New TN CC requirements pass house and senate

[Dustbuster]

Minimal training for new CCP applicants bills just passed; nice but Id rather see them do more than hit a target at 25 feet:

Self-defense legislation House Bill 1264 /Senate Bill 705 have now officially passed both chambers of the Tennessee General Assembly.  This legislation will soon be sent to the desk of Governor Bill Lee for his signature. The NRA thanks Rep. Andy Holt and Sen. John Stevens for their leadership and commitment to preserving and protecting your rights in Tennessee’s. Senate Bill 705 /House Bill 1264, sponsored by Senator John Stevens and Representative Andy Holt, would create a new concealed carry permit in Tennessee that would make it more accessible for Tennesseans to exercise their right to self-defense.  The new permit will allow for concealed carry only and will not apply to higher education campuses.  Further, the training required in the bill can be a hunter education course or firearm safety course, and can be taken online.  By creating a new concealed carry permit, Tennesseans are able to choose which permit option is best for them and their lifestyle in order to exercise their constitutional right to self-defense.

[DaveTN]

Ha, Ha, Ha, It didn’t take long to get rid of that “No Fee” business. 

Here is the full text…

Quote

 

BILL SUMMARY

This bill renames the handgun carry permit that is available under present law as the "enhanced handgun carry permit" and creates a new "concealed handgun carry permit". The significant differences between an enhanced handgun carry permit and a concealed handgun carry permit are as follows:

(1) An enhanced handgun carry permit does not specify the manner in which a handgun must be carried. A concealed handgun carry permit will only authorize the holder to carry in a concealed manner;
(2) An applicant for an enhanced handgun carry permit must submit fingerprints, which are used by the TBI and FBI for criminal history background checks. An applicant for a concealed handgun carry permit will only be required to undergo a name-based criminal history record check;
(3) An applicant for an enhanced handgun carry permit must present a photo identification. An applicant for a concealed handgun carry permit may present either a photo identification or other proof satisfactory to the department of safety showing the person's identity and residency;
(4) An enhanced handgun carry permit must be issued on a wallet-sized laminated card and include, among other things, a color photograph of the permit holder. A concealed handgun carry permit may be issued as a letter to the applicant and may be issued without the applicant's photograph;
(5) Subject to certain exceptions for persons who obtain firearm training through the military, a police academy, or armed guard instruction courses, an applicant for an enhanced handgun carry permit must submit proof of the successful completion of a department approved handgun safety course within one year of the date of application. Instead of completing a department approved handgun safety course, an applicant for a concealed handgun carry permit will be required to demonstrate competence with a handgun, which may be accomplished by various forms of experience, including, but not limited to, completion of a hunter safety course, completion of a firearm safety course using instructors certified by the NRA or department of safety, military service, prior issuance of a carry permit, law enforcement or security training, or any other firearm training that the department of safety deems adequate;
(6) The application fee for an enhanced handgun carry permit is $100. There will not be an application fee for a concealed handgun carry permit;
(7) An enhanced handgun carry permit is valid for eight years. A concealed handgun carry permit will be valid for five years;
(8) An enhanced handgun carry permit holder who is within or on a public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway, or other similar public place is generally exempt from the present law prohibition against carrying weapons on any property owned, operated, or while in use by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. Such exemption will not apply to concealed handgun carry permit holders; and
(9) A local government may not prohibit an enhanced handgun carry permit holder from possessing a handgun on public property unless the local government provides a security system consisting of metal detectors and inspection by trained personnel for such property. A local government will not be required to provide metal detectors and security inspections in order to prohibit concealed handgun carry permit holders from possessing firearms on public property.

ON APRIL 30, 2019, THE HOUSE ADOPTED AMENDMENTS #2 AND #3 AND PASSED HOUSE BILL 1264, AS AMENDED.

AMENDMENT #2 revises various provision of this bill, as follows:

(1) Requires applicants for a concealed handgun permit to submit two sets of fingerprints, which will be sent to the TBI and the sheriff of the county in which the applicant resides. The sheriff will provide the department with any information regarding the truthfulness of the applicant's answers to eligibility requirements, and the TBI will conduct searches and records checks as provided for in present law;
(2) Revises the training requirements for the concealed permit (discussed above in (5) of the bill summary) to remove the reference to the NRA and instead refer to training that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by the state or an organization specializing in firearms training and safety; to require that the training must have been completed no more than one year prior to the application for the concealed permit; and to remove the provision whereby proof of demonstrated competence will not expire. This amendment also adds factors that the department will consider to determine that a firearms training or safety course class meets the requirements of this bill in regard to the concealed permit;
(3) Adds an concealed permit application fee of $65.00 (under this bill as introduced there was not fee for the permit);
(4) Requires that the concealed permit be a laminated card instead of a letter and specifies the information to be included on the card;
(5) Extends the provisions discussed above in (9) in the bill summary regarding regulation of permit holders by local governments to also apply to concealed carry permits; 
(6) Extends from five years to eight years the period of time for which a concealed carry permit will be valid; and
(7) Changes this bill's effective date from "upon becoming law" to "January 1, 2020".

AMENDMENT #3 adds the following provisions to this bill:

(1) A clarification that the permit holder must display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer; 
(2) Authorization for a state or local law enforcement officer, within the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, to disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer, or another individual. The officer must return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, the permit holder, or another individual; provided, that the permit holder has not violated this section or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder; and
(3) A requirement for an applicant to provide a signed printed copy of a form provided by the department stating that the applicant has read and understands the current state law on carrying handguns.

 

 

[Glock30]

So... what happens to existing HCP holders, especially Lifetime HCP holders? I dare say there's no mechanism or equation that's been thought out. 

[-boatman-]

I may be missing something but after the amendments were put in there I I can't see why they bothered passing this bill. 

[Garufa]

22 minutes ago, -boatman- said:

I may be missing something but after the amendments were put in there I I can't see why they bothered passing this bill. 

Because complicating things is what the TN legislature does when it comes to permits.

[Garufa]

Here is some interesting reading. 

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/2019/04/30/tennessee-concealed-carry-permit-training-handgun-ccw/3621210002/

[gfd_703]

I hope this doesn't screw us on reciprocity.

[AKVAT]

5 minutes ago, gfd_703 said:

I hope this doesn't screw us on reciprocity.

Your existing permit will continue to have the reciprocity it has today.  The big question is, will the new, lesser permit have reciprocity.  I think the answer is "no".  The reason we have reciprocity with many states on the existing permit, is because of the required training.  Since there is no standardized training on the lesser permit, I think the lesser permit holders will loose reciprocity.

[300winmag]

Unless a bill gets passed quickly before the end of the legislative session, people with what the 'enhanced' permits get absolutely nothing 'enhanced' out of the deal similar to other states such as Mississippi.  No college campus carry, no school carry, or any other reduced restrictions for the present carry permit/new enhanced that requires live fire. 

The whole deal is kind of pointless.  Pay 100 dollars for one carry permit with restrictions OR pay 65 dollars for a permit with more restrictions.

Did the NRA endorse and lobby for this bill instead of for reducing carry restrictions this year?

Edited May 3, 2019 by 300winmag

[Omega]

27 minutes ago, 300winmag said:

Unless a bill gets passed quickly before the end of the legislative session, people with what the 'enhanced' permits get absolutely nothing 'enhanced' out of the deal similar to other states such as Mississippi.  No college campus carry, no school carry, or any other reduced restrictions for the present carry permit/new enhanced that requires live fire. 

The whole deal is kind of pointless.  Pay 100 dollars for one carry permit with restrictions OR pay 65 dollars for a permit with more restrictions.

Did the NRA endorse and lobby for this bill instead of for reducing carry restrictions this year?

I don't know if they officially backed it, but they sure tried to sell it as a positive thing in their emails.  From the get go I didn't see the need for this, and now it sure seems worse.

[gregintenn]

12 hours ago, Glock30 said:

So... what happens to existing HCP holders, especially Lifetime HCP holders? I dare say there's no mechanism or equation that's been thought out. 

Sounds like we should be due a refund. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[MacGyver]

While I’d personally probably give them a bit of time to make it right, if it’s recent, you’ve probably got options with your ban or credit card company.  

[Oh Shoot]

10 hours ago, AKVAT said:

Your existing permit will continue to have the reciprocity it has today.  .... The reason we have reciprocity with many states on the existing permit, is because of the required training.  ...

Funny how two states dropped us as soon as the 18 year old exception was added, even though the training stayed the same.

Point being, there is no guarantee how other states will see this ... they might well simply lump all TN permits together as far as their decisions -- which might be to not honor them due to lack of training.  I can understand how a state wouldn't want to put up with their LE having to distinguish between two types of permits on the spot, eh?

Again, Nashville excels at doing badly what need not be done at all.

- OS

Edited May 3, 2019 by Oh Shoot

[owejia]

Small steps, babies crawl before they walk. I know Andy Holt and he is a 2nd Amendment  guy all the way. More people with carry permits  the shorter the time until we get Constitutional carry. What makes a so called journalist opinion any more valuable then yours or mine? If they think peons need more training to exercise their rights maybe the peons need to have a permit to read a book or magazine or listen to the bs put out by the media folks. Most all the wars I've ever read about started with some kind of speech by some one, never heard of one being started by a gun running out and shooting some one.  The press can control people by not telling the truth. No where in the Constitution is there a clause or warning about training before exercising your rights, remember that little phrase "shall not be infringed".

[DaveTN]

13 hours ago, Glock30 said:

So... what happens to existing HCP holders, especially Lifetime HCP holders? I dare say there's no mechanism or equation that's been thought out. 

Nothing happens. Nothing is changing for them.

[DaveTN]

45 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Sounds like we should be due a refund. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why would you want a refund?

[FUJIMO]

I read it and to me it means I keep what I've always had and nothing changes. Is the new law not for people wanting a lesser permit than what we have now ? (more money, training class, etc)

[DaveTN]

Here's what I see…

Reciprocity. Nothing will change with a EHCP but the name. So you will still have reciprocity with the states that allowed it before. Because no real training is required some states won’t recognize the CHCP; some will.

With the CHCP local government can prevent you from carrying on public property. With a EHCP they can only do that if they provide security.

With this will have to come legislation addressing open carry for CHCP.  So I assume they will have to deal with laws on Printing, improper exhibition, or brandishing. But maybe not, this bill doesn’t seem to address it.

The biggest stumbling block this bill has is that they are saying the state will lose over a million $ a year.

The original intent was to give poor people a chance at a permit. That quickly went out the window. But it will still cost them less.

[Magiccarpetrides]

This sounds like a complete waste of time...except for the part of it being free ...and honestly if you can't afford $100 your priority maybe shouldn't be carrying a weapon.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

3 hours ago, owejia said:

Small steps, babies crawl before they walk. I know Andy Holt and he is a 2nd Amendment  guy all the way. More people with carry permits  the shorter the time until we get Constitutional carry. What makes a so called journalist opinion any more valuable then yours or mine? If they think peons need more training to exercise their rights maybe the peons need to have a permit to read a book or magazine or listen to the bs put out by the media folks. Most all the wars I've ever read about started with some kind of speech by some one, never heard of one being started by a gun running out and shooting some one.  The press can control people by not telling the truth. No where in the Constitution is there a clause or warning about training before exercising your rights, remember that little phrase "shall not be infringed".

I guess making people pass a driving test to be able to legally drive on public roads is an unreasonable imposition too? 

If people who have no interest in learning how to properly handle and use a firearm want to "bare arms" on their own property they are not really a danger to anyone but their own family (and maybe their next door neighbors). But if they then decide to carry out in the world then they now will potentially effect everyone out in public "down range" from them. If they don't know how to safely handle a gun on a "one way square range" is it really a great idea for them to try to learn it on the fly on a 360 degree "hot range" which is what the outside real world is. Fortunately we do not see many instances of accidental discharges reported (but how many people actually report that though?) but I do know of one in Chattanooga where a young woman was killed when a negligently discharged bullet came through the wall of her apartment and hit her. 

And before anyone thinks they are going to "question my commitment to the cause" I have carried a gun on my person on a daily basis an average of about 360 days a year for the last 26  years (before some people on this forum were even born). If I'm awake I'm armed unless I have to go through a metal detector or unless I am outside the US in a country where I can not take my gun. I have actually used a gun to defend myself in public. I'm a founding member of my church's security team. I've spent 20 years working in the firearms industry. I am an NRA member, I'm an NRA instructor. I am a TN Handgun Carry Permit Instructor who started teaching the class in 1999.  I have voted against anti gun candidates in EVERY single election since I turned 18 in 1990 and I not only shoot competitively as a hobby but also teach people to shoot and to defend themselves with firearms while working for a nationally recognized training company for the last 15 years. And before you even say it ...no... "profit motive".... is not the reason I suggest people actually learn how to safely and effectively handle firearms before they carry them in public. It is simply what conscientious adult humans do. They do not potentially willfully, arrogantly and ignorantly endanger themselves and others out in public. 

 I get it. We all want the 2A to be an absolute written on stone tablets handed down from on high never to be infringed with law of the land. But the other side of that is the old "with power comes responsibility" thing. IF you are going to carry loaded guns in public you really should also be civically minded enough to learn how to use and safely handle them. Not just so that you are far more likely to actually effectively hit the bad guy in a lethal force incident but also so that you are far less likely to hit anyone OTHER than the bad guys.... or not hit yourself or others accidentally from a negligent discharge while handling the gun. (We saw something a while back where some guy shot and killed himself holstering his pistol while sitting in his car. ) 

I come down on this side of the argument. People have an absolute GOD GIVEN natural law of nature right to defend themselves. Period. On the other hand if they are using projectile weapons that can kill or wound people outside their physical reach they REALLY need to learn the safe handling of the weapon and proper use of it. On their own property they are far less likely to endanger others. Out in public now everyone  within range of the weapon is potentially in danger if the carrier does not know how to safely handle the gun they are carrying. Part of being an adult is recognizing the world does not revolve around us and that other people are effected by our decisions and actions. As such it is imperative that we (as defenders of the 2A and frankly just as conscientious adults) learn to safely handle objects that can cause crippling injury and death if we are going to carry them and possibly use them out in public. 

What I'd rather see than this watered down sad attempt at "pro gun legislation" is a 2 tiered system where a minimal amount of safe gun handling is covered and a minimal accuracy standard is required for the "basic permit" and that might be only $25-$50 ....or heck maybe even free ? (not sure how that unfunded mandate would be carried out).  Then have a REAL enhanced permit that requires a bit more training that really is actually ENHANCED where you can carry ANYWHERE (signs or not) and go about your daily life without having to worry about whether it is OK to carry here or there or in this business or that business or in this park or that.

 At a bare minimum they should remove any legal penalty for carrying past signage for people with a permit. The signs have never stopped the bad guys from carrying so why should the good guys be disarmed if the bad guys are not and if the location is not providing armed security and limited access? If  businesses don't like it they can still "trespass" you if they ask you to leave and you don't.  THAT would be an actual PRO 2A piece of legislation.  

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Defender]

12 hours ago, 300winmag said:

Unless a bill gets passed quickly before the end of the legislative session, people with what the 'enhanced' permits get absolutely nothing 'enhanced' out of the deal similar to other states such as Mississippi.  No college campus carry, no school carry, or any other reduced restrictions for the present carry permit/new enhanced that requires live fire. 

The whole deal is kind of pointless.  Pay 100 dollars for one carry permit with restrictions OR pay 65 dollars for a permit with more restrictions.

Did the NRA endorse and lobby for this bill instead of for reducing carry restrictions this year?

Mississippi's enhanced sounds like it IS enhanced...

[chances R]

I think one of the results that will affect all permit holders will be more posted property.  Terrible Bill with no good results IMO

 

[gregintenn]

36 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

I guess making people pass a driving test to be able to legally drive on public roads is an unreasonable imposition too? 

When the constitution is changed to read 'The right to operate a motor vehicle on a public roadway shall not be infringed', I would say "Yes".

[Moped]

I'm not a fan of this bill.  We got absolutely nothing out of it and if what OS said was true, that two states have already dropped us from reciprocity, then we went backwards!  One of the reasons I got a HCP was to be able to carry when outside the state on vacation.  Also I think some sort of minimal training is necessary.  Merely showing "competency" in my book is not enough!

[300winmag]

Mississippi's enhanced carry permit that requires the same live fire training class as Tennessee allows you to legally carry in K-12 and college buildings in Mississippi.  You don't have to worry about criminal weapons charges over 'no gun' signs either with an enhanced permit in MS.  We did not get that which makes this whole new 'enhanced' deal in Tennessee a complete joke.  People who went through live fire training in Tennessee continue to get nothing enhanced out of it.  

If you don't want to pay for a permit in Mississippi, you can just carry a handgun without a license concealed with some restrictions.  You can also get a license without any training that has some restrictions.

Edited May 3, 2019 by 300winmag