El Paso Mall shooting

[Erich]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Is someone going to lose their guns because of a pizzed off wife in a dispute? You bet. It happens now and these laws won’t change that. You picked her and you have to deal with the consequences of that action.

Nothing in a family dispute will be “fair” for everyone. And as always… you will get just as much “justice” as you can afford. You need to be the one able to afford the attorney that has “connections” with the Judge.

Is that not concerning? This strikes me its the concept that the needs of the many (legitimate cases) outweigh the needs of the few (malicious cases).

Better than nothing?

 

2 hours ago, GlockSpock said:

First scenario. If there is sufficient evidence to support that her husband has threatened to kill her....

I personally believe that if a person is free (not incarcerated), they should be able to own and possess a firearm. If someone has evil on their mind, a law forbidding them from owning a firearm isn't going to stop them. If they are truly bad enough to not be trusted with a firearm, perhaps they should still be in prison.

More curiousity, can you elaborate on what you thing sufficient evidence is? Assuming someone is not capturing it on video, it can come down to sworn statements. Which those that are willing to lie, know cant be proven or dis-proven unless there are witnesses. Credibility is a funny thing. Relies on a bit of subjectivity and how good a lawyer is at twisting someones words or surfacing inconsistency, as well as how good a liar someone is

if you want to hear lies, the best place to go is a court or a hearing.

I guess, is He said  blah blah blah, good enough?

 

On the second part, do you believe that prison rehabilitates? I appreciate you cant predict evil and as we have seen you dont have to have been to prison to be evil.  So in lieu of being able to predict the future, past behavior is used. Say someone committed murder in the past or used another weapon in an attempted murder?  How do you know they cant be trusted with a firearm until its too late?

To be fair, that last bit applies to anyone whether they have been to prison or not.

Would it not be great if we could develop an Evilmeter.

 

[gregintenn]

34 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

That would work.  Keep them in jail until trial. Great idea!

Would you give them the option of being able to bond out if they voluntarily surrender their firearms? Because that’s what they are going to want to do. 

This and NO!

Our justice system needs a serous overhaul

If one isn’t to be trusted with firearms, one should not be free to roam in public, and damned sure shouldn’t be allowed to vote..

[beebee233]

40 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

That would work.  Keep them in jail until trial. Great idea!

Would you give them the option of being able to bond out if they voluntarily surrender their firearms? Because that’s what they are going to want to do. 

If the threat is real, it doesn't matter if you remove the guns or not if you keep the knives, cars, bats, sticks, nail guns, screwdrivers, blowtorches, hammers, shovels, rakes, axes, etc. around.

[AuEagle]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

You think it’s an unreasonable seizure to take firearms from someone threatening homicide or suicide?

There are so many things in a house that can be used as a weapon or device to commit suicide, but by all means grab the guns, they're dangerous.

[AuEagle]

4 minutes ago, beebee233 said:

If the threat is real, it doesn't matter if you remove the guns or not if you keep the knives, cars, bats, sticks, nail guns, screwdrivers, blowtorches, hammers, shovels, rakes, axes, etc. around.

You forgot turning off the electricity & gas, maybe break the "suspects" fingers so he/she can't strangle anyone.

[RED333]

26 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Our justice system needs a serous overhaul

If one isn’t to be trusted with firearms, one should not be free to roam in public, and damned sure shouldn’t be allowed to vote..

DING, DING, DING we have a winner!

[btq96r]

4 hours ago, Erich said:

I think you put it perfectly with that last qualifier, "in your mind".  Which is fine, just not the case clinically.  Trial competence (fortunately) has little to do with a person being crazy as much as it means they have an awareness and can respond to proceedings. Psycopaths are perfectly fit trial but not to be out running around.

I trust you are not saying you think its normal (clinically acceptable behavior) to go around killing people without any remorse. Put another way, "My doc told me its OK to work out my anger by shooting people as I am not insane and is a fine coping mechanism for me"

 

No, I don't think it's normal to use murder to handle anger issues. 

But I also don't think "mental illness" is a root cause to explain away what these events are happening when by and large, the shooters are competent to stand trial because they clearly understood what they were doing.  Clinical definitions can be pretty broad, so I mislike when we let them cloud the conversation past the legal definition of if someone can be held to account for their actions.

[Dirtshooter]

3 hours ago, gregintenn said:

This and NO!

Our justice system needs a serous overhaul

If one isn’t to be trusted with firearms, one should not be free to roam in public, and damned sure shouldn’t be allowed to vote..

And if one can't be rehabilitated don't put them in prison where we have to feed and house them, eliminate the threat. And not by a $40,000 lethal injection, just hang em.

[Omega]

I wonder if they took his guns?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-07/garden-grove-killing-multiple-homicides

4 killed and 2 injured in Orange County stabbing attacks

By JACLYN COSGROVE, 

LOUIS SAHAGUN

AUG. 7, 2019

 

9:35 PM

Four people are dead and two others injured after a 33-year-old Garden Grove man went on a stabbing spree Wednesday night across Santa Ana and Garden Grove.

Police officers with Garden Grove and Santa Ana police departments arrested the suspect at a 7-Eleven in Santa Ana after spotting his silver Mercedes.

When the man came outside the convenience store, he had a handgun that he had taken from the store’s security guard and a knife.

The man’s name have not been released, and his motive is not currently known.

The crimes apparently started as robberies and evolved into a stabbing spree, according to police. Police on Wednesday evening were trying to get the man to explain what unfolded.

Authorities said the man and all of his victims are Latino. Garden Grove police Lt. Carl Whitney said motive appears to be robbery as well as anger and hate. He did not comment further on the reasons for the attack, but authorities say that there is nothing to indicate this was racially motivated.

A Santa Ana police official told the Times that, based on initial information received Wednesday night, authorities believe the suspect was an angry person who took it out on his victims.

The mayhem began Wednesday early evening when authorities say the man first stabbed and killed two men at an apartment complex in the 12100 block of Jentges Avenue in Garden Grove.

He also attempted to rob a bakery and then proceeded to go to an insurance business and stab a woman, who is expected to survive.

Next, about 6:09 p.m., he stabbed a man pumping gas at a Chevron station, almost cutting off the man’s nose. The victim was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive.

The suspect then proceeded to kill a man at a nearby Subway and then attacked a security guard at a 7-Eleven across the street, stabbing and killing him before he was found and arrested by police.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

[GlockSpock]

4 hours ago, Omega said:

I wonder if they took his guns?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-07/garden-grove-killing-multiple-homicides

4 killed and 2 injured in Orange County stabbing attacks

By JACLYN COSGROVE, 

LOUIS SAHAGUN

AUG. 7, 2019

 

9:35 PM

Four people are dead and two others injured after a 33-year-old Garden Grove man went on a stabbing spree Wednesday night across Santa Ana and Garden Grove.

Police officers with Garden Grove and Santa Ana police departments arrested the suspect at a 7-Eleven in Santa Ana after spotting his silver Mercedes.

When the man came outside the convenience store, he had a handgun that he had taken from the store’s security guard and a knife.

The man’s name have not been released, and his motive is not currently known.

The crimes apparently started as robberies and evolved into a stabbing spree, according to police. Police on Wednesday evening were trying to get the man to explain what unfolded.

Authorities said the man and all of his victims are Latino. Garden Grove police Lt. Carl Whitney said motive appears to be robbery as well as anger and hate. He did not comment further on the reasons for the attack, but authorities say that there is nothing to indicate this was racially motivated.

A Santa Ana police official told the Times that, based on initial information received Wednesday night, authorities believe the suspect was an angry person who took it out on his victims.

The mayhem began Wednesday early evening when authorities say the man first stabbed and killed two men at an apartment complex in the 12100 block of Jentges Avenue in Garden Grove.

He also attempted to rob a bakery and then proceeded to go to an insurance business and stab a woman, who is expected to survive.

Next, about 6:09 p.m., he stabbed a man pumping gas at a Chevron station, almost cutting off the man’s nose. The victim was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive.

The suspect then proceeded to kill a man at a nearby Subway and then attacked a security guard at a 7-Eleven across the street, stabbing and killing him before he was found and arrested by police.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

I hope so. It would have been tragic if they didn’t. 

[FUJIMO]

5 hours ago, Omega said:

I wonder if they took his guns?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-07/garden-grove-killing-multiple-homicides

4 killed and 2 injured in Orange County stabbing attacks

By JACLYN COSGROVE, 

LOUIS SAHAGUN

AUG. 7, 2019

 

9:35 PM

Four people are dead and two others injured after a 33-year-old Garden Grove man went on a stabbing spree Wednesday night across Santa Ana and Garden Grove.

Police officers with Garden Grove and Santa Ana police departments arrested the suspect at a 7-Eleven in Santa Ana after spotting his silver Mercedes.

When the man came outside the convenience store, he had a handgun that he had taken from the store’s security guard and a knife.

The man’s name have not been released, and his motive is not currently known.

The crimes apparently started as robberies and evolved into a stabbing spree, according to police. Police on Wednesday evening were trying to get the man to explain what unfolded.

Authorities said the man and all of his victims are Latino. Garden Grove police Lt. Carl Whitney said motive appears to be robbery as well as anger and hate. He did not comment further on the reasons for the attack, but authorities say that there is nothing to indicate this was racially motivated.

A Santa Ana police official told the Times that, based on initial information received Wednesday night, authorities believe the suspect was an angry person who took it out on his victims.

The mayhem began Wednesday early evening when authorities say the man first stabbed and killed two men at an apartment complex in the 12100 block of Jentges Avenue in Garden Grove.

He also attempted to rob a bakery and then proceeded to go to an insurance business and stab a woman, who is expected to survive.

Next, about 6:09 p.m., he stabbed a man pumping gas at a Chevron station, almost cutting off the man’s nose. The victim was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive.

The suspect then proceeded to kill a man at a nearby Subway and then attacked a security guard at a 7-Eleven across the street, stabbing and killing him before he was found and arrested by police.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

And according to the Today show earlier this week anything with 4+ murders is considered a MASS murder so let's all sit back and see if they hammer this down our throats since it was a latino on latino crime with a knife instead of a white guy with a "I Trump" sticker on his ultra right wing vehicle. The report I heard this morning suggested he was brought into custody with both the knife and gun on his person. Maybe he just enjoyed the intimacy of stabbing his fellow people. Or guns scare him, lol.

[GlockSpock]

17 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Okay, that’s fair. You are willing to let innocent people die instead of what you see as either a rights violation, or just that you can’t stop the inevitable. I’m not. The right of an innocent to be safe and secure trumps the gun rights of a criminal every single time. Someones rights are going to be violated, if its me choosing the choice is going to be an easy one. Your job is to make the situation safe for the innocent family members using whatever laws and procedures you have available to you.

When people call the Police they expect someone to show up that can help them. Too often anymore that is not the case. 

I can absolutely assure you that if an innocent person dies because you didn’t do everything you could, even though you did what the law requires; it would eat at you the rest of your life.

Yes! If that's how you choose to see it.

Or, I view it as the following. Is death by firearm somehow worse or more tragic than any other death? In my opinion, it falls into the narrative of "gun violence" as if somehow the victims of murder by firearm are somehow worse off than any other form.

I thought about your two scenarios a lot last night. I came up with a simpler answer. As a cop, I would do whatever I would do in those situations if firearms were not present. In other words, what would you do in those situations if the two husbands didn't own guns?

As a cop, would you guilt yourself for removing all firearms from the location and then finding out the next day that the husband killed his wife with a butcher knife or strangled her with his belt? Because if all you do is remove the firearms and nothing else, he can still kill her.

[DaveTN]

44 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Yes! If that's how you choose to see it.

Or, I view it as the following. Is death by firearm somehow worse or more tragic than any other death? In my opinion, it falls into the narrative of "gun violence" as if somehow the victims of murder by firearm are somehow worse off than any other form.

I thought about your two scenarios a lot last night. I came up with a simpler answer. As a cop, I would do whatever I would do in those situations if firearms were not present. In other words, what would you do in those situations if the two husbands didn't own guns?

As a cop, would you guilt yourself for removing all firearms from the location and then finding out the next day that the husband killed his wife with a butcher knife or strangled her with his belt? Because if all you do is remove the firearms and nothing else, he can still kill her.

Think about it this way… When you arrive after people have called asking for help its you GlockSpock (Sorry, I don’t know what your first name is) that is there to help them. Not the PD, not the legal system, you…as a person. You will have family members scared to death look you in the eye and beg you for help. What will be important is not how you appear to others on a forum; its going to be can you do your job properly with the tools you have to work with, to stop the violence. You have that responsibility to the people that ask for your help. You have that responsibility to your community, and you have that responsibility to the other Officer you work with, so they don’t have to follow behind you and do your job.

Every case will be different. I have never suggest violating anyone’s Constitutional rights, although some here seem to think taking guns from someone threatening to commit homicide or suicide is a violation. I would do what I needed to do and if anyone felt I had violated their rights; they were certainly free to get a lawyer and sue me.

I handled a domestic violence case where a 6-year-old boy was shot to death. Everyone said I did everything I could have done; and I probably did. But it has bothered me all my life. I was called to keep a family safe and I failed.

I would never make that mistake again. So, would I take a firearm? Absolutely and wouldn’t have to think twice about it. You threaten someone and I would cuff you and book you into jail. Do what I would do if guns weren’t involved??? Okay if that woman asks me to help her get the knives and hammers out of the house; that is precisely what would happen. I’m not leaving that old man at home; gun or not. he’s going to sign himself into the hospital voluntarily or he’s going to be arrested and committed on a psych hold. Guns are leaving the house; he has proven he isn’t responsible enough to have them.

When cops are called, they are supposed to do their job. Some do, some don’t. Court isn’t held on the street. Worrying about violating the rights of someone that has just threatened to kill someone is a cop that isn’t prepared to do their job, hasn’t been properly trained, hasn’t read the Constitution, doesn’t have a real understanding of it, or all of the above.

[Chucktshoes]

"I like taking guns away early," Trump said. "Take the guns first, go through due process second."

[FUJIMO]

4 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

"I like taking guns away early," Trump said. "Take the guns first, go through due process second."

Was this the latest to fall out of his mouth or tweet Chuck ?

[DaveTN]

10 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

"I like taking guns away early," Trump said. "Take the guns first, go through due process second."

That was waaaaay back in February; he might not remember saying that. 

As a lot of things he says are: it was a stupid thing to say. Taking the guns is part of due process; if you have due process.

[Chucktshoes]

14 minutes ago, FUJIMO said:

Was this the latest to fall out of his mouth or tweet Chuck ?

Like Dave said, that was last year. It just seemed germane to the current discussion as I’m reading a lot of posts that sound like a really wordy way of that succinct statement. 

 

Also, I’m thinking we are going to get universal bg checks before this is done. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-openness-to-extensive-background-checks-for-gun-buys-draws-warning-from-nra/2019/08/07/a5f82060-b92d-11e9-a091-6a96e67d9cce_story.html

[FUJIMO]

8 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Like Dave said, that was last year. It just seemed germane to the current discussion as I’m reading a lot of posts that sound like a really wordy way of that succinct statement. 

 

Also, I’m thinking we are going to get universal bg checks before this is done. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-openness-to-extensive-background-checks-for-gun-buys-draws-warning-from-nra/2019/08/07/a5f82060-b92d-11e9-a091-6a96e67d9cce_story.html

Gotcha.

 

I don't know if he can get behind JUST that kind of law and make them happy. And if so for how many shootings will it carry us to the next law ? As others have mentioned earlier in this thread and others the left wants full stop and appear to hear nothing short of that. All I see is 1 law turning a good % of law abiding citizens into felons whenever they need them to be. Sure glad I don't have kids ....

Edited August 8, 2019 by FUJIMO
addition

[AuEagle]

9 hours ago, Omega said:

I wonder if they took his guns?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-07/garden-grove-killing-multiple-homicides

4 killed and 2 injured in Orange County stabbing attacks

By JACLYN COSGROVE, 

LOUIS SAHAGUN

AUG. 7, 2019

 

9:35 PM

Four people are dead and two others injured after a 33-year-old Garden Grove man went on a stabbing spree Wednesday night across Santa Ana and Garden Grove.

Police officers with Garden Grove and Santa Ana police departments arrested the suspect at a 7-Eleven in Santa Ana after spotting his silver Mercedes.

When the man came outside the convenience store, he had a handgun that he had taken from the store’s security guard and a knife.

The man’s name have not been released, and his motive is not currently known.

The crimes apparently started as robberies and evolved into a stabbing spree, according to police. Police on Wednesday evening were trying to get the man to explain what unfolded.

Authorities said the man and all of his victims are Latino. Garden Grove police Lt. Carl Whitney said motive appears to be robbery as well as anger and hate. He did not comment further on the reasons for the attack, but authorities say that there is nothing to indicate this was racially motivated.

A Santa Ana police official told the Times that, based on initial information received Wednesday night, authorities believe the suspect was an angry person who took it out on his victims.

The mayhem began Wednesday early evening when authorities say the man first stabbed and killed two men at an apartment complex in the 12100 block of Jentges Avenue in Garden Grove.

He also attempted to rob a bakery and then proceeded to go to an insurance business and stab a woman, who is expected to survive.

Next, about 6:09 p.m., he stabbed a man pumping gas at a Chevron station, almost cutting off the man’s nose. The victim was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive.

The suspect then proceeded to kill a man at a nearby Subway and then attacked a security guard at a 7-Eleven across the street, stabbing and killing him before he was found and arrested by police.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

Another instance where a firearm in the right hands could have saved lives.

[DaveTN]

12 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Like Dave said, that was last year. It just seemed germane to the current discussion as I’m reading a lot of posts that sound like a really wordy way of that succinct statement. 

 

Also, I’m thinking we are going to get universal bg checks before this is done. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-openness-to-extensive-background-checks-for-gun-buys-draws-warning-from-nra/2019/08/07/a5f82060-b92d-11e9-a091-6a96e67d9cce_story.html

I can’t read that; they want paid.

I would be willing to bet we get universal background checks…soon. I would also bet (although not very much) if they are Federal they don’t make it through the SCOTUS, if they will hear the cases. I wonder if Tennessee will file if they try Federal?

[DaveTN]

7 minutes ago, FUJIMO said:

Gotcha.

I don't know if he can get behind JUST that kind of law and make them happy. And if so for how many shootings will it carry us to the next law ? As others have mentioned earlier in this thread and others the left wants full stop and appear to hear nothing short of that. All I see is 1 law turning a good % of law abiding citizens into felons whenever they need them to be. Sure glad I don't have kids ....

The Democrats have already said “No” to expanding background checks. They want an AR ban or nothing. They won’t get an AR ban.

[Chucktshoes]

11 minutes ago, FUJIMO said:

Gotcha.

 

I don't know if he can get behind JUST that kind of law and make them happy. And if so for how many shootings will it carry us to the next law ? As others have mentioned earlier in this thread and others the left wants full stop and appear to hear nothing short of that. All I see is 1 law turning a good % of law abiding citizens into felons whenever they need them to be. Sure glad I don't have kids ....

We could all turn all of our guns in and it wouldn’t satiate them. The commie turds hate you and won’t be happy until we are all dead in the gulag. 

What many of them don’t get is that a lot of them will be laying next to us. 

[bersaguy]

14 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

Another instance where a firearm in the right hands could have saved lives.

I wish they would have elaborated more on how he managed to get the gun from the Security officer. The guy brought a knife to a gun fight and won!! How often does that happen??? 

[Omega]

Just now, bersaguy said:

I wish they would have elaborated more on how he managed to get the gun from the Security officer. The guy brought a knife to a gun fight and won!! How often does that happen??? 

It is shown that a guy with a knife can close in on, and score a hit on a guy with a gun if within 21 or greater feet if the gunman is not paying attention.

[Ronald_55]

46 minutes ago, Omega said:

It is shown that a guy with a knife can close in on, and score a hit on a guy with a gun if within 21 or greater feet if the gunman is not paying attention.

Most 7-11s I have been in barely have 21 feet of room in any direction.