Beretta guys….school me.

[DaveTN]

Okay, since they make the 92G and the military M9 there, am I safe in assuming I can get a 92 marked Gallatin? I don’t want to pay hundreds extra for that marking as in the 92G Tennessee gun.

So you Beretta guys school me. What’s the difference in an M9 and a 92? I just want the Gallatin marking in the 92 style and don’t care about any military stuff.

Also, If I’m buying a blue/black gun, I want it to be a high polish blue/black; not some crummy matte or painted finish. Does Beretta do that at Gallatin on a standard gun?

This would be a range toy that would get used. I’m not going to try to carry it, and I’m not looking for a collectable.

Which Beretta do I need?

[Esko 270]

I am going to be off topic but it was a big deal for me and I thought I should share. I wanted the M9A3 marked Gallatin and got it. About eight or nine hundred rounds in the gun completely locked up. Turns out the rails on the frame were the lug on the bottom of the barrel rides were off somehow, they curled in and locked up the barrel. I sent it back and a month later they sent me a brand new gun but from Italy. My case may have been a one-off but it's definitely something to look out for or keep an eye on it least. 

[GlockSpock]

Didn't I read some article somewhere stating that Gallatin wasn't proficient enough to produce certain models and they were moving certain lines back to Italy?

Between the M9 and 92FS, there is this:

https://www.snipercountry.com/beretta-m9-vs-92fs/

 

[Erich]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:38 AM, DaveTN said:

Also, If I’m buyinga blue/black gun, I want it to be a high polish blue/black; not some crummy matte or painted finish.

 

No need to get into any of the other stuff, you are done right there. All the black 92's currently offered are done in Bruniton finish, which is a matte black paint over a parkerized surface finish.

With military and police in mind, they didnt want a reflective surface. While some folks may like flashy shiny finishes, the last think you want is to get light reflecting of your flashy gun letting the bad guys now where they need to drop their fire.

[suspiciousmind]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:59 PM, Erich said:

No need to get into any of the other stuff, you are done right there. All the black 92's currently offered are done in Bruniton finish, which is a matte black paint over a parkerized surface finish.

With military and police in mind, they didnt want a reflective surface. While some folks may like flashy shiny finishes, the last think you want is to get light reflecting of your flashy gun letting the bad guys now where they need to drop their fire.

I bought my 92FS new about 6 years ago. It doesn’t look matte to me? 

[Erich]

9 hours ago, suspiciousmind said:

I bought my 92FS new about 6 years ago. It doesn’t look matte to me? 

I imagine one could pick a term that resonates for them to describe it. Its possibly a bit subjective. I don't know what works for most when something if not flat and not shiny, but inbetween but more toward the less reflective side. That assumes of course you have wiped the oil off and are looking at the painted surface

If one is fond of house paints...its not semi-gloss, maybe between satin and eggshell?. Seems wrong for a gun,, so I like matte since it has some reflection, but some interpret that to mean flat.

What works for you, how would you describe it?

[DaveTN]

High Polish blue might be subjective or not really understood by some of you younger guys. To us older guys; its not. It’s the polished blue finish S&W put on revolvers for many years (and I think you can still get). It’s the hi-gloss blue on the Belgium Browning Hi-Powers from the 70’s. Or the high polish blue of the Remington 870 WingMasters. When you hold one in your hands you will be impressed.

However, from the responses if I what I want is still made; it isn’t made here. So I’ll quit looking.

On 5/22/2019 at 9:28 AM, Esko 270 said:

I am going to be off topic but it was a big deal for me and I thought I should share. I wanted the M9A3 marked Gallatin and got it. About eight or nine hundred rounds in the gun completely locked up. Turns out the rails on the frame were the lug on the bottom of the barrel rides were off somehow, they curled in and locked up the barrel. I sent it back and a month later they sent me a brand new gun but from Italy. My case may have been a one-off but it's definitely something to look out for or keep an eye on it least. 

 

On 5/22/2019 at 10:46 AM, GlockSpock said:

Didn't I read some article somewhere stating that Gallatin wasn't proficient enough to produce certain models and they were moving certain lines back to Italy?

So we can’t make a quality Beretta in Tennessee.. WTH?? Save that for someone that will believe it.

Also I gotta say… as a Tennessee gun community we are falling down on the job. What’s it been 3 years ago that one of the worlds largest gun makers opened a factory here where they aren’t simply bolting together guns from parts made overseas (as some that want to claim American Made) but are actually machining and manufacturing guns here?? And you Beretta guys seem to be clueless about what’s going on there. 

If that was a Smith & Wesson facility I would at the very least know what they make there and would probably have all the 411 on everything that goes on there. I’d be at that facility and if that didn’t work I’d be finding some people that work there and taking them out for some beers. Don’t you guys in Gallatin drink beer?? 

 

[billt]

I have a Beretta / Wilson Combat Brigadier Model 92 that is Gallatin marked. It was expensive, and is a great shooting / handling weapon. I'm not sure where the standard Beretta 92's are made.

[GlockSpock]

36 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

High Polish blue might be subjective or not really understood by some of you younger guys. To us older guys; its not. It’s the polished blue finish S&W put on revolvers for many years (and I think you can still get). It’s the hi-gloss blue on the Belgium Browning Hi-Powers from the 70’s. Or the high polish blue of the Remington 870 WingMasters. When you hold one in your hands you will be impressed.

However, from the responses if I what I want is still made; it isn’t made here. So I’ll quit looking.

 

So we can’t make a quality Beretta in Tennessee.. WTH?? Save that for someone that will believe it.

Also I gotta say… as a Tennessee gun community we are falling down on the job. What’s it been 3 years ago that one of the worlds largest gun makers opened a factory here where they aren’t simply bolting together guns from parts made overseas (as some that want to claim American Made) but are actually machining and manufacturing guns here?? And you Beretta guys seem to be clueless about what’s going on there. 

If that was a Smith & Wesson facility I would at the very least know what they make there and would probably have all the 411 on everything that goes on there. I’d be at that facility and if that didn’t work I’d be finding some people that work there and taking them out for some beers. Don’t you guys in Gallatin drink beer?? 

 

On 12/13/2017 at 6:52 AM, DaveTN said:

If I’m not mistaken the gun in that thread was made in Italy, not MD or TN. They all will have ACKK.MD stamped on them because that is the importer, but I don’t think the ones made in MD are marked “Made in Italy”.

You should never paint a gun…ever, no matter who you are. But I think they may be getting the high number of returns by the military mixed up with the 1911’s.

https://rifleshooter.com/2017/04/cerakotes-big-fail-usmc-returns-cerakote-m45a1s-to-colt/

If Beretta had a quality issue here I’m sure they would fix it; not move production back to Italy. But I could be wrong.

The military is replacing the M9, correct? Wouldn’t that probably be the cause for any change in production?

Hey, I was just going off of memory.

[Erich]

As previously stated, OP was done based on his requirement for high polish since that is not how any standard modern 92 variants come. Italy or no.

As far as Gallatin QC. I dont see it relagated to them. MD has issues from what I've seen and even sent back (92G-SD around 2015) and a recent repair. Its more the fact that the current workforce and standards are not what they were many places in the US.  In Beretta's case they are being most let down by the machining, whoever or where ever they are made. And that most of their assembly folks seem to have marginal skills using a hammer and punch and like to miss and damage the slides.

The current barrel and locking blocks are causing frame damage from rough or incomplete rail cuts that are not chamfered or dehorned. Then slide assemblies forced into place with the barrel out of alignment to the frame rails damaging the aluminum frame rails with heavy chips dragged thru the gun on test fire. That is simple carelessness in assembly, but its also driven by changed in production standards and through put requirements.

I got my Volunteer 92G and it was flawless with great build quality, but my 92 Compact L bought at the same time was replaced by Beretta for the aforementioned bad barrel maching (MD issue, not Gallatin). 

That said, I've sent back two S&W revolvers with overclocked barrels (seriously how hard is that) and a 329PD with a sprung yolk that had the the ejector bushing grinding out the back of the frame. Countless issue with Sigs, I would not buy either a S&W revolver or Sig without hands on and heavy inspection first.

If anyone compares a modern Colt M4 to one from just a few years ago....you may be surprised unless you got very lucky. They are grinding extensions to solve feeding problems as well cheaper bolts lacking the level of machining their old ones had, among other things.  It's BS.

For me, the poster child for poor or non-existent QC while banking on marketing, IS Sig. Hands down. And its gotten worse with their pursuit of .mil contracts. Flame suit on for you P365 bandwagoning first time Siggers.

There is a reason why folks want Italian Beretta's and German Sigs.

Here is the thing, and its really frowned on here, but folks are having a problem accepting some new realities. Cost reduction is king. Production standards are demanding more volume, less time, and reduced QC as cost cutting measures. And it seems to hit harder in the US. Hard pill to swallow, current American made is not what it once was. And its not 100% the workforce, but their management and bottom line focus. From both profit motivation and simply trying to stay competitive. 

I want to malign the 18-30 years olds that do the work, I do think its a factor based on a more indifferent attitude, but hard to say if that is the gen versus bad workplace restraints that are causing it.

 

 

[bud]

.

Edited September 20, 2019 by bud

[Erich]

33 minutes ago, bud said:

The root cause of the poor QC in gun manufacturing, and all other modern manufacturing IMO, is total lack of discernment from American consumers. Gimme gimme gimme, with no concern for quality, longevity, or sustainability of products consumed. Ya get what you pay for, except when you get less than you pay for. Stupid American consumers.

Excellent point. No doubt why you can see the consumer end suffer when they move toward military contract supply as in the Sig case. You see it all the time in gun community, where some openly chastise and discourage those that bring up QC issues on new with the 'its a tool and should look used' thinking.  No reminding them what resale is on something 100% vs 75% or that here is no manly looking patina price appreciation.

When they start giving me guns for free...I'll look passed defects too!

 

 

[DaveTN]

52 minutes ago, bud said:

The root cause of the poor QC in gun manufacturing, and all other modern manufacturing IMO, is total lack of discernment from American consumers. Gimme gimme gimme, with no concern for quality, longevity, or sustainability of products consumed. Ya get what you pay for, except when you get less than you pay for. Stupid American consumers.

I’m a retired Toolmaker that has worked in a lot of different types of manufacturing over the years. Machine Tools, Aircraft, Automotive, etc. My last gig was in Quality, programming CMM’s for First Article Inspection of aerospace parts. I could rattle on for hours about quality and manufacturing, and American made Us Vs. Them, etc.

But I’ll keep it short. The lack of quality is because of the lack of quality….period.

I’ve seen the Beretta issues blamed on everything from the lack of good machinists in Tennessee to the literacy rate in Tennessee, to the pay scale. The lack of good machinist’s excuse in this state is just silly, and the literacy rate excuse is obviously from someone that has a low literacy rate. The pay scale could possibly keep them from getting good Machinists, but it wouldn’t keep them from making goods Machinists.

Nope, those are all BS excuses. If Gallatin is making bad guns or has quality issues; it’s because Gallatin’s Quality inspectors and Quality Manger are not doing their job. And that means their overseer, either Accokeek or Italy is not paying attention.

Military contracts aren’t based on quality. They are politics; pure and simple.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt and guess that they had some growing pains they are getting under control. Let’s hope so anyway.

As far as you get what you pay for…absolutely. Whether its guns or legal advice. Low cost guns have a place and there is no shortage of people that will buy them. They want desperately for them to be good. Same with legal counsel; many can’t afford the lawyer that has the contacts to get them off and they have to settle for the one that can make the best deal they can afford.

[gregintenn]

I'm not sure you can get a high polish blue 92 Beretta. The ones I've seen appear to be covered in grill paint.

You give up on the 39 Smith?

Edited August 29, 2019 by gregintenn

[DaveTN]

15 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I'm not sure you can get a high polish blue 92 Beretta. The ones I've seen appear to be covered in grill paint.

It looks like my chances of getting a 92 that is high polish blue, has a Gallatin roll mark, and works the way it is supposed to; is slim.

I’ve seen some of those Tennessee Special ones. But I don’t want to pay extra for one from here, especially if it was made by a bad Machinist with a low literacy rate.  

 

15 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

You give up on the 39 Smith?

Nah, I’m still keeping an eye out. Yah know what…?? They had those all over GB and Arms list  for $350, $450, that were really nice, well cared for. So, I decide;...I’d do that. All of a sudden since Dave wants one; they are $800…$900…No thanks.

(Just kidding...they still have some priced reasonably on GB. I might have to go that route. )

I have several things I’m going to post to try to do some trading. I just have to get around to doing the photography.

[bud]

.

Edited September 20, 2019 by bud

[DaveTN]

4 minutes ago, bud said:

Meh, whatever Dave.

Manufacturers produce a minimum quality that will get them their desired ROI.

Consumers' demand for quality is what drives qc. 

American consumers want it quick and cheap and thats what they'll receive.

At some point there's a backlash from the consumer, and then you ramp up qc.  The profits are all found at the margins.

 Nonsense, Bud

There is a big gap between bottom feeders and gun snobs. There are people that still take pride in what they do and what they make.

Some American consumers want it quick and cheap and some American consumers want quality; usually only a price tag separates the two. There are many manufacturers available for both.

[Erich]

26 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

But I’ll keep it short. The lack of quality is because of the lack of quality….period.

Gallatin’s Quality inspectors and Quality Manger are not doing their job. And that means their overseer, either Accokeek or Italy is not paying attention.

Military contracts aren’t based on quality. They are politics; pure and simple.

 

It sounds like we are all saying the same thing? The biggest difference is there you are making an assumption of 100% QC based on a different product line and experience.

Nothing is simply because it is, its allowed and happens from by cause.  In this case the finger was squarely pointed at management. Blaming the workers would assume the policy and expectation is known. But they are not cutting cost and upping throughput while keeping or adding more QC with an increased defect rate...that's for damn sure. 

The problem is every wants to assume they demand high QC on every unit. No one is willing to accept defect rates are allowed to be higher now. And they do not look at every unit thru the process. Either way, management decisions (also their fail for any non compliance).

MD has the same issues, not sure why they are seen (today) as better than Gallatin (today). Its a US corporate issue, not isolated to TN.

Consumers do drive expectation, or places go out of business. Unless you can make your widgets cheap enough. Its also why products adapt to consumer requests.

 

Where is anyone saying military contracts ARE based on quality??  You perhaps missed the context and meaning they have a negative impact. The only thing that said is the consumer end suffers when a manufacturer also pursues military contracts. For those that don't follow...

Make more stuff, faster, quicker. What happens? Less QC (cut corners) to pump units to meet demand as they do not increase personnel and resources proportionally. They will try to get the cost per unit down as they sell to .mil at 1/3 the cost per unit compared to the consumer product. But .mil does not care about QC issues that prevent it from going bang typically, so now you tell QC to go to the lowest common denominator between consumer and the  military standard, so certain consumer side QC items go away.

Both FN and Sig consumer goods show the battle scars of the their military contracts. Colt was pretty good until their bankruptcy concerns. And are in decline sadly.

 

 

 

 

[Erich]

49 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I'm not sure you can get a high polish blue 92 Beretta. The ones I've seen appear to be covered in grill paint.

No such animal exists. The TN guns are no different than the other 92's. As previously mentioned, that grill paint is called Bruniton. Its pretty good stuff, wears well. The 92 I've put over 15k rounds thru in the last 25 years still looks pretty newish.

[gregintenn]

2 hours ago, Erich said:

No such animal exists. The TN guns are no different than the other 92's. As previously mentioned, that grill paint is called Bruniton. Its pretty good stuff, wears well. The 92 I've put over 15k rounds thru in the last 25 years still looks pretty newish.

It looks cheap to a classic gun enthusiast such as Dave or me.

[Erich]

I feel about the same with anything in FDE. Certain cosmetics are love or hate

[gregintenn]

1 minute ago, Erich said:

I feel about the same with anything in FDE. Certain cosmetics are love or hate

Google "Registered Magnum" or "Colt Diamondback". That's how handguns are supposed to be finished.

[Garufa]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Google "Registered Magnum" or "Colt Diamondback". That's how handguns are supposed to be finished.

I never cared all that much for Colt revolvers but that Royal Blue they had on Pythons and other snake guns was perfection, but then again so was the blueing on every Smith & Wesson until they started cutting costs resulting in black guns they called blue.

Proper blueing is becoming a lost art unless you pay dearly for it and there are only a couple of people in the country that can do it old school.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Garufa

[Erich]

I think its funny y'all dont think someone would  not know what a polished blued gun looks like because they would own a Beretta.

As entertaining as Dave's ramblings can be, I think he led you astray me thinks with that one crack missing that last posts where only in reference to how one would classify a Beretta finish. Forgot I had previously mentioned not shiny blue but a yucky paint. At his age....probably hard to remember things

For what its worth, I do own some of those fossil guns you guys are on about with that shiny blue finish, or whats left of it in a couple cases.

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, Erich said:

I think its funny y'all dont think someone would  not know what a polished blued gun looks like because they would own a Beretta.

As entertaining as Dave's ramblings can be, I think he led you astray me thinks with that one crack missing that last posts where only in reference to how one would classify a Beretta finish. Forgot I had previously mentioned not shiny blue but a yucky paint. At his age....probably hard to remember things

For what its worth, I do own some of those fossil guns you guys are on about with that shiny blue finish, or whats left of it in a couple cases.

Fossil? That hurts, man.