigger.

Some of those folks, like Destin in this video, are defending themselves from the thousands of keyboard commandos that are going to inevitably complain in the comments.