White Outline Sights for M&P Handguns

[DaveTN]

We were discussing this on another site and I wanted to bring it up here (again) so maybe…LPA or one of our American manufacturers gets the idea.

I want these sights. But they don’t make them for the M&P’s….yet. They are made by LPA, an Italian Company, and sold by various companies here. Maybe one of our American companies will step up.

I don’t know why anyone that is target shooting with open sights would want dots over these. But so be it… I just want a choice, everyone doesn’t need to use the same thing.

I didn’t have to put a new trigger on the latest M&P carry gun I bought, so I can spend some money putting a good set of sights on it, for when I want to use it for target shooting.

I understand why you may want dots on a carry gun (maybe, kinda, okay not at all, but that’s neither here nor there); but we aren’t talking carry guns....necessarily.

White outlined sights with a red ramp that S&W used for decades would be great. We were told dots are better than these. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

https://www.lpasights.com/en/

https://www.fusionfirearms.com/colt-series-80-1241

 

[Chucktshoes]

Those look fiddly and obnoxious. I’ll stick to my front dot with a blacked out rear. 

[DaveTN]

17 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Those look fiddly and obnoxious. I’ll stick to my front dot with a blacked out rear. 

Kids. 

[TomInMN]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

White outlined sights with a red ramp that S&W used for decades would be great. We were told dots are better than these. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

What was their (The They that said "Go to dots!") rationale? What's the argument for going back to not dots?

I don't know much about the various schools of thought backing the different systems. Thought this was a good opportunity to ask.

[DaveTN]

22 minutes ago, TomInMN said:

What was their (The They that said "Go to dots!") rationale? What's the argument for going back to not dots?

I don't know much about the various schools of thought backing the different systems. Thought this was a good opportunity to ask.

They are cheap to produce, (same reason you have Glock's and M&P’s instead of steel guns) beyond that the article I linked below explains a lot.

My desires are different than many others. I do not need sights of any kind on a self defense handgun. I train with point instinct for defensive shooting. I use sights for target shooting. I don’t think there are many people that could with a straight face claim dot sights are more accurate than a white outlined slot with a post. But they also need to be adjustable; and that adds cost.

I also am not asking for anyone to have to pick one over the other. Adjustable sights cost more. That’s why you only see them on higher end guns. M&P’s, Glocks, and other Tupperware guns are as low as you can go on the quality chain and still have something you can trust. They are below $500. Cost is critical.

I’m willing to pay $100 for a set of sights like shown in the pic above. I could be the only one and that may be why we don’t have them. But I’m willing to bet someone offers them and they are a hot item. I believe that because I have used them.

https://www.studentofthegun.com/articles/flash-report/3-dot-sights-suck-everyone-wants/

[Flash Report] 3 Dot Sights Suck, and Everyone Wants Them.

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Kids. 

I bet he wears his ball cap backwards too. 

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, TomInMN said:

What was their (The They that said "Go to dots!") rationale? What's the argument for going back to not dots?

I don't know much about the various schools of thought backing the different systems. Thought this was a good opportunity to ask.

Supposedly, it's quicker for the eye to line up three dots in a row than to center a post in a notch.

[Chucktshoes]

42 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

I bet he wears his ball cap backwards too. 

No. Just no.

I know we’ve argued a few times here, but that’s a low blow, man.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Chucktshoes

[DaveTN]

I emailed LPA a couple of times and they finally answered me. They told me “No” and to either just keep using the totally worthless POS 3 dots sights that come on those (and most other) pistols, or buy a POS Glock and buy their sights to put on it.

 

Well okay, that’s not exactly what they said…here is what they said.

Quote

 

Dear Mr. Dave,

Thank you for your email.
At this time we don’t have any plan to make a white outline sight set.
Sorry for this.

Best Regards,

L.P.A. Sights 

 

I should have known better than to expect those freakin’ Italians to help us out. They were probably too busy making pasta. I obviously will need to find an American Made product to deal with this problem. 

[deerslayer]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:02 AM, DaveTN said:

I don’t know why anyone that is target shooting with open sights would want dots over these. But so be it… I just want a choice, everyone doesn’t need to use the same thing.

Anyone doing true target shooting needs neither dots nor outlines; they are better off with plain black front and rear sights.  White dots, squares, etc on the front sight are not the proper aiming point; they merely speed up sight acquisition.  

[DaveTN]

20 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

Anyone doing true target shooting needs neither dots nor outlines; they are better off with plain black front and rear sights.  White dots, squares, etc on the front sight are not the proper aiming point; they merely speed up sight acquisition.  

That may be true for you; it's not true for me. 

[deerslayer]

23 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

That may be true for you; it's not true for me. 

Why not?  The shooter should focus on the top edge and sharp corners of the front sight when precision is required.  Dots are there to more quickly draw the shooter’s attention to that front sight.  Rear dots, outlines, etc are just a distraction.  A solid orange front sight may benefit some if it is more visible and thus easier to focus on, but that is a completely different concept from white or fiber optic dots.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by deerslayer

[DaveTN]

17 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

Why not?  The shooter should focus on the top edge and sharp corners of the front sight when precision is required.  Dots are there to more quickly draw the shooter’s attention to that front sight.  Rear dots, outlines, etc are just a distraction.  A solid orange front sight may benefit some if it is more visible and thus easier to focus on, but that is a completely different concept from white or fiber optic dots.  

I don’t use sights for defensive shooting at all. Sights for me are for target shooting only. I’m 65 years old and shot in competition for years. I can shoot white outlined sights far better than dots, and even better than plain black sights.

I’m not asking you to change how you shoot, or what sights you use. I’m not asking Smith & Wesson or Glock to change their sights. They can continue to use whatever they have convinced you is the best. I’m willing to pay the price for LPA sights for my M&P’s.

Other than the Italians not wanting to help a brother out; there’s no reason for me not to have them.

[deerslayer]

Ha!  Neither Glock nor S&W offers what I am convinced is the best.  I am quite fond of plastic Glock sights, however, because they are so easy to remove

Good luck in your search for white outline rears.  I have a feeling you will need it.

I hope I’m never nearby when you start point shooting In a defensive scenario.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by deerslayer

[DWARREN123]

Different folks have different wants.

I like a white dot front and two dot rear or black rear.

[One1]

They look like adjustable glock sites. I’m not fond of either system. Glock sites are no good for me and dots aren’t quick or easy either.  The best sites I’ve ever used are XS Sights large ball. I’m convinced Stevie Wonder could hit coke cans at 15 yards with them with no aim prep. 

[DaveTN]

22 hours ago, deerslayer said:

I hope I’m never nearby when you start point shooting In a defensive scenario.  

As long as you are not the bad guy; you would be fine.

22 hours ago, deerslayer said:

I am convinced  

 

19 minutes ago, One1 said:

I’m convinced 

You guys don't understand. Everything can't be about you; this is about Dave. I will leave you out of my group buy. 

Just remember when everyone is pointing at you and laughing at the range, for being the only ones using those ridiculous dot sights; you were convinced they are the best.

Kids...

[E4 No More]

A bit off topic, but some of the best shots that I have ever made was from my getting out of my head, looking at what I wanted to hit, pointing the gun (or arrow) at what I wanted to shoot, and pulling the trigger. The theory put forth is that you naturally point at what you look at - although me hitting a rabbit in the heart while on the run at 40 yards with an field arrow could arguably be luck. I'm not referring to cowboy shoot-out style here. Many times during a gunfight either the gun, or the gun hand/arm, is shot because the opposition is focusing their eyes on the weapon pointed back at him/her. The problem with me is that "Sight alignment; sight picture" was ingrained into me for most of my life. Once I get my bullet stop finished out back I plan to develop point-shooting further. It's much faster, and I need that as I get older.   

Edited February 4, 2020 by E4 No More
Grammar

[Chucktshoes]

While I’m not a practitioner of point shooting, I don’t dismiss it either. The hands follow the eyes. That can’t be denied. It’s part of the training I give to new truck drivers. End it something intuitively understood by anybody who’s ever tried to catch a ball.

[DaveTN]

26 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

A bit off topic, but some of the best shots that I have ever made was from my getting out of my head, looking at what I wanted to hit, pointing the gun (or arrow) at what I wanted to shoot, and pulling the trigger. The theory put forth is that you naturally point at what you look at - although me hitting a rabbit in the heart while on the run at 40 yards with an field arrow could arguably be luck. I'm not referring to cowboy shoot-out style here. Many times during a gunfight either the gun, or the gun hand/arm, is shot because the opposition is focusing their eyes on the weapon pointed back at him/her. The problem with me is that it was "Sight alignment; sight picture" was ingrained in me for most of my life. Once I get my bullet stop finished out back I plan to develop point-shooting further. It's much faster, and I need that as I get older.   

Point instinct shooting was how I was trained. That was many years ago and they have since made up many different names for that. Had I not been trained that way; I would be dead.

However, I have no problem transitioning back and forth between that and using sights for target shooting.

But everyone needs to train, and use, whatever they think will keep them alive.

[E4 No More]

12 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Point instinct shooting was how I was trained. That was many years ago and they have since made up many different names for that. Had I not been trained that way; I would be dead.

However, I have no problem transitioning back and forth between that and using sights for target shooting.

But everyone needs to train, and use, whatever they think will keep them alive.

I was taught how to shoot with a BB Gun in junior high school gym class in the early 70's. In 1982 to 1986, the Marine Corps was all about old school marksmanship. The Missouri State Highway Patrol Academy in 1988 was also old school marksmanship. All of them taught sight alignment; sight picture - along with breath control, trigger squeeze, etc. 

As a young'un the sights were lost on my BB gun, so I learned to look down the barrel focusing on my target to shoot up various plastic army men, models that I had built, or various other crap in the yard. It was as a teenager when I shot the rabbit that bolted across my path and making my friend's jaw hit the ground in shock. It was on the handgun range that I'd been known just to point, shoot, and hit what I was looking at.

After quitting the police department 1993 and going to school, I got out of shooting anything, (not even owning a gun), for over 15 years. It's been around the past 14 years that I've owned guns but not shot very much because of other distractions and living in LaVergne. Now that I live on acreage in Lascassas I've been wanting to shoot more which is why I'm building my bullet stop. I still have a lot of distractions, but once I get the dirt piled up against the railroad ties this spring I hope to shoot a lot more. I wish I had a day's access to a good sized backhoe to pile the dirt 8.5' high. It would be a lot easier on an old man.

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, DaveTN said:

As long as you are not the bad guy; you would be fine.

 

You guys don't understand. Everything can't be about you; this is about Dave. I will leave you out of my group buy. 

Just remember when everyone is pointing at you and laughing at the range, for being the only ones using those ridiculous dot sights; you were convinced they are the best.

Kids...

If you brought your sights-free gun, your point shooting prowess, and your paycheck and we set up targets at 5, 10, and 25 yards, I bet I know who would not be laughing. 

[DaveTN]

3 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

If you brought your sights-free gun, your point shooting prowess, and your paycheck and we set up targets at 5, 10, and 25 yards, I bet I know who would not be laughing. 

At 25 yards I would have to use sights. If they were white outlined sights, I would be laughing, and you would just be standing there hanging your head with your feelings hurt.

[deerslayer]

5 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

At 25 yards I would have to use sights. If they were white outlined sights, I would be laughing, and you would just be standing there hanging your head with your feelings hurt.

Well since you are the only person in America who actually wants white outline sights and demand still dictates supply, I guess we’ll never find out.  

[Chucktshoes]

@DaveTNsince LPA does make adjustable target site for the M&P in a three dot configuration, why don’t you just buy a set of those and have them modified? Making your own seems like a much more productive course of action than grousing about how somebody doesn’t make what you want.

 

 

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Chucktshoes