El Paso Mall shooting

[Omega]

2 minutes ago, Ronald_55 said:

Most 7-11s I have been in barely have 21 feet of room in any direction. 

Yea, as most places where a criminal may chose to ambush you can be.  And they have the advantage of picking the time and place, so vigilance and staying out of likely ambush areas is key.

[DaveTN]

You guys are correct and this has nothing to do with you but I laugh every time I see this 21 foot number. I expect someday to see a case where people are measuring and yelling about someone getting shot when they were 25 or 30 feet away. probably would have been the case if the Police arrived at the first scene and killed this guy.

[hipower]

Ok...this comment is a bit out of place here. At least in the specific topic I want to address.

One of my, and other's, fear is of the disgruntled neighbor, wife, or other family member.

A single bit of hate, and I think that will be the driving force more than fear; will likely be the cause of a confiscation of weapons under the "RED FLAG" laws.

For me personally, it's the irate neighbor that causes me concern. We are the lone conservative in our immediate neighborhood. Most are moderate and quiet in their comments, but several are, by my standards anyway, wildly left-leaning and seem to salivate at the thought of taking any action against anyone disagreeing with their own ideology. 

We have on this street MADD, Moms Demand Action, LBGQT supporters, vehement Bernie supporters, and a few who still scream that Hillary was robbed.

We/I became friendly with a couple of them after moving in, and I even took one shooting with me. That didn't seem to make him any more likeable, nor has he ever asked to go again. 

His FB postings are full of Trump hate and all that goes with it.

I have chosen to keep all but a passing "Hello" distance from him.

So this guy reaches out and tells LEO that he fears that a neighbor has weapons and might be unstable.

Where does that leave me/us?

Red Flag laws are a quagmire. Some good from them, but the potential for massive misuse is there. And that worries me.

[Wingshooter]

19 minutes ago, hipower said:

Ok...this comment is a bit out of place here. At least in the specific topic I want to address.

One of my, and other's, fear is of the disgruntled neighbor, wife, or other family member.

A single bit of hate, and I think that will be the driving force more than fear; will likely be the cause of a confiscation of weapons under the "RED FLAG" laws.

For me personally, it's the irate neighbor that causes me concern. We are the lone conservative in our immediate neighborhood. Most are moderate and quiet in their comments, but several are, by my standards anyway, wildly left-leaning and seem to salivate at the thought of taking any action against anyone disagreeing with their own ideology. 

We have on this street MADD, Moms Demand Action, LBGQT supporters, vehement Bernie supporters, and a few who still scream that Hillary was robbed.

We/I became friendly with a couple of them after moving in, and I even took one shooting with me. That didn't seem to make him any more likeable, nor has he ever asked to go again. 

His FB postings are full of Trump hate and all that goes with it.

I have chosen to keep all but a passing "Hello" distance from him.

So this guy reaches out and tells LEO that he fears that a neighbor has weapons and might be unstable.

Where does that leave me/us?

Red Flag laws are a quagmire. Some good from them, but the potential for massive misuse is there. And that worries me.

Exactly!

[Chucktshoes]

Red Flag laws will be abused. One needs to look no further than the way that restraining orders are abused in divorce proceedings to see what the future holds. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Chucktshoes

[Omega]

19 minutes ago, hipower said:

Ok...this comment is a bit out of place here. At least in the specific topic I want to address.

One of my, and other's, fear is of the disgruntled neighbor, wife, or other family member.

A single bit of hate, and I think that will be the driving force more than fear; will likely be the cause of a confiscation of weapons under the "RED FLAG" laws.

For me personally, it's the irate neighbor that causes me concern. We are the lone conservative in our immediate neighborhood. Most are moderate and quiet in their comments, but several are, by my standards anyway, wildly left-leaning and seem to salivate at the thought of taking any action against anyone disagreeing with their own ideology. 

We have on this street MADD, Moms Demand Action, LBGQT supporters, vehement Bernie supporters, and a few who still scream that Hillary was robbed.

We/I became friendly with a couple of them after moving in, and I even took one shooting with me. That didn't seem to make him any more likeable, nor has he ever asked to go again. 

His FB postings are full of Trump hate and all that goes with it.

I have chosen to keep all but a passing "Hello" distance from him.

So this guy reaches out and tells LEO that he fears that a neighbor has weapons and might be unstable.

Where does that leave me/us?

Red Flag laws are a quagmire. Some good from them, but the potential for massive misuse is there. And that worries me.

Red Flag laws have more potential of abuse than actually doing any good IMHO.  There are already laws on the books which can apply, is it not illegal to threaten bodily harm, is trespassing not illegal, are not orders of protection not available?  The coming to someones house with no prior notice and kicking the door down has more potential for deadly consequences than sending a certified letter or peacefully knocking on the door to serve a notice to appear.  

[btq96r]

I'm against red flag laws on principal.  They tend to supersede due process, to say nothing of actual investigatory work (though I acknowledge resource limitations in that area compared to the problem).  It won't take long before they tie some connection to medical databases, especially the VA.  At that point, any veteran who had combat action, and/or claims PTSD is on "the list".  No thanks.

Edited August 8, 2019 by btq96r

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, hipower said:

Ok...this comment is a bit out of place here. At least in the specific topic I want to address.

One of my, and other's, fear is of the disgruntled neighbor, wife, or other family member.

A single bit of hate, and I think that will be the driving force more than fear; will likely be the cause of a confiscation of weapons under the "RED FLAG" laws.

For me personally, it's the irate neighbor that causes me concern. We are the lone conservative in our immediate neighborhood. Most are moderate and quiet in their comments, but several are, by my standards anyway, wildly left-leaning and seem to salivate at the thought of taking any action against anyone disagreeing with their own ideology. 

We have on this street MADD, Moms Demand Action, LBGQT supporters, vehement Bernie supporters, and a few who still scream that Hillary was robbed.

We/I became friendly with a couple of them after moving in, and I even took one shooting with me. That didn't seem to make him any more likeable, nor has he ever asked to go again. 

His FB postings are full of Trump hate and all that goes with it.

I have chosen to keep all but a passing "Hello" distance from him.

So this guy reaches out and tells LEO that he fears that a neighbor has weapons and might be unstable.

Where does that leave me/us?

Red Flag laws are a quagmire. Some good from them, but the potential for massive misuse is there. And that worries me.

It should worry you. And you should know what the Red Flag laws in your state are. Do you know? Do any of you know? I don’t know and I have asked several times on this forum without a response from anyone in law enforcement or any laws quoted. My guess is from what I’ve seen posted on the internet that they can take your guns, and have you committed pretty easily; I don’t think there are many rules in places for you getting your weapons back. Hence…no due process. My support is for doing away with this “do whatever you like” process and have a specifically called out set of rules and regulations of due process.

Is your neighbor calling the Police accusing you of a crime? Or just thinks you are nuts? The Officer sent out may knock on your door and hear what you have to say, or he may not.

Anyone can accuse you of a crime. If there is probable cause to believe the “victim” the Officer will arrest you or use his discretion and not arrest you. If after talking to you, the Officer decides no crime has been committed; he will leave. If after reading you your rights (the first indicator you are the suspect of a crime) and you talk to him he may either arrest you or believe you and not arrest you. If you invoke your right to remain silent he will move forward with whatever information he has.

Would Red Flag laws and Domestic Violence laws be used against innocent people in family situations and Divorces? Of course, everyday would be my guess. If you expect that is going to happen you better have a plan to cover your butt; or you will likely be in jail. Sorry, but you married her; if you can’t handle your personal life that’s what happens.

Be ready to take responsibility for your actions. Or…Life’s not fair; wear a helmet. That's not Directed at you Hipower; just a general statement.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by DaveTN

[Wingshooter]

10 minutes ago, Omega said:

Red Flag laws have more potential of abuse than actually doing any good IMHO.  There are already laws on the books which can apply, is it not illegal to threaten bodily harm, is trespassing not illegal, are not orders of protection not available?  The coming to someones house with no prior notice and kicking the door down has more potential for deadly consequences than sending a certified letter or peacefully knocking on the door to serve a notice to appear.  

Yeah, it seems to me that the whole purpose of a Red Flag Law is to circumvent due process and individual rights. 

[gregintenn]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Think about it this way… When you arrive after people have called asking for help its you GlockSpock (Sorry, I don’t know what your first name is) that is there to help them. Not the PD, not the legal system, you…as a person. You will have family members scared to death look you in the eye and beg you for help. What will be important is not how you appear to others on a forum; its going to be can you do your job properly with the tools you have to work with, to stop the violence. You have that responsibility to the people that ask for your help. You have that responsibility to your community, and you have that responsibility to the other Officer you work with, so they don’t have to follow behind you and do your job.

Every case will be different. I have never suggest violating anyone’s Constitutional rights, although some here seem to think taking guns from someone threatening to commit homicide or suicide is a violation. I would do what I needed to do and if anyone felt I had violated their rights; they were certainly free to get a lawyer and sue me.

I handled a domestic violence case where a 6-year-old boy was shot to death. Everyone said I did everything I could have done; and I probably did. But it has bothered me all my life. I was called to keep a family safe and I failed.

I would never make that mistake again. So, would I take a firearm? Absolutely and wouldn’t have to think twice about it. You threaten someone and I would cuff you and book you into jail. Do what I would do if guns weren’t involved??? Okay if that woman asks me to help her get the knives and hammers out of the house; that is precisely what would happen. I’m not leaving that old man at home; gun or not. he’s going to sign himself into the hospital voluntarily or he’s going to be arrested and committed on a psych hold. Guns are leaving the house; he has proven he isn’t responsible enough to have them.

When cops are called, they are supposed to do their job. Some do, some don’t. Court isn’t held on the street. Worrying about violating the rights of someone that has just threatened to kill someone is a cop that isn’t prepared to do their job, hasn’t been properly trained, hasn’t read the Constitution, doesn’t have a real understanding of it, or all of the above.

Why wouldn’t you arrest the hypothetical guy and leave his possessions where they are? Wouldn’t that more surely remove the threat?

[DaveTN]

4 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Why wouldn’t you arrest the hypothetical guy and leave his possessions where they are? Wouldn’t that more surely remove the threat?

In the first cases because the guy is going to jail and his wife doesn’t want the guns there when he gets out.

In the second case because the guy is threatening suicide and his wife wants the guns gone. He’s getting committed and they will be taken anyway.

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

In the first cases because the guy is going to jail and his wife doesn’t want the guns there when he gets out.

In the second case because the guy is threatening suicide and his wife wants the guns gone. He’s getting committed and they will be taken anyway.

Wife can sell them while he’s away. I don’t see confiscation of a legal item being a police officer’s burden. Would you take all his money as well so he can’t buy a gun?

[E4 No More]

11 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Wife can sell them while he’s away. I don’t see confiscation of a legal item being a police officer’s burden. Would you take all his money as well so he can’t buy a gun?

Well, if she was in fear of her life do you really think she's going to provoke him by selling his  while he's detained?

[Omega]

7 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Well, if she was in fear of her life do you really think she's going to provoke him by selling his  while he's detained?

A woman that has involved LEO has overcome that particular fear.  She does have the option of putting them into storage somewhere, or a family member's, or friend's house.

[E4 No More]

19 minutes ago, Omega said:

A woman that has involved LEO has overcome that particular fear.  She does have the option of putting them into storage somewhere, or a family member's, or friend's house.

As a former LEO I can assure you that she has not - particularly when she finds out that the police can't hold him.

[Dirtshooter]

So basically if anyone knows you have firearms and they want to cause you lots of misery and money all they need do is call 911. My neighbor Bob pointed a gun at my child, or he threatened to shoot my dog because he doesn't like poodles, or any of 1,000,000 other crappy lies to get poor ole Bob thrown in the pokey and his nice collection of guns confiscated. Sounds a whole lot like some crazy nutcase named Hitler, Stalin to name but a few.  Rule # 1 live in the country, way out in the country where your neighbor can just barely hear you shoot a gun, Rule # 2 have a big steel gate and a lot of not so nice German Shepherds and a clear view of the gate at about 600 yds. Put up a sign, turn around and leave or I have to fire up the backhoe, Again!!

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, E4 No More said:

Well, if she was in fear of her life do you really think she's going to provoke him by selling his  while he's detained?

It wouldn't provoke me any more than asking the police haul them off.

Now I'm looking at this from a different perspective than most. A guy has a shotgun and a pistol: that's no big issue to haul off.

I cringe at the thought of my collection that has taken a lifetime to amass being tossed into a dump truck or Uhaul truck like luggage at the airport.

Edited August 8, 2019 by gregintenn

[Magiccarpetrides]

Just jumping in here to say that I do think the current background checks are a joke when it comes to stopping people that aren't felons but have mental health problems from acquiring guns...it basically asks YES or NO if you have ever had mental health issues or been diagnosed...wow that's a hard one to bypass..checking NO lol.  However the way privacy laws currently are...way over the top when it comes to mental health hospitalizations I don't see how they can fix it without changing those first.  It needs to be fixed...most of these mass shooters have issues...the one in Dayton had a kill and rape list in highschool!  Honestly as much as it pains a wheeler dealer like me I do think the private person sales should be amended such as you have to have some kind of card or check or a valid carry permit to legally buy or sell from another person....any ol felon can just buy from someone on here or meet online and lie to the seller or buyer...way too easy to work around.   Do I think anything will actually get done barring something insane like that recent BS bumpstock ban...no I don't....we will all argue back and forth and 20 more mass shooting from now...we will still be arguing.

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, Omega said:

A woman that has involved LEO has overcome that particular fear.  She does have the option of putting them into storage somewhere, or a family member's, or friend's house.

 

30 minutes ago, Dirtshooter said:

So basically if anyone knows you have firearms and they want to cause you lots of misery and money all they need do is call 911. My neighbor Bob pointed a gun at my child, or he threatened to shoot my dog because he doesn't like poodles, or any of 1,000,000 other crappy lies to get poor ole Bob thrown in the pokey and his nice collection of guns confiscated. Sounds a whole lot like some crazy nutcase named Hitler, Stalin to name but a few.  Rule # 1 live in the country, way out in the country where your neighbor can just barely hear you shoot a gun, Rule # 2 have a big steel gate and a lot of not so nice German Shepherds and a clear view of the gate at about 600 yds. Put up a sign, turn around and leave or I have to fire up the backhoe, Again!!

 

12 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It wouldn't provoke me any more than asking the police haul them off.

Now I'm looking at this from a different perspective than most. A guy has a shotgun and a pistol: that's no big issue to haul off.

I cringe at the thought of my collection that has taken a lifetime to amass being tossed into a dump truck or Uhaul truck like luggage at the airport.

If your neighbor or family member accuses you of a crime; you could go to jail until trial (usually not, but you could be if the accusations were bad enough and had supporting evidence). Then you will be tried by either a Judge or a jury of your peers; usually your choice.

Rarely is a BS case going to make it to trial, rarely are guns going to be seized in a BS case. Could it happen? Yes…stay away from hateful crazy people....and whatever you do; don't marry them or move in with them. Your resulting bad luck and loss of guns won't be the cops fault; it will be your own.

Burden? It wouldn’t be a burden to me to reduce the possibility of me having to come to his house and kill him after he starts shooting people.

Some of you seem to think that the safety of the family or the safety of the public are somehow secondary to the rights of a criminal thug threatening a violent act. Nothing could be farther from the truth and is not required by the United States Constitution or by Criminal Law.

[beebee233]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

 

Some of you seem to think that the safety of the family or the safety of the public are somehow secondary to the rights of a criminal thug threatening a violent act. Nothing could be farther from the truth and is not required by the United States Constitution or by Criminal Law.

I'm in this part of the thread late but, in regards to the "rights of a criminal thug threatening a violent act", when exactly does this person become a criminal, when does he become a thug? 

[Dustbuster]

Allowing any governing body, to take anything (within reason) from someone just because a 3rd party claims they've been threatened, or they "feel" they may be threatened is just pure insane. Its as stupid as an alleged DV victim moving back in with the bad husband/bf/etc....Red Flag is a means to the end, and should be fought at all cost. WE don't purposely disable bad drivers cars, and we allow those convicted repeatedly of dui, to drive, AGAIN, This red flag crap wont end well.....

[FortKnox]

Read this bull####. Anyone give me a good counter argument to this besides you're a dumbass  

http://officialfan.proboards.com/thread/590115/stay-safe-el-paso?page=8

This also fails to take into account the tactics the gun manufacturers use to sell more guns. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the more people who get killed and more sympathetic the people gunned down, the more profit they can derive. They do so through two separate tactics:

1) Gun manufacturers WANT criminals to get gun. For starters, they still usually buy the guns through loopholes and straw purchases, so they contribute directly to their profits. Second, the percentage of Americans who own firearms is as low as it has ever been. Whenever violent crimes get publicized some of those non-owners change their minds in order to have weapons available to defend themselves and their loved ones. Hell, even my wife suggested we get one and she hates them. This is why any law that could keep guns out of the hands of criminals get so much opposition. Most people, including most gun owners, don’t want criminals to get guns, but the gun manufacturers actually do want that. Guess who gets their way?

2) Every mass shooting also drives up sales. Fewer people own guns, but there are more guns out there. That is because there is a population that owns more guns than they could reasonably use and these guys, worried that someone is coming for their guns, but more guns in the hopes that they can still have more leftovers when that does happen. It’s a stupid mindset, but it is hard to get around and does drive up their profits.

Edited August 11, 2019 by FortKnox

[DaveTN]

You can’t make a counter argument to that person; if they truly believe gun manufacturers want criminals to get guns; they aren’t capable of intelligent discussion.

[FortKnox]

Good point.