El Paso Mall shooting

[Chucktshoes]

4 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

It must be discussed. It is wording the SCOTUS has used. We can use that same wording to argue against changes. In intelligent discussions we use our words.

But you aren’t arguing against changes as far as I can tell, Dave. As disappointingly as Dan Crenshaw’s recent turn, you’re arguing FOR the same “common sense” nibbles as the grabbers at this point.  

[GlockSpock]

10 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Really....huh??

 

Further emphasize this point so I know what you mean?

[DaveTN]

7 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

But you aren’t arguing against changes as far as I can tell, Dave. As disappointingly as Dan Crenshaw’s recent turn, you’re arguing FOR the same “common sense” nibbles as the grabbers at this point.  

Chuck you know better. I believe we should be able to have machine guns, suppressors, SBR’s, and no government requirement for a carry permit or training of any kind. I’m discussing what going on the news, the thoughts of the people I know, and my WAG’s about how the courts will rule.

I also think you know I don’t like Trump as a person. But if people just whine and complain (or post pictures) without having an alternative; they are just a whiner and complainer with cartoons and no answers.

[GlockSpock]

15 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

But you aren’t arguing against changes as far as I can tell, Dave. As disappointingly as Dan Crenshaw’s recent turn, you’re arguing FOR the same “common sense” nibbles as the grabbers at this point.  

It basically starts there. Essentially, "this restriction" is reasonable so let's just concede there and be done with this. However, then they want another slice. Then another. You are then left with the little sliver we have now and some gun owners figure it's reasonable for them to tell us when and how we can eat it.

Click that above image to see the rest.

Edited August 6, 2019 by GlockSpock

[btq96r]

24 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Especially when not only is it advertised as such but he also has more guns on the table for sale that many people here own. Couple that with the fact that many of these people as such are supplementing their income by buying/selling guns, even the ATF would consider them a dealer (albeit not a properly setup one). 

Personally, I think you should be able to stop at Ace Hardware on the way home, pay cash, and walkout with an M4 no questions asked. You know, a little concept called freedom.

Concur on all that. 

I just think we need to do some self-reflection on things instead of always pointing to other root causes when a shooting happens.  We can be honest enough to say access to guns and accessories does play a big, if not the biggest enabling role in mass shootings.  We can then in the same breath also say, that's the assumed risk of freedom so we can have a population ready to fight their own government if it ever becomes oppressive enough or disregards the process of law.  A lot of people on all sides of the debate are uncomfortable with that second part, I've noticed.

[DaveTN]

37 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Personally, I think you should be able to stop at Ace Hardware on the way home, pay cash, and walkout with an M4 no questions asked. You know, a little concept called freedom.

You should be able to stop and buy a machine gun.

You either believe that the  “being necessary to the security of a free State” means that “The People” may need arms to protect themselves against an out of control government or you don’t. If that is true a group with machine guns have an obvious advantage over those limited to semi-autos or magazine capacity.  Of course the whole “Nuclear Weapons” issue is in play also.

[Omega]

11 minutes ago, btq96r said:

Concur on all that. 

I just think we need to do some self-reflection on things instead of always pointing to other root causes when a shooting happens.  We can be honest enough to say access to guns and accessories does play a big, if not the biggest enabling role in mass shootings.  We can then in the same breath also say, that's the assumed risk of freedom so we can have a population ready to fight their own government if it ever becomes oppressive enough or disregards the process of law.  A lot of people on all sides of the debate are uncomfortable with that second part, I've noticed.

I think you are correct in that it is the price of freedom, but the general public will not see it that way.  Even with examples such as Venezuela, they can't fathom a government getting out of control.  I wish we would just get these folks to understand that weapons of war is exactly what the 2A is about.  Each time a mass shooting happens it is always the scary black rifle they try and go after, when in Chicago, hand guns take more life in a given week than most of these mass shootings.  I am also tired of blaming gun owners for staunchly fighting all these proposed gun laws, because we all know that criminals could care less about any of them, and it is us that will be the most impacted. 

[GlockSpock]

7 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

You should be able to stop and buy a machine gun.

You either believe that the  “being necessary to the security of a free State” means that “The People” may need arms to protect themselves against an out of control government or you don’t. If that is true a group with machine guns have an obvious advantage over those limited to semi-autos or magazine capacity.  Of course the whole “Nuclear Weapons” issue is in play also.

I said M4 because they are automatic

[AuEagle]

Can anyone cite for me where any of these gun control laws no matter how common or sensible have stopped a mass shooting or any shooting/murder?

Seems all these laws do is handicap honest, legitimate gun owners & get innocents killed.

Edited August 6, 2019 by AuEagle

[Erik88]

17 minutes ago, btq96r said:

We can be honest enough to say access to guns and accessories does play a big, if not the biggest enabling role in mass shootings. 

I think you're correct but I cannot think of a way to stop this without infringing on everyone. Unless you were to ban all guns, and confiscate every gun from every household, this will never stop. Even then, you'd only find maybe half of all guns out there, at best. 

I think where we screw up is that we always blame "mental illness" but fail to actually do anything about it such as additional funding. The same people calling this mental illness suddenly get very defensive and start screaming about "socialism" if you mention funding these programs. It's pretty clear we need to create more programs for people that need help. This is going to cost money.

[E4 No More]

For those of you wanting to pound on Trump, he ain't the only one: https://www.foxnews.com/media/sen-toomey-says-background-check-loopholes-must-be-closed-wont-back-assault-weapons-ban

While I understand those that don't want to budge an inch, the reality is that either you budge a little or society will force you to budge a lot.

[DaveTN]

15 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

I said M4 because they are automatic

But M4’s are for sissies. I was thinking of something more effective.

[DaveTN]

16 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

Can anyone cite for me where any of these gun control laws no matter how common or sensible have stopped a mass shooting or any shooting/murder?

Of course not. But then again you don’t know. TBI puts out numbers on how many people have been refused. Did those refusals do any good? We have no way of knowing. When a cops stops a DUI; does he save an innocent family? He will never know, and we have no way of knowing.

[GlockSpock]

9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

But M4’s are for sissies. I was thinking of something more effective.

Maybe. I just want something I can afford to shoot.

[OLDNEWBIE]

2 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Is that really a risk we want to take? What if they vote yes? That is a no win situation. If it passes we now have universal background checks. If it doesn't pass you get no wall and no immigration reform.  I guess that is great negotiation... 

Not sure he said UBCs or just stronger Backgrounds but the Dems won't budge an inch to make Trump look good on anything. Dont worry.

[DaveTN]

23 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Maybe. I just want something I can afford to shoot.

I'm guessing that leaves out nuclear weapons for you?

[GlockSpock]

23 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I'm guessing that leaves out nuclear weapons for you?

Exactly.

[Chucktshoes]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Chuck you know better. I believe we should be able to have machine guns, suppressors, SBR’s, and no government requirement for a carry permit or training of any kind. I’m discussing what going on the news, the thoughts of the people I know, and my WAG’s about how the courts will rule.

I also think you know I don’t like Trump as a person. But if people just whine and complain (or post pictures) without having an alternative; they are just a whiner and complainer with cartoons and no answers.

That’s the way I’ve always taken you in the past, but your rhetoric as of late has shifted in tone in such a manner that it causes one to have doubts. 

If I am reading you incorrectly, that would be wonderfully nice, but I can only operate from the impression I’ve gotten from your posts supporting ERPOs, banning of various accessories and a vibe of resignation to the inevitable.

Whether it is from disdain for items or loophole exploitations, changing your views, or a belief in a lack of choice other than having to give something up, I would implore anyone dancing on this fence to take the lesson from Neville Chamberlain in that appeasement is never a winning strategy. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Chucktshoes
Poor and careless wording. My apologies, DaveTN.

[btq96r]

2 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I think you're correct but I cannot think of a way to stop this without infringing on everyone. Unless you were to ban all guns, and confiscate every gun from every household, this will never stop. Even then, you'd only find maybe half of all guns out there, at best.  

I think where we screw up is that we always blame "mental illness" but fail to actually do anything about it such as additional funding. The same people calling this mental illness suddenly get very defensive and start screaming about "socialism" if you mention funding these programs. It's pretty clear we need to create more programs for people that need help. This is going to cost money.

There isn't a way to stop it without infringing and a lot of it in a heavy handed manner to have any effect. 

I think we blame mental illness in the absence of true mental illness.  A lot of these shooters are perfectly sound of mind when they open fire, that mind is just demented in a way that isn't a clinical issue, but rather a reflection of character.  There is no easy solution to any of this, and we (at least for now, anyway) have decided that the risk is worth the personal right of being able to keep and bear arms is still in place. 

[beebee233]

5 minutes ago, btq96r said:

 

I think we blame mental illness in the absence of true mental illness. 

A lot of these shooters are perfectly sound of mind when they open fire, that mind is just demented in a way that isn't a clinical issue

I'm lost.......

Again.....

[Grayfox54]

Mental illness for sure. But, I think its more a lack of morality. Young people today have a very skewed idea of right and wrong. Parents have failed to teach them, schools are nothing more than liberal training centers, religion is a thing of the past. Good jobs are hard to find, many college degrees are almost worthless. Many young people in this country have lost hope. They see no real future for themselves. They simply quit caring.  

Edited August 6, 2019 by Grayfox54

[Erich]

43 minutes ago, btq96r said:

There isn't a way to stop it without infringing and a lot of it in a heavy handed manner to have any effect. 

I think we blame mental illness in the absence of true mental illness.  A lot of these shooters are perfectly sound of mind when they open fire, that mind is just demented in a way that isn't a clinical issue, but rather a reflection of character.

Actually, they are straight up crazy. They suffer from classic disorders. Textbook. Antisocial Personality Disorder / Psychopathy

The problem is those are not illegal or give grounds to commit without overt signs you are a danger.

Totally agree, folks would not be willing to submit to the personal freedom infringement to ever identify those effected.

 

[Erich]

4 hours ago, GlockSpock said:

I said M4 because they are automatic

Hey....I got robbed. Can I send mine back to Colt and ask them to put in the missing parts

[Erich]

4 hours ago, DaveTN said:

But M4’s are for sissies. I was thinking of something more effective.

Says the guy who wont put the 50 drum on his cause it would be too heavy....

 

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

10 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Mental illness for sure. But, I think its more a lack of morality. Young people today have a very skewed idea of right and wrong. Parents have failed to teach them, schools are nothing more than liberal training centers, religion is a thing of the past. Good jobs are hard to find, many college degrees are almost worthless. Many young people in this country have lost hope. They see no real future for themselves. They simply quit caring.  

This dummy cared a lot. Too much.

This guy had adopted the religion of the left, doomed planet due to man's overpopulation. 

According to his manifesto he was trying to save the resources of the US and Texas by killing Hispanic illegal aliens to encourage recycling? Or something like that.

If you trust the media to explain his ramblings you'd think he was obsessed with Trump and the border alone.

What I got from it was he was a nationalist environmentalist.

Not a cookie cutter wrapped up in a neat bow white MAGA hat wearing white supremacist stereotype. 

All we are getting is fake news. I'm not a fan of publishing a mass murderers manifesto but this guys crime is being used to smear a President.

It needs to be seen.