White House Floats Background Check Ideas

[Garufa]

A first taste of what is being thought by Trump regarding changes to background checks.

The actual document is in the article.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-possible-gun-background-check-proposal-capitol-hill

Edited September 18, 2019 by Garufa

[Erik88]

According to the article this came directly from the White House. Can't wait for the Trump apologists to blame this on anyone but Trump, just like the bump stock ban.

 

 

[RED333]

Background checks already have been required for all firearm transfers, but the one-pager called for implementing a new requirement for all advertised commercial sales, including at gun shows.

Commercial sales of a firearm are new to me, just what are they?

 

[deerslayer]

Commercial sales are apparently anything that is not a private sale.  An individual-to-individual sale at a gunshow would probably be illegal.  Yawn.  If this largely symbolic measure is all Trump will support, the "apologists" should be the ones on this forum who were calling Trump a gun grabber a few weeks ago.

Edited September 19, 2019 by deerslayer

[Moped]

I’m not seeing a lot of difference here, from the way it is now. This licensed Transfer Agent is something new, obviously. It remains to be seen if people will use them for a private sell or not.

[Chucktshoes]

The problem with laws passed like this is that terms like “commercial sale” are left up to the regulatory agency (BATFE) to define. Dollars to donuts, the sales listings of sites like Armslist, Gunbroker, and TGO get classified as a “commercial sale”. After all, there is a commercial transaction involved in the posting of the ads through per ad or membership fees.

[deerslayer]

30 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

The problem with laws passed like this is that terms like “commercial sale” are left up to the regulatory agency (BATFE) to define. Dollars to donuts, the sales listings of sites like Armslist, Gunbroker, and TGO get classified as a “commercial sale”. After all, there is a commercial transaction involved in the posting of the ads through per ad or membership fees.

True, but the fact that the term "commercial" was used leads me to believe that someone regards what we call private sales as something different.  I may be wrong.  

The licensed transfer agent is interesting.  Someone on here the other day pointed out that, if background checks are so important, why isn't NICS available to everyone?  The licensed transfer agent could be a step in that direction.

[Chucktshoes]

13 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

True, but the fact that the term "commercial" was used leads me to believe that someone regards what we call private sales as something different.  I may be wrong.  

The licensed transfer agent is interesting.  Someone on here the other day pointed out that, if background checks are so important, why isn't NICS available to everyone?  The licensed transfer agent could be a step in that direction.

In rereading the language used, “a background-check requirement would be extended to all advertised commercial sales, including sales at gun shows” I believe it absolutely would include all classified ads. I would posit that a private sale made between friends/family that did not involve a posted ad listing would be what is exempt. 

It would break down like this, list an ad on a website, publication, or go to a commercial gathering such as a gun show or swap meet, BG check needed. 

Your buddy Bob asks you how much you want for that revolver or you ask uncle Charlie how much he’s willing to give you for that Glock of yours he’s been drooling over, no BG check. 

That would place a BG check requirement on far and away the vast majority of private sales. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Chucktshoes

[TGO David]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

The problem with laws passed like this is that terms like “commercial sale” are left up to the regulatory agency (BATFE) to define. Dollars to donuts, the sales listings of sites like Armslist, Gunbroker, and TGO get classified as a “commercial sale”. After all, there is a commercial transaction involved in the posting of the ads through per ad or membership fees.

I very much disagree.  TGO isn't selling firearms.  All we are doing is connecting people with each other, and the transactions of personally owned items that occur between individuals aren't commercial sales.

If the government decides that an individual can no longer sell their privately owned firearm to a person other than a family member without it going through a background check, then the government has essentially made a step toward firearms becoming non-transferrable items which is a step toward banning them entirely.

You folks need to be thinking about that pretty hard and burning up your representatives' phone lines when the sun rises Thursday.

 

[TGO David]

This is a worthwhile read on the subject.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/firearms-policy-coalition-rejects-trumps-expanded-background-check-registry-idea-document

 

[TGO David]

Direct link to the Firearms Policy Coalition's brief on this matter... VERY much worth reading.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/firearmspolicycoalition/pages/5388/attachments/original/1568847447/2019-9-18-fpc-policy-memo-fed-idea-doc.pdf?1568847447

 

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, TGO David said:

I very much disagree.  TGO isn't selling firearms.  All we are doing is connecting people with each other, and the transactions of personally owned items that occur between individuals aren't commercial sales.

If the government decides that an individual can no longer sell their privately owned firearm to a person other than a family member without it going through a background check, then the government has essentially made a step toward firearms becoming non-transferrable items which is a step toward banning them entirely.

You folks need to be thinking about that pretty hard and burning up your representatives' phone lines when the sun rises Thursday.

 

TGO isn’t selling firearms, and neither are the promoters of a gun show or most of the sales generated through the big online ad sites. I agree with everything you wrote, but I still believe that the wording of that idea document sets the stage for the legislation to 100% include online advertising/for sale ads. I mean, after all, “All we are doing is connecting people with each other, and the transactions of personally owned items that occur between individuals aren't commercial sales.” describes private party sales at gun shows as well.

We all know that “gun show loophole” means all private party sales to the folks who say it. Also, anyone who has been to a gun show in the last decade knows they’re not well attended anymore. Most private party sales are arranged through the internet, so there is no doubt in my mind that this legislation will be aimed directly at us and anywhere else that provides a space for advertisements of firearm sales. 

So I second what you said about burning up the representative’s lines. They need to know that they’re being watched and will suffer if they attempt a fast one.

 

*edited to add*

I’m probably coming off as a little bit paranoid here, of course that’s usually warranted when dealing with the government, but I just can’t see any way to criminalize a private party transfer arranged at a gun show without criminalizing a private party transfer arranged through the net. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Chucktshoes

[Erik88]

I don't think you sound paranoid at all Elliot. Your analogy was spot on. David is right that TGO doesn't sell guns but TGO does promote/facilitate it in a way. Just like RK does for gunshows. The proposed law could easily be interpreted to include places like TGO. 

Furthermore, even if initially allowed, this could always be "tweaked" with the stroke of a pen to ban entities like TGO from allowing sales. We saw just how easily bump stocks went from legal to not. It wasn't even voted on, just decided.

[RED333]

I see the slope a bit steeper and more slick.

We have to fight for the 2nd, the commies want us disarmed, weather you think so or not.

[Guest BCR#1]

8 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

 Dollars to donuts, the sales listings of sites like Armslist, Gunbroker, and TGO get classified as a “commercial sale”. After all, there is a commercial transaction involved in the posting of the ads through per ad or membership fees.

I've never paid a fee to list anything on Armslist or gun owners club.

Bill

[DaveTN]

A Commercial seller who is not a licensed dealer or transfer agent.

We need a definition of that. I assume that to be any private seller that isn’t an FFL dealer. (Any of us that sell a gun)

The obvious intent of the “Ideas” is to require background checks on all private sales. Anything less than that won’t pass the house.

Like the FPC I don’t see why new forms or new “Transfer Agents” would be needed to do that. Unless they plan on leaving FFL’s out and having “Free” transfer done by “Transfer Agents”.

If their intent is to make TGO, Armslist, GOC, or anyone that lists a gun for sale a “Commercial seller”; that would make their requirements the same as an FFL, and they would be pretty easy to get rid of. Not to mention the possibility of civil liability.

 

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

As I said before the ONLY way this whole "background checks for all " idea works is with a national registry of who has what. Good luck with that......

[DaveTN]

30 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

As I said before the ONLY way this whole "background checks for all " idea works is with a national registry of who has what. Good luck with that......

Maybe I missed what you said before, fill us in. What’s one got to do with the other? We have HCP’s with background checks. The state doesn’t ask or know what we have.

[btq96r]

10 hours ago, TGO David said:

I very much disagree.  TGO isn't selling firearms.  All we are doing is connecting people with each other, and the transactions of personally owned items that occur between individuals aren't commercial sales.

If the government decides that an individual can no longer sell their privately owned firearm to a person other than a family member without it going through a background check, then the government has essentially made a step toward firearms becoming non-transferrable items which is a step toward banning them entirely.

You folks need to be thinking about that pretty hard and burning up your representatives' phone lines when the sun rises Thursday.

 

You're correct in saying that TGO as an entity isn't the one selling firearms, but the transactions brokered through the Trading Post can clearly be counted under even a loose interpretation of "advertised commercial sales".

As to the second part, the background check process is somewhere between an annoyance and an impediment, but I doubt courts would see it as an infringement on rights since background checks on retail sales of firearms are widespread and accepted under law and due process, while murky at times is present.

[KahrMan]

16 minutes ago, btq96r said:

You're correct in saying that TGO as an entity isn't the one selling firearms, but the transactions brokered through the Trading Post can clearly be counted under even a loose interpretation of "advertised commercial sales".

 

I disagree.  Term commercial sales implies sales from a business, not personal items.  If you sell your personal car on craigslist you are not involved in commercial car sales.  

[DaveTN]

6 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

I disagree.  Term commercial sales implies sales from a business, not personal items.  If you sell your personal car on craigslist you are not involved in commercial car sales.  

That’s why I posted that we need to know what that means. They are simply spit balling and we are just making wild azz guesses. Like any legal document or term; it will mean what they say it means.

[Hozzie]

4 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

I disagree.  Term commercial sales implies sales from a business, not personal items.  If you sell your personal car on craigslist you are not involved in commercial car sales.  

Not exactly.  The definition of Commerce according to Miriam Webster is 

"the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale involving transportation from place to place"

The big question would be the interpretation of the phrase "on a large scale".  Firearms are commodities and we do transport from place to place, so on a large scale is the critical piece.  This of course is only if they don't create their own definition, but I suspect they would consider places like TGO to qualify as "on a large scale" simply because it is a firearms focused website.

Universal Background Checks are coming, it's not if, it's when.  A registry is my concern.  I still say the answer is a voluntary, free background check system for everyone.  That along with a free "stolen firearm search" would most likely be the best overall result for realistic results.  People who don't care now won't care then and those who do will take the time to do a quick check if it is easy and free.  The problem is no one believes they won't track it.

[Erik88]

20 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

I disagree.  Term commercial sales implies sales from a business, not personal items.  If you sell your personal car on craigslist you are not involved in commercial car sales.  

It doesn't matter how we interpret commercial sales. Ultimately, it only matters what the federal government thinks. So while I tend to agree with your example, it's not up to us. That's the scary part of this proposal.  

[DaveTN]

Here is an example from a bill that was VETOED in New Hampshire. I have linked the full info but just posted what I thought was the pertinent part. Had this bill passed in our state, it would have made a sale on this forum between private parties, a Commercial sale. And that is what they attempted to do in NH.

Quote

 

This bill requires commercial firearms sales or transfers in this state to be subject to a criminal background check and provides a criminal penalty for a violation.  The bill excludes private, noncommercial sales or transfers between individuals, provided neither individual is prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under state or federal law.

I.  “Commercial sale” means a sale, transfer, or exchange of a firearm that takes place at, or on the curtilage of, a firearm or "gun" show or pursuant to an offer to sell, buy, transfer, or exchange a firearm that took place at a gun show, or pursuant to an advertisement, posting, listing, or display.

https://legiscan.com/NH/text/HB109/id/1833352

 

 

 

[bersaguy]

Well I have read about all of the posts here and no doubt the subject is a hot one. I read Garufa's post and also the link. I do admit it does make a little cause for alarm but then at the end of the Link  was where it said that C Schumer and Nancy Pelosi both told Trump that it would be unacceptable for Trump to not pass the bill according to how it was written by the House!!! That would be giving Trump an "ultimatum of our way is the only way" and I'm not sure he accepts them to well, Especially from a couple people he really seems to not like to begin with. I'm not seeing Mitch McConnell moving to fast to jump on the Schumer/Pelosi band wagon either.

Also right now Trumps numbers are down by about 9% and I don't think he wants to go against 85% of his base right now and have his ratings  take a big hit. I think if Trump signs anything it will be what he wants and not what he is told by the enemy to sign...............JMHO