Clarification on laws about carrying with no permit

[dawgdoc]

First, I am going to apologize that I have not been able to find the information that I need, but I have tried.  Specifically, I am trying to clarify when and where a person can carry a gun in Tennessee without any permit.  This does not apply to me.  My office recently had someone steal the camera watching the back area, and the employees (most of who are women) are disturbed.  The person knew how to stay out of view, and used a rabies catch pole (not from our hospital) to snare the camera.  Veterinary hospitals have three things that criminals of various flavors want--money, drugs, and women.  This particular area that the camera covered is where the staff would walk dogs, and on the weekends, they would be alone.

The hospital is in a leasehold in a shopping center.  The parking lot is shared by various businesses.  Parking spots that they may use range from right outside the door to the other end of the shopping center.  There are no current prohibitions against gun inside the business.

According to 39-17-1308, they would not need a permit to have a gun in the car.  They may also carry at their "place of business" and "premises" besides their residences.  I thought I had read a thread on this site addressing this issue, but I could not find it.  It is my understanding that "place of business" means where a person works (as opposed to owning the business).  The problem is the parking lot.  It is definitely not owned by the business (the veterinary hospital), but I think a reasonable person might consider it part of the business.  Those without permits (which is most of them) who wish to carry a gun inside would have to cross the parking lot.  I'm not sure how a LEO would see it, and I think the further away the parking is from the building, the less it seems like it is part of one entity known as "the place of business."  Does anyone want to share an opinion?

The easiest solution would be to get permits (or licenses in the case of the Georgia residents), but I know money is an extreme restriction for many of them.  One lady, for example, only has a pistol because her father left her the gun when he died.

Also, can anyone refresh me on if there are any knife restrictions in Tennessee?  Thanks.

 

[peejman]

I wasn't aware one could carry a handgun on their person anywhere other than their own property. You can have a gun in your car, but not in a holster on your hip.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf

If you have concern for the safety of your employees, contact the property management. If they don't offer anything, call the local PD and ask for an officer to escort them.  Have the employees walk the dogs somewhere else. 

There are no knife restrictions in TN. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by peejman

[dawgdoc]

The dogs are walked in an area enclosed by a tall chainlink fence; the camera monitored the area.  The fence is locked, but obviously that will not stop certain types of problems.  It is the only area to walk dogs, other than outside the fence.

The local PD does drive around the back of the building (where the dog walk area is), but I know they won't be patrolling it constantly.

[chances R]

If one is out in a public area, a HCP is required.  If on private property, then home rules for the most part.  One can have a handgun in their car, on or off person, no different than in your home.  I would prefer that they carry a quality pepper spray such as Sabre Red.  Cheap and effective and works at reasonable distance.  

[DaveTN]

If they have guns; they need to get permits. The new camera you get needs an enclosure. I assume you have an alarm, get them a remote to carry that will trigger the alarm. Everything else is just “Better than nothing”. Mace, Pepper Spray and knives are in that category.

When the new permit is available it will cost less, but concealed is required. And they will have no training.

If someone pulled my security camera down, I would have got a notification on my phone. That might be something you might want to consider.

[owejia]

If they are valued employees, have you considered helping them get their permit/licenses? Would not this  be a benefit to both parties and your business? 

[dawgdoc]

If I were the owner of the business, I would make getting a permit or license a company benefit, but I am not the owner.  Several are Georgia residents, and I have repeatedly pointed out how to get a Georgia Weapons Carry License, but very few have taken those steps.  

As for phone notification, the owner carries a flip phone, and (like me) keeps it off when he is at  home.

Back to the original question, has anyone dealt with "place of business" carry?  It is obviously codified in the TN law, but are LEOs well versed in that particular exception to the general prohibition against carrying?

[chances R]

Owners discretion and liability 

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, dawgdoc said:

If I were the owner of the business, I would make getting a permit or license a company benefit, but I am not the owner.  Several are Georgia residents, and I have repeatedly pointed out how to get a Georgia Weapons Carry License, but very few have taken those steps.  

As for phone notification, the owner carries a flip phone, and (like me) keeps it off when he is at  home.

Back to the original question, has anyone dealt with "place of business" carry?  It is obviously codified in the TN law, but are LEOs well versed in that particular exception to the general prohibition against carrying?

Are you asking if the cops will know the law on carrying a gun? My experience is; absolutely. But my experience is not in this state; many of this forum have said they don’t think TN cops are very well trained in the law. That hasn’t appeared to be the case in the over 25 years I have been here; but I’m sure someone looking for a case of that happening could either find one or make one up. 

My experience as a former Police Officer tells me that how any gun law would be enforced would be a question of not only the law, but how and why the gun became an issue. The Officer has discretion.

It sounds to me like the owner of your business has a potentially bigger problem than what the cops will do.

[TomInMN]

1 hour ago, dawgdoc said:

If I were the owner of the business, I would make getting a permit or license a company benefit, but I am not the owner.  Several are Georgia residents, and I have repeatedly pointed out how to get a Georgia Weapons Carry License, but very few have taken those steps.  

As for phone notification, the owner carries a flip phone, and (like me) keeps it off when he is at  home.

Back to the original question, has anyone dealt with "place of business" carry?  It is obviously codified in the TN law, but are LEOs well versed in that particular exception to the general prohibition against carrying?

Calling the local PD or sheriff might help shed some light, as might a call to your local prosecutor.

Explain the situation, ask about available (and legal) options.

[chances R]

1 hour ago, dawgdoc said:

...Back to the original question, has anyone dealt with "place of business" carry?  It is obviously codified in the TN law, but are LEOs well versed in that particular exception to the general prohibition against carrying?

I am not sure what you are referring to here.  Private business may have employee carry; no law against that.  Reciprocity with GA would be in play.  My concern would be training and proficiency.  If the owner is going down this road, would highly recommend getting with Cruel Hand Luke for instruction, advice, etc.

[dawgdoc]

Thanks for all the responses; I anticipated what the general opinion would be (because I agree that getting a permit/license would be easiest).  I have actually considered broaching the idea of paying for permits and license as a an employee benefit,  I'm not quite sure how that would go over both from a financial point and from a social point.  With the new concealed only, non-enhanced TN permit next year, there will be closer parity between the minimum that Georgia residents pay compared to TN residents.

As for how LEO might respond to private property carry, please consider this hypothetical scenario:  Suppose Best Buy has no policy prohibiting employees from carrying at work, but those same employees are required to park at the far end of the parking lot.  Assume most Best Buy stores are leaseholds, and they share common parking in a shopping center with many other stores.  In other words, there is no designated "Best Buy" parking.  An employee without a permit legally keeps a gun in her glove box.  When she gets to work, she transfers the gun to her purse, walks the length of the parking lot, and then enters the store.  We agree that she is legal in her car and in the store; is she legal in the parking lot?  Any former LEO have to answer a "man with a gun" call in such a situation?  I could foresee the rare case where another person sees the transfer of the gun from glove box to purse and might be concerned.  Once again this situation would be moot with a permit, but that is not happening for some in the near future.

Also, it is usually pretty clear who works at Best Buy based on the uniform.  On weekends, when our hospital is closed, the assistants are wearing normal clothes when they come to the hospital for after hour shifts.  Other than seeing that they possess a key or calling someone else who works there, I'm not sure how a LEO could positively identify one of our employees as legit on the weekend.  In the past, when an employee had interactions with the local PD after hours, as far as I know there was not problems (i.e., thinking the employee was a burglar or such).

[DaveTN]

18 hours ago, dawgdoc said:

Thanks for all the responses; I anticipated what the general opinion would be (because I agree that getting a permit/license would be easiest).  I have actually considered broaching the idea of paying for permits and license as a an employee benefit,  I'm not quite sure how that would go over both from a financial point and from a social point.  With the new concealed only, non-enhanced TN permit next year, there will be closer parity between the minimum that Georgia residents pay compared to TN residents.

As for how LEO might respond to private property carry, please consider this hypothetical scenario:  Suppose Best Buy has no policy prohibiting employees from carrying at work, but those same employees are required to park at the far end of the parking lot.  Assume most Best Buy stores are leaseholds, and they share common parking in a shopping center with many other stores.  In other words, there is no designated "Best Buy" parking.  An employee without a permit legally keeps a gun in her glove box.  When she gets to work, she transfers the gun to her purse, walks the length of the parking lot, and then enters the store.  We agree that she is legal in her car and in the store; is she legal in the parking lot?  Any former LEO have to answer a "man with a gun" call in such a situation?  I could foresee the rare case where another person sees the transfer of the gun from glove box to purse and might be concerned.  Once again this situation would be moot with a permit, but that is not happening for some in the near future.

Also, it is usually pretty clear who works at Best Buy based on the uniform.  On weekends, when our hospital is closed, the assistants are wearing normal clothes when they come to the hospital for after hour shifts.  Other than seeing that they possess a key or calling someone else who works there, I'm not sure how a LEO could positively identify one of our employees as legit on the weekend.  In the past, when an employee had interactions with the local PD after hours, as far as I know there was not problems (i.e., thinking the employee was a burglar or such).

Well, we know they can legally have the gun in the car, and we know they can legally have the gun in the business (I’d want written permission). The question is, the parking lot from the car to the business and taking the dogs out the back.

If the DA in that county allows citizens to walk in and ask legal questions, I would do that; as they would be deciding if charges are filed. I would also go to whatever PD would be responding to a call there and ask to speak to a Command Officer. (I would have both those conversations in person and not on the phone) Have this discussion with them and see what they say. You may find out the parking lot is considered part of the business and they are okay. Or, even if its not some Officers many let it go; but you have no way of knowing how an individual Officer will use his discretion, not even the Command Officers would know that.

I would suspect this will keep coming full circle to them needing a permit. Since you say that isn’t a possibility; then they have to decide if they want to risk what the bad guys will do or what the good guys will do.

[bersaguy]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Well, we know they can legally have the gun in the car, and we know they can legally have the gun in the business (I’d want written permission). The question is, the parking lot from the car to the business and taking the dogs out the back.

If the DA in that county allows citizens to walk in and ask legal questions, I would do that; as they would be deciding if charges are filed. I would also go to whatever PD would be responding to a call there and ask to speak to a Command Officer. (I would have both those conversations in person and not on the phone) Have this discussion with them and see what they say. You may find out the parking lot is considered part of the business and they are okay. Or, even if its not some Officers many let it go; but you have no way of knowing how an individual Officer will use his discretion, not even the Command Officers would know that.

I would suspect this will keep coming full circle to them needing a permit. Since you say that isn’t a possibility; then they have to decide if they want to risk what the bad guys will do or what the good guys will do.

I don't have a dog in this race for sure but it seems to mostly revolve around the parking lot mostly. I would first look at the area in which your business is located. Is it a normally pretty safe place/neigborhood and does it have regular patrols by local LEO's? If it is not a really safe neighorhood and could be iffy I would leave the decision up to the employee whether they want to carry  a weapon from their vehicle to the work place. I have always felt it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 and if the neighborhood does require one to carry a weapon in the parking lot that would be their decision. As most have pointed out the best option would be for them to attend a class and get a permit and that would eliminate all the What If's?.............JMHO 

[DWARREN123]

Call the local county/city attorney, the one who would prosecute a case like this and get a printed answer on their office paper to post in the employee area. 

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, DWARREN123 said:

Call the local county/city attorney, the one who would prosecute a case like this and get a printed answer on their office paper to post in the employee area. 

I agree. Personally, if the business is in leased space on private property I, (if I were still a cop and it was clear that the motive was self-defense rather than criminal intent), would consider the parking lot as part of the business. Unfortunately, not all cops would think the same, and the prosecutor makes the final decision.

[monkeylizard]

IANAL, but I suspect that if the lease includes any mention of the parking lot (like access to it, maintenance duties of the land owner, or how many spaces can be used by employees or customers) then it could be argued that the parking lot is included in the lease and therefore is part of the business premises. That's a big "maybe" though. But the problem isn't just the parking lot. Even if they can legally move their loaded firearms from their vehicles to the building, you said the staff walks dogs out back behind the facility. If the lease doesn't include usage of that area then the "place of business" exemption probably wouldn't apply, especially if the DA was a jerk scoring political points.

[GlockSpock]

On 8/22/2019 at 1:39 PM, DaveTN said:

Are you asking if the cops will know the law on carrying a gun? My experience is; absolutely. But my experience is not in this state; many of this forum have said they don’t think TN cops are very well trained in the law. That hasn’t appeared to be the case in the over 25 years I have been here; but I’m sure someone looking for a case of that happening could either find one or make one up. 

My experience as a former Police Officer tells me that how any gun law would be enforced would be a question of not only the law, but how and why the gun became an issue. The Officer has discretion.

It sounds to me like the owner of your business has a potentially bigger problem than what the cops will do.

A very good friend of mine, and a LEO, argued with me substantially one day because he told me that me carrying (with a permit) a pistol with a round chambered was illegal.

I tried to educate him; I'm not sure whether it stuck.

[DaveTN]

29 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

A very good friend of mine, and a LEO, argued with me substantially one day because he told me that me carrying (with a permit) a pistol with a round chambered was illegal.

I tried to educate him; I'm not sure whether it stuck.

I don’t know what to say; other than your friend needs to study more. I would have simply asked him what statute covered that. What you are saying you friend said is just glaring ignorance. He may well be the only cop in the state than thinks that; so, he really isn’t a good example.

Look…When we trained rookie cops, we let them handle calls so they would learn. When they said or did things that were wrong or stupid; we corrected them. Sometimes in front of the person they were talking to, or sometimes later if it was unimportant at the time. If I was present when your friend told a permit holder that non-sense; I would have made it clear to the permit holder that wasn’t the case.

It’s exactly like anti-gun folks when a permit holder does something wrong. Let them get just a whiff of that and they will beat that horse to death…forever.

[GlockSpock]

17 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t know what to say; other than your friend needs to study more. I would have simply asked him what statute covered that. What you are saying you friend said is just glaring ignorance. He may well be the only cop in the state than thinks that; so, he really isn’t a good example.

Look…When we trained rookie cops, we let them handle calls so they would learn. When they said or did things that were wrong or stupid; we corrected them. Sometimes in front of the person they were talking to, or sometimes later if it was unimportant at the time. If I was present when your friend told a permit holder that non-sense; I would have made it clear to the permit holder that wasn’t the case.

It’s exactly like anti-gun folks when a permit holder does something wrong. Let them get just a whiff of that and they will beat that horse to death…forever.

I'd feel comfortable betting a year's salary that he isn't the entire cop in the entire state that thought that.