flat-shooting centerfire rifle cartridge

[Smith]

OK, I want ANYONE to quantify why one cartridge, any cartridge is THE BEST. I promise there will be an equal number of people to suggest another. I mean come on, that's just the way the world works. It's like me telling you Ford makes the best all around truck, you may agree, but just as many other people are going to say Chevy or Dodge.

How many boxes of 30-30 have been sold over the years? I'd say a whole lot. Does that make it the best cartridge? We're not talking about a popularity contest here.

By MY ballistics tables, and hey they may be wrong, there are a number of cartridges that are flater than the .270. For instance, .270 WTHBY Mag, 7mmSTW, 7mmDakota, 7mm WTHBY Mag, The Lazzeroni 30's, and so on.

I have nothing against the .270, just seems you put a pretty bold blanket statement out there.

Of course it is opinion. Everything subjective is.

[nightrunner]

keep in mind that im not concerned with over kill or preservation of the animal, i dont care that if you shot say a deer at 300yards with it center-mass that it split the animal in 2 separate pieces. i have hunting rifles like a .30-06 and a .223. looking for something to do more damage, think long distance(up to 400-500 yards) sniping in a SHTF situation. but want a commercialy available cartridge. heck, .50bmg does the damage i want and can certaintly do it at the range i want but from what i read its not exactly accurate as other cartridges. also .50's tend to be very heavy and extremely high in recoil

about the .264 rem mag, does it really shoot that flat? the remington ballistics tables showed it to be about on par with the other hunting cartridges.

this is not about the all around best cartridge. the best hunting cartridge wont destroy the animal but will drop it at distance.

[Guest Centennial]

Take a look at the 257 Weatherby. Flat, fast, and accurate. It also comes in an affordable, quality rifle- the Vanguard.

[nightrunner]

should i be looking for a cartridge in the 3500-4000+ fps range at the muzzle, for it to be flat shooting?

[Guest Rando]

I've zeroed this rifle at 500 yrds. It remains zero at 700 yrds, but drops off at 1,000 yrds by about 2" to 4", or 1/4 MOA. The Unertl Hawk scope I have on the gun is perhaps not the best. My hunting is done in Colorado, Wyoming and Utah, where engaging game is usually at 300 to 600 yrds and the rifle and scope are sufficient for the task

1MOA (Minute of Angle), equals 1" at 100 yards, multiply that by 10 and you have 1,000 yards. so 1MOA at 1,000 yards equals 10". a 2"to4" drop at 1,000 yards is roughly under 1/4 moa. I averaged my results. Sorry if this was confusing.

OOOWWWWW my head hurts Just say at 1000 yds I aim at the crow in the tree behind him for a lung shot;) Hey while we are on the subject I just bought a Savage model 110 7mm Rem. mag and it came with a box of Remington Core-Lokt 175gr bullets does anyone have one and what are the favorite bullets and wieght for yours, and what kind of drop do they have.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

OOOWWWWW my head hurts Just say at 1000 yds I aim at the crow in the tree behind him for a lung shot;) Hey while we are on the subject I just bought a Savage model 110 7mm Rem. mag and it came with a box of Remington Core-Lokt 175gr bullets does anyone have one and what are the favorite bullets and wieght for yours, and what kind of drop do they have.

I have a 110 7mag... great shooting rifle! Of all the ammo I've tried, it shoots best with 150 grain Winchester Silvertips and Power Points. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to really get out and document how it drops out past 300 yards... the longest I shoot regularly is 100 yards. I've done some "practical" shooting with it out in a field, having a friend go drop a target and have me guess the range and shoot it. Based on published ballistics data, I should have a point-blank range of about 325 yards... maximum rise or drop in that range should be about 4 inches, enough to still be inside a deer's chest cavity. Longest shot I've taken with it in the field is about 150 yards.

I'd stick with lighter bullets if you're going to be hunting whitetails around here... no need for a big heavy bullet for those. 140 and 150 grains will give you a good, flat trajectory.

[Guest Rando]

Dang I saw three or four boxes of those at the last show and let them get away. I am going to try and do some testing when I get a chance,I have a big field behind my house just over 300yards across and around 8 or 9 hundred corner to corner and I have a few more to work on as well so I will have to stock up on some ammo. I got mine from my brother dont think he ever shot it but he didnt have it to long as he had bought it from a friend. He said his friend told him it was a tack driver but doesnt everyone say that O'coarse I really mean it about mine:D

[deerslayer]

I've zeroed this rifle at 500 yrds. It remains zero at 700 yrds, but drops off at 1,000 yrds by about 2" to 4", or 1/4 MOA. The Unertl Hawk scope I have on the gun is perhaps not the best. My hunting is done in Colorado, Wyoming and Utah, where engaging game is usually at 300 to 600 yrds and the rifle and scope are sufficient for the task

1MOA (Minute of Angle), equals 1" at 100 yards, multiply that by 10 and you have 1,000 yards. so 1MOA at 1,000 yards equals 10". a 2"to4" drop at 1,000 yards is roughly under 1/4 moa. I averaged my results. Sorry if this was confusing.

Let me get this straight. With a 500 yard zero, your .264 is still dead-on at 700 and only drops 2"-4" at 1000? I haven't consulted any ballistic tables and I know the .264 Win Mag is a flat-shooting round, but I find this a little hard to believe. To zero at 500 yards, the round would have to be way high at 200-300, then after dropping on the zero at 500, it seems it would continue slowing down and therefore, continue dropping. To remained zeroed at 700, the bullet would have to stop dropping at 500, and follow a straight path for 200 yards. Then it starts dropping again? I'm no ballistics professor, but something doesn't add up. Just sayin'

[Curiousgb]

I ran a hypothetical through a ballistic calculator. Assuming a velocity of 3000 and a 140 projectile with a BC of .535.

With a 500 yard zero. It would be almost 9 inches high at 100. And 172 inches drop from 500 to 1000. There would be a 42 inch drop from 500 to 700.

[Guest Mugster]

OOOWWWWW my head hurts Just say at 1000 yds I aim at the crow in the tree behind him for a lung shot;) Hey while we are on the subject I just bought a Savage model 110 7mm Rem. mag and it came with a box of Remington Core-Lokt 175gr bullets does anyone have one and what are the favorite bullets and wieght for yours, and what kind of drop do they have.

I "stock" 3 bullet weights. 100hp for range plinking/groundpig. 160gr btsp for hunting. And a 168gr bthp match. All sierra bullets.

The 100 grainer runs about 3400-3500 and shoot's about a 2-3" group at 300 yards out of my rifle. Thats the most accurate bullet I've shot. The 168 matchking is not quite as accurate, but it works ok on the 600 yard line. I've also used it at 450 for bowling pins. The 160 works about as good as anything for deer, and its plenty accurate as well.

The problem is, the 120-140gr hunting bullets are better served in 7mm-08 or 7x57 mauser. They blow up explosively at magnum velocity. The nosler partitions are too tough for whitetail. They just blow through. Thats imo.

The 100 grainer will vaporize a groundhog.

For all 3 bullet weights, I set the scope at nothing and have the number of clicks set on range cards. I took the 100 grainer out to 400, and the heavier bullets out to 600. I print off a little card and laminate it, with bullet drop from the muzzle with your sight height figured in, clicks from zero to bring it dead on, and velocity.

For instance, the 168 at 600 yards looks like this:

81.82::147::2348

That way if your scope is set at 300 yards and you need to shoot with no adjustment at 600, you'd take the drop at 600, subtract from it the drop at 300, and thats your hold over in inches. I also try to have the fat part of the scope adjustment at around 400 yards. I use this rifle for long range game shooting, and 400, possibly 500 yards is about the limit I'd take even a perfect shot.

I use a program named saballistics for the calculations. I find that it is accurate enough for my needs.

[Curiousgb]

I have had very good luck with Nosler 160grn Accubond's in my Encore 7mm mag.

[Guest Terry J]

Take a look at the 257 Weatherby. Flat, fast, and accurate. It also comes in an affordable, quality rifle- the Vanguard.

I second this!! although i prefer the mark V.

[DaveS]

I'm rather fond of my 7mm/08. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably go 25-06. It's mostly a matter of choice, and "flat shooting" is a relative term I think.

Dave

[Guest Terry J]

I have a 7mm/08 as well and its normally what i use.

[Guest jackdog]

My favorite is the 25.06.

25.06 is indeed a flat shooter I would second that.

[Guest gcrookston]

Let me get this straight. With a 500 yard zero, your .264 is still dead-on at 700 and only drops 2"-4" at 1000? I haven't consulted any ballistic tables and I know the .264 Win Mag is a flat-shooting round, but I find this a little hard to believe. To zero at 500 yards, the round would have to be way high at 200-300, then after dropping on the zero at 500, it seems it would continue slowing down and therefore, continue dropping. To remained zeroed at 700, the bullet would have to stop dropping at 500, and follow a straight path for 200 yards. Then it starts dropping again? I'm no ballistics professor, but something doesn't add up. Just sayin'

Deerslayer, I was having a few beers when I looked at my dope book and a few more when I responded.. with the cross hairs(+) @ center mass @ 500 yrds with my Unertl Hawk, I'm zero. I need to shoot the top of my + @ under 200 yrds. At 700 + is minus 1/4-1/3 and 1000 1/4 - 3/4 bottom. This would be approximately 12-18" by guesstimation per hundred yrds after 500 yrds using factory ammo. A friend of mine loaded up some "hotter" rounds for me one time, at the max of whatever recommended charts he was looking at, but after the first two disintegrated not much after leaving the barrel, I threw the rest away. Sober tonight and that's what my dope book says.

[deerslayer]

Deerslayer, I was having a few beers when I looked at my dope book and a few more when I responded.. with the cross hairs(+) @ center mass @ 500 yrds with my Unertl Hawk, I'm zero. I need to shoot the top of my + @ under 200 yrds. At 700 + is minus 1/4-1/3 and 1000 1/4 - 3/4 bottom. This would be approximately 12-18" by guesstimation per hundred yrds after 500 yrds using factory ammo. A friend of mine loaded up some "hotter" rounds for me one time, at the max of whatever recommended charts he was looking at, but after the first two disintegrated not much after leaving the barrel, I threw the rest away. Sober tonight and that's what my dope book says.

LOL, that makes sense. I wasn't about to bust out the BS smiley--not sure if you remember, but we actually met at Joe's, and I had too much respect for you for that. I knew something wasn't right, though.

[323ssplt]

+1 for drinking alot........

-1 for doing it while shooting.......

I'm not shooting right now soooooooooooooo...................

As to my 257 weatherby, 6.5-284 norma or......338 lapua. All VERY flat shooting rounds. As to availability...257 weatherby hands down.

[323ssplt]

Deerslayer, I was having a few beers when I looked at my dope book and a few more when I responded.. with the cross hairs(+) @ center mass @ 500 yrds with my Unertl Hawk, I'm zero. I need to shoot the top of my + @ under 200 yrds. At 700 + is minus 1/4-1/3 and 1000 1/4 - 3/4 bottom. This would be approximately 12-18" by guesstimation per hundred yrds after 500 yrds using factory ammo. A friend of mine loaded up some "hotter" rounds for me one time, at the max of whatever recommended charts he was looking at, but after the first two disintegrated not much after leaving the barrel, I threw the rest away. Sober tonight and that's what my dope book says.

Gcrookston...please correct me if I am wrong, and I probably am...the drinking thing again...but last time I looked through a Unertl scope...fixed 10x on an M40A! the bottom of the crosshairs were approximately 5 mils south of center...at approximately 3 MOA per mil that equates to 15 MOA...and if you are 1/4 to 3/4 OFF???? bottom that would add another 5 MOA for a grand total of 20 MOA off at 1000 yards.....am I correct or totally misunderstanding. I am NOT attacking you at all please don't misunderstand....I am just trying to follow what you are saying....Please clarify to a younger.....drunker.....guy.

Edited February 12, 2009 by 323ssplt

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I don't know about what others say, but my .264WM is the flattest I've ever encountered. Roughly 700 yrds before a drop of about 0.25 moa at 1,000.

May I kindly ask what load your shooting.. bullet? Are you using factory or rolling your own?

[Guest gcrookston]

Deer & 323.... Ya Deer, I rarely BS, but am often mistaken.... I must have took a quick look at my notes and saw 1/4 without reading the rest of it, I think... Blackhook Ale is my most common mistake of choice.

323, the Unertl Hawk is a 4x scope without much of a field of view and fine cross without mil-dots (which kind of explains why they haven't made it for 50 years). If you look at my original post on this thread, you'll see it was a typical sporting scope made in the 1950's attached to my mildly sporterized pre-64 Model 70 of the same vintage. I would throw it away, except I spent too much money at Premier Reticle having it over-hauled and as most all game I've engaged in my home state is 400-600 yards, it does the job quite well.

My guesstimations in my dope book for this rifle when measuring from the "+" to the edge of view (such as "1/4 to 3/4"), are the distances between these two points and quite frankly, I could be very wrong as to what the actual drop is as I reference it against my 308 and 300 winmag that have different scopes and different ballistics.

As a point of reference, my 308 bolt gun with a Premier Reticle prepped Leupold 6.5x20 reads in my dope book to adjust the scope all the way to the end and hold on the bottom mil for center mass at 1,000 yards. That would be some 50 or 60 clicks? plus another 12 MOA?

Edited February 12, 2009 by gcrookston

[Guest gcrookston]

May I kindly ask what load your shooting.. bullet? Are you using factory or rolling your own?

100 gr. soft point factory. The book says they run about 3,700 fps... But if you have a friend load some for you, they run about 250 yrds into little bits. Hate to say it, but I still have most of a box of Hornady that I purchased in the early 1990's.

Edited February 12, 2009 by gcrookston

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Trajectory Input Data Ballistic Coefficient: 0.358 G1 Caliber: 0.264 in Bullet Weight: 100.0 gr Muzzle Velocity: 3700.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Corrected Pressure: Yes Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No Output Data Elevation: 8.625 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s Maximum PBR: 420 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 359 yd Range of Maximum Height: 201 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 1410.1 ft•lbs Sectional Density: 0.205 lb/in² Calculated Table Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA) 0-1.5***0.0***3710.93.3243057.30.0000.0***1006.25.90.70.63395.13.0412559.00.08514.914.220010.95.22.71.33101.92.7782136.10.17731.214.930011.93.86.32.02827.82.5331775.30.27849.015.64008.62.111.72.82570.12.3021466.40.39068.616.4500-0.0-0.019.03.62326.52.0841201.70.51290.217.2600-15.0-2.428.74.62096.31.878975.60.648114.118.2700-38.0-5.241.15.61879.81.684784.50.799140.719.2800-70.9-8.556.66.81678.71.504625.60.968170.420.3900-116.2-12.375.78.01495.61.340496.61.158203.721.61000-177.0-16.998.99.41334.61.195395.41.370241.223.012 Feb 2009 01:12:39, Calculated by JBM[jbmtraj-5.0.cgi]

According to the JBM calculator.. using a 100gr spire point flat base bullet made by hornady that if it is zeroed at 500 yards.. your drop would be 5.2 MOA (38 inches) and at 1000 yards 16.9 MOA (177.0 inches)

I ran this on a G1 platform, which is more attuned this type of bullet.. if it were a VLD bullet, then it would call for the G7 platform.

Hope that this helps.

[Guest gcrookston]

According to the JBM calculator.. using a 100gr spire point flat base bullet made by hornady that if it is zeroed at 500 yards.. your drop would be 5.2 MOA (38 inches) and at 1000 yards 16.9 MOA (177.0 inches)

I ran this on a G1 platform, which is more attuned this type of bullet.. if it were a VLD bullet, then it would call for the G7 platform.

Hope that this helps.

Thanks.

Edited February 12, 2009 by gcrookston

[Guest Mugster]

According to the JBM calculator.. using a 100gr spire point flat base bullet made by hornady that if it is zeroed at 500 yards.. your drop would be 5.2 MOA (38 inches) and at 1000 yards 16.9 MOA (177.0 inches)

I ran this on a G1 platform, which is more attuned this type of bullet.. if it were a VLD bullet, then it would call for the G7 platform.

Hope that this helps.

Thanks.

I use G1 on flat base anything and G5 on most boattails. The G7 calcs are too optimistic imo, at least on saballistics. I didn't compare it to JBM to see if they calc out the same. I also shoot cheap bullets