Businesses asking for carry permit credentials

[Whisper]

3 hours ago, One1 said:

The business should be reprimanded for trying to be the police. They have no right to ask for your permit. Either they allow guns or they do not allow guns. The end. Conditional admittance based on information they cannot legally ask for (otherwise you'd be required to show) in an attempt to be the police and invade your privacy sounds like a rights violation.  Either allow guns or don’t allow guns.  

They have the right to ask for what they want inside their business.  Kind of like "No shoes, no shirt, no service."  You also have the right to shop wherever you want and to deny your patronage to businesses that treat customers without respect.  I enjoy that right and exercise it often.

Cheers,

Whisper

[BHunted]

I don't consider it a right thing. They are not police and have no right to access that type of info imho.
But it should be posted as a rule on the door and you should make the decision before entering. No more than they have the right to ask you for your social security card or anything else that is personal and kept safe. Hence, if you don't approve, just leave.

[btq96r]

One of the biggest fallacies of the gun owning community is forgetting that we've (well, some of us, many here on TGO) taken the time to learn these laws.  We should think on this one as if the person asking the question didn't know squat about handgun carry laws, because most people don't.

[Defender]

While I dont agree with our law that a business can ban firearms carry, I am otherwise a believer in property owners rights.  But given our law DOES give property owners that right, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason.  Certainly they have the right to ask to see your permit, also, of course you dont have to show it, and then, of course, they have the right to ask you to leave, and if you dont, you're trespassing.

[E4 No More]

On 1/29/2020 at 3:10 PM, DaveTN said:

2. People judge people on their appearance. You can argue all you want about it; but we all do it. So if you look like a dirt bag carrying a gun; you will get treated as such.

I said this before on this forum and got numerous people trying to deny it. I even pointed out an encounter that I had with some Hell's Angels and was told that I was wrong to judge them on their appearance.

[One1]

3 hours ago, Whisper said:

They have the right to ask for what they want inside their business. .

Cheers,

Whisper

Negative. They have the ability to ask. Under conditions that they demand your personal information to determine if you are legally doing anything they are violating your privacy and attempting to police. You and they both have the right to refuse. 

If they call the police and you are arrested it’s because you are trespassing, not because you didn’t show them your carry permit. If they had a right to Police you and see it, that’s what you’d be arrested for. So it should go both ways..... the police are called and you are standing on the other side  of the street. Inform the officer a rights violation has taken place and THEY get arrested on a technicality just like you would. Gonna happen? Nope. That’s how it should however. That’s why we created civil rights, so when they are violated someone is accountable. 

[DaveTN]

[KahrMan]

1 hour ago, One1 said:

Negative. They have the ability to ask. Under conditions that they demand your personal information to determine if you are legally doing anything they are violating your privacy and attempting to police. You and they both have the right to refuse. 

If they call the police and you are arrested it’s because you are trespassing, not because you didn’t show them your carry permit. If they had a right to Police you and see it, that’s what you’d be arrested for. So it should go both ways..... the police are called and you are standing on the other side  of the street. Inform the officer a rights violation has taken place and THEY get arrested on a technicality just like you would. Gonna happen? Nope. That’s how it should however. That’s why we created civil rights, so when they are violated someone is accountable. 

People carrying guns is not a recognized protected class like race etc.  If they see you carrying a gun in their place of business, they have every right to ask to see your HCP.  You do not have to show it but they do have the right to ask.  That in no way infringes on any of your rights.  You do not have the right to carry a gun in public in Tennessee.  You pay for the privilege of carrying.

And even if it was some sort of rights violation the police still would not arrest the owners.  Police arrest for criminal violations and that would be a civil violation.  

[BHunted]

22 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

People carrying guns is not a recognized protected class like race etc.  If they see you carrying a gun in their place of business, they have every right to ask to see your HCP.  You do not have to show it but they do have the right to ask.  That in no way infringes on any of your rights.  You do not have the right to carry a gun in public in Tennessee.  You pay for the privilege of carrying.

And even if it was some sort of rights violation the police still would not arrest the owners.  Police arrest for criminal violations and that would be a civil violation.  

They do NOT have the right to see it. They have the right to ask, state rules in their business, etc.

If they are not satisfied, they can ask you to leave. 

Too many people have confused the terms: Rights, Privileges and Rules.... It is your Privilege to drive your car properly documented. It is not your right.
You have Rules that state, you do not want peoples feet on your coffee table in your home. You have Rights as a citizen as per our constitution. ie, Right to Bear Arms. It is not your right to go against someone else's rules on private property nor break their rules. It is a privilege for this restaurant, for instance, that they allow you to eat there. It is not your right or by your rules otherwise. They have no rights to seeing personal documents unless you are willing to show them. They cannot demand them but they can ask you to leave. Easiest way is places need to post it! Period!

Did I get this across somehow?

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by BHunted

[DaveTN]

27 minutes ago, BHunted said:

They do NOT have the right to see it. They have the right to ask, state rules in their business, etc.

If they are not satisfied, they can ask you to leave. 

Too many people have confused the terms: Rights, Privileges and Rules.... It is your Privilege to drive your car properly documented. It is not your right.
You have Rules that state, you do not want peoples feet on your coffee table in your home. You have Rights as a citizen as per our constitution. ie, Right to Bear Arms. It is not your right to go against someone else's rules on private property nor break their rules. It is a privilege for this restaurant, for instance, that they allow you to eat there. It is not your right or by your rules otherwise. They have no rights to seeing personal documents unless you are willing to show them. They cannot demand them but they can ask you to leave. Easiest way is places need to post it! Period!

Did I get this across somehow?

 

I don’t think most of us are misunderstanding what is being said, we just don’t agree with it.

They certainly have the right to ask you anything they want. They also have the right to ask you to leave based on your response unless it has to do with a protected class.

You have a right to own a gun and have it in your house under the 2nd amendment. You do not have that right on another’s property. As a matter of fact, in Tennessee it is a crime to carry in public without a permit; carrying in public is a privilege you purchase from the state. A business does not have to have privileges forced up on them. Therefore they can ask you, and based on your response decide if they want to allow you to come in.

No one is saying you can be arrested for refusing to show your permit; but you can be arrested for refusing to leave their property.

 

[Defender]

One of several things I dislike about Tennessee's HCP law is that if you carry past a legally posted sign, you van be arrested.  Never heard of that actually happening but you can be  I think you might then be in jeopardy of losing your HCP as well.  Some states wrote theirs a little differently in that it is NOT an offense.

[BHunted]

27 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t think most of us are misunderstanding what is being said, we just don’t agree with it.

They certainly have the right to ask you anything they want. They also have the right to ask you to leave based on your response unless it has to do with a protected class.

You have a right to own a gun and have it in your house under the 2nd amendment. You do not have that right on another’s property. As a matter of fact, in Tennessee it is a crime to carry in public without a permit; carrying in public is a privilege you purchase from the state. A business does not have to have privileges forced up on them. Therefore they can ask you, and based on your response decide if they want to allow you to come in.

No one is saying you can be arrested for refusing to show your permit; but you can be arrested for refusing to leave their property.

 

Thought I said that...

[Defender]

2 hours ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t think most of us are misunderstanding what is being said, we just don’t agree with it.

They certainly have the right to ask you anything they want. They also have the right to ask you to leave based on your response unless it has to do with a protected class.

You have a right to own a gun and have it in your house under the 2nd amendment. You do not have that right on another’s property. As a matter of fact, in Tennessee it is a crime to carry in public without a permit; carrying in public is a privilege you purchase from the state. A business does not have to have privileges forced up on them. Therefore they can ask you, and based on your response decide if they want to allow you to come in.

No one is saying you can be arrested for refusing to show your permit; but you can be arrested for refusing to leave their property.

 

I understand the Tennessee law you talk about, but broader speaking, how is the 2nd Amendment permitted to be disregarded by States, by requiring special permissions and rules, when the 10th amendment doesn't say it can be? The 2nd Amendment doesnt say the right to bear arms...on your own property...

Edited May 8, 2020 by Defender

[Garufa]

13 minutes ago, Defender said:

I understand the Tennessee law you talk about, but broader speaking, how is the 2nd Amendment permitted to be disregarded by States, by requiring special permissions and rules, when the 10th amendment doesn't say it can be? The 2nd Amendment doesnt say the right to bear arms...on your own property...

229 years of Federal and State court decisions, or lack thereof, say so.  Not saying it’s right, it’s just the reality.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Garufa

[DaveTN]

20 minutes ago, Defender said:

I understand the Tennessee law you talk about, but broader speaking, how is the 2nd Amendment permitted to be disregarded by States, by requiring special permissions and rules, when the 10th amendment doesn't say it can be? The 2nd Amendment doesnt say the right to bear arms...on your own property...

Because that’s how the SCOTUS has interpreted it. They allow states to apply “reasonable restrictions”. They don’t say what those restrictions are. They will hear them, or not, as they make their way to them.

Even if this state goes “Constitutional Carry”, I assume there will still be laws that allow for businesses to post their property.

The government does some overbearing things that many of us see as violations. But so do some gun owners. If a business doesn’t want you carrying a gun, and makes you aware of that, that’s how it will be.

I support that. Now, that being said I would support the government telling a business they have to allow you to carry if they give the business absolute immunity. That means they can’t even be named in a civil suit about a gun. But of course, the lawyers will never go for that. Liability is the reason these businesses are posted. When someone get hurt on their property because a gun was present; the attorneys will go after the deep pockets. Which is usually them.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

And we apparently keep forgetting the TN state Constitution reads in Article 1 Section 26. That the citizens of this state have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime. 

So even if we want to argue that the federal Constitution allows no infringements or impediments to any and all carry of any and all weapons (which is shaky legal and historical ground) , the TN State Constitution clearly reserves the right of the legislature to regulate the wearing of arms in the state of Tennessee. 

Frankly I'd like to see the "enhanced permit" have the added value of eliminating the force of law from the signage. ANY business would still be able to ask you to leave if they so choose. But if you have the "enhanced permit" the signs then would not get you in legal trouble. 

[A.J. Holst]

Don't break the law when you're breaking the law.

Carry concealed!

[monkeylizard]

On 8/14/2019 at 2:07 PM, bersaguy said:

So according to that law a person can carry pistol on their person but not allowed to have it loaded or have the amunition on their person that fits the gun???? Ok so what is the sense in packing an empty gun around?? That is another one of those useless laws that cost the taxpayers to pay some politician to introduce which we all know had to come from the left. I guess if the gun is big enough you could use it for a club in a knife fight!!!!

I know it's an older post, but @bersaguy that law is there for folks without permits. It's not about carrying an unloaded firearm. It allows them to lawfully transport their firearms to places like the gun range, gunsmith, etc. or as someone else pointed out, to carry it home from the gun store after buying it.

[tnhawk]

On 1/29/2020 at 5:39 PM, lock n' load said:

Out of sight, out of mind is my philosophy..

That has worked very well for me for over 20 years.  I've has more issues carrying a knife as it was visible.

Edited May 14, 2020 by tnhawk

[leroy]

On 1/29/2020 at 6:39 PM, lock n' load said:

Out of sight, out of mind is my philosophy..

Amen... 

It's a variation on " What the eye does not see, the heart does not yearn for (...or fear...)"...

[lock n' load]

This is just another downside to open carry. It can cause unwanted attention. It's not worth the hassle of debating or arguing with a business over their views of carrying a gun into their business. If they don't want me to carry there then I'll just go somewhere else.They should at least post a sign as to avoid any misunderstanding.

[Raoul]

So if you have a carry permit why would you be so stupid as to wear your firearm in such a manner as to make you a target??

[monkeylizard]

18 hours ago, Raoul said:

So if you have a carry permit why would you be so stupid as to wear your firearm in such a manner as to make you a target??

I for one like that our permits work for CC or OC. It should be a personal choice and I don't begrudge anyone for making a different choice than me. I don't think it's "stupid" to OC. It would be "stupid" to OC and expect to never be hassled about it, but if someone has decided that the hassle is worth it to them, by all means go for it. (Note, this is about OC/CC normal firearms, not a jackass making a political statement thinking it will "help the cause" but only serves to paint us all with the nut-job brush strokes).

First, always remember that a person's physical limitations mean OC works better for them. If the choice is OC or no-carry, I'd take OC all day every day.

I suppose from a tactical perspective it makes for a faster draw if you don't have to get a shirt/jacket out of the way. That very slight advantage can be mitigated with training/practice. It of course comes at the possible disadvantage of being targeted first. I say "possible" because I suspect that a perp won't usually notice. I've watched a guy OC in a CVS with a full old-west leather gun belt complete with the extra boolits in the loops and a .44 hog leg revolver. I'm convinced nobody noticed it but me. Add in the adrenaline and tunnel vision that has to come with committing an armed robbery and in my non-professional and purely anecdotal opinion, they're probably too focused on the cash register and clerk to notice details like an OC'd gun. But that's only my opinion and it could be wrong and the OCer could be targeted first. I guess that's the long way of saying that I don't think CC or OC makes much difference at all if things go bad but I'm not a professional gunslinger and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I may be wrong. In the end, OC comes with no real davantage but has the disadvantage of possibly being hassled by management/scared customer/police so I don't see the point.

From a strategic perspective, OC can sort of make sense if you bend some logic just right. In theory, it's used to change the way others view firearm possession specifically, and ownership generally. The more often people see a thing which is scary to them, the less scary it becomes. That's likely a true statement in general, but in this case I don't think there are enough people OC'ing to make a difference in the way non-gun owners see firearms. That infrequently seen scary thing remains an infrequently seen scary thing.

In some specific cases, OC can be used as a deterrent. That's why banks and other high-value places have visibly armed guards. After the 2010 flood I intentionally OC'd at my home for months afterward. We had dozens upon dozens of volunteers and contractors in and out of the house doing cleanup and repairs. If any of them had plans for an easy target, I wanted them to know they needed to keep looking. Honestly, I was a new gun owner at the time and most of it was driven by what was ultimately an unwarranted fear of looters, having seen it on TV following most major disasters. We had very little looting/theft around here after the flood and a I did my leg work checking out contractors as best I could. In the end, we had great people doing great work.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by monkeylizard

[deerslayer]

3 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

I've watched a guy OC in a CVS with a full old-west leather gun belt complete with the extra boolits in the loops and a .44 hog leg revolver. I'm convinced nobody noticed it but me.

Just because nobody stared at him or mentioned anything, that doesn't mean somebody didn't take note.  I often see people OCing, but don't speak to them about it or otherwise make a fuss.  Unfortunatey, more times than not, they are using a cheap Uncle Mike's or Fobus holster and would be easy to disarm.  They usually don't notice or care that someone is standing two feet behind them and could easily take their gun.  They are probably the types of folks who argue that OC is no big deal because they do it all the time and nobody even notices.  

[monkeylizard]

I watched. Nobody noticed. Nobody even looked his way except the clerk who gave him the cursory head nod and "did you find everything you needed?" then continued with his mind-numbing job of scanning and bagging. It's possible he noticed and didn't care, but I don't think so.

Edited May 18, 2020 by monkeylizard